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Your POV on the historical Jesus

Jim

Nets of Wonder
... that is, everything Paul tells you about Jesus comes out of his own head.
It seems to me that his first impressions about Jesus would have come from the stories that he heard from Christians, while he was persecuting them, before he had his vision. Then it would have been influenced by what he heard from the other apostles, and his understanding of Hebrew scriptures.

Do you have some reason to think that none of what he learned about Jesus from the other apostles and other Christians comes through in his writings, or that none of it is useful for a better understanding of what Jesus said and did?
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
The search for the historical Jesus is well known to be one of the most problematic issues in Religious Studies - it's really hard to figure out exactly what, if anything, can be safely asserted about the historical Jesus.

What are you guys' opinions?
Did he exist?
What was he like?
What did he do and say?
I feel no great need to know the "real Jesus". I have a story, that I believe intends to present me with a revelation, and a promise: that the divine spirit of God exists in all of us, and that if we will allow it to guide us from within, it will heal us and save us from ourselves. And I have found that in my experience of life, this revelation and promise is true.

So what more do I need to know about the character in the story?
 

Sand Dancer

Currently catless
I disagree.

(And that's even if we're talking about Jesus the character in the Gospels)



The Sermon on the Mount includes some profoundly negative stuff. Parts of it are fine, but I don't think it would be a stretch to call parts of it evil.

I totally get it. He had some good and bad things to say. I can discard the bad and take the good. That's the beauty of not taking the Bible as literal and inerrant.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I see a lot of the opposite as well.
More really.
Tom

That’s got to do with those who are only Christian in name and not deeds and disobey the counsels of Jesus but His standards are the highest that exist. How many people can love their enemies or return good for evil? Even 2,000 years later Jesus set a standard which very few are able to reach.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It seems to me that his first impressions about Jesus would have come from the stories that he heard from Christians, while he was persecuting them, before he had his vision. Then it would have been influenced by what he heard from the other apostles, and his understanding of Hebrew scriptures.

Do you have some reason to think that none of what he learned about Jesus from the other apostles and other Christians comes through in his writings, or that none of it is useful for a better understanding of what Jesus said and did?
I think the fact that he made the assertion is more interesting than its strict truth. For a start, taking at face value his claim. immediately adjacent in Galatians 1, to have "persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it", he would necessarily have been exposed to the idea of what a Christian is and why such a person deserves persecution.

But also in Galatians 1 he says he spent a fortnight with Cephas / Peter; if so, as far as his writings show, he learnt almost nothing about Jesus' earthly mission and deeds. Does that mean that he spent his time there always talking and never listening?
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Right. And I asked Jim, later on, what he meant by his "technical term" "actual history". And this is what he said:

From that I gather that none of the historians in the short list I posted meets his preferred standard. With that I decided that I no longer have anything to contribute to this thread.
I think that what I said might have created a misunderstanding between us that I would like to try to clear up. I think maybe I need to tell you more about what I personally think. I think that the gospel stories are about a real physical person who lived a long time ago. I don’t take everything in the gospel stories as physical descriptions of what actually happened, but I trust what they say about what Jesus said and did, more than I would trust any historical view that is written using current methodologies. I think that those methodologies are designed to exclude from consideration what is at the heart and center of everything that Jesus said and did: The kingdom of heaven, and Himself as the way to that kingdom and the Lord of it. Excluding that from consideration guarantees that stories written about Him using current methodologies will always exclude what people most need to know about Him.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Quite why a crucified Jewish criminal of the Roman state, who had preached a subversive doctrine of social change and reversal, had come to be so regarded even by his earliest band of followers is the perplexing question.
Is there some reason for excluding from consideration the possibility that they got that idea from Jesus? For example, what makes it impossible that Jesus actually did say “Before Abraham was, I am”? What makes it impossible that the ideas about the Word in John 1 came originally from Jesus?
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I totally get it. He had some good and bad things to say. I can discard the bad and take the good. That's the beauty of not taking the Bible as literal and inerrant.
But you do see the difference between "the Sermon on the Mount is positive" and "I'm going ignore the negative parts of the Sermon on the Mount," right?
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
I think that what I said might have created a misunderstanding between us
Not to worry. Initially, I thought your view of written history was unreasonably narrow and I posted the list of ancient historians that your "narrow" view excluded, or so it seemed to me. Gradually, by paying attention to what you're saying, I see that either your view is becoming more reasonable or that my vision of your view is becoming clearer. ;) IMO, your principal interests and goals and mine, here in RF, differ significantly, but what the heck?! as the Rolling Stones sang: you can't always get what you want, eh? I suspect that you'd like to make bigger "nudges" than I do and in directions that are more noble than any of mine. Occasionally, I sense some frustration on your part that the results of your nudges don't seem to satisfy you, but that's probably my imagination speaking.

One thing that appears clear to me is that your Baha'i-leanings are different than those that "mainstream" Baha'i have. But, then, is there such a thing as "mainstream" Baha'i? My impression is that there is, but it's not an unmodifiable impression.

Excluding that from consideration guarantees that stories written about Him using current methodologies will always exclude what people most need to know about Him.
I'm sorry you think so, but neither surprised nor disappointed. I've had the advantage over most, here in RF and in the real world, (although I've hidden the talent that I received in my childhood far too long and don't have much time left to earn much of a profit from it by investing it now). My parents were married, but not to each other; and I was raised from the age of 3 months until just before my 12th birthday, by my biological father's wife, beginning when she was 61 years old. She was Deaf and had been since birth or infancy, and had probably the equivalent of a 3rd or 4th grade Deaf School education. She rescued me and changed the course that my life would have taken in a profound way. In fact, if it weren't for her, and a handful of others like her, I literally wouldn't be Terry Sampson, married, blessed, and living in Los Angeles today. I'd be John Sterling Mayfield,most likely miserable, alcoholic, dead and buried in Oklahoma. How did that happen? The Jesus she read about in the Scripture that you think is insufficient was sufficient for her.

Be well and prosper.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Is there some reason for excluding from consideration the possibility that they got that idea from Jesus? For example, what makes it impossible that Jesus actually did say “Before Abraham was, I am”? What makes it impossible that the ideas about the Word in John 1 came originally from Jesus?

Good question.

Some scholars, such as Richard Bauckham and Crispin H. T. Fletcher-Louis, do argue that - the latter of whom, for instance, holds in his study Jesus Monotheism: "in his historical ministry Jesus knew himself to be the pre-existent Son, and he taught his disciples this idea".

The next volume of this study is yet to be published, so I await it with interest.

The attestation of this belief in Jesus' divine personal pre-existence in the earliest Christian circles does strengthen the idea that the historical Jesus might have portrayed himself as a being who came into the world from the realm of God and had to some extent been an agent of creation.

As we know, this belief is prominent in the Gospel of John, the Pauline epistles and other New Testament texts.

But in the synoptic gospels, written quite a while after Paul, the recorded sayings of Jesus don't explicitly voice this idea, do they? There are oblique references, the "I have come" verses, which can be read as allusions to this idea of his coming into the world but it's nowhere as forceful and overt as in the Gospel of John.

For this reason, Larry Hurtado - amongst many other scholars - has contended that the source of this doctrine is to be sought in, "particularly powerful experiences of the risen/exalted Jesus that conveyed the conviction that God had raised Jesus from death and given him heavenly glory. From this, I contend, other beliefs quickly emerged, such as the belief that Jesus had, in some way, been “there” with God from creation (“pre-existence”)".

In this interpretation, Peter and the other early apostles were the ultimate source of this belief, courtesy of their revelatory experiences of the glorified, resurrected Christ and not the historical Jesus as depicted in the Gospel of John's discourses.

So, I guess it just depends upon which perspective you find more persuasive or plausible based upon the evidence.
 
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Jim

Nets of Wonder
The Jesus she read about in the Scripture that you think is insufficient was sufficient for her.
I might have miscommunicated again! I think that everything that anyone needs to know about Jesus is in the Bible, and that current academic methodologies are designed to exclude what people most need to know about Jesus from any story that historians write about Him. I think that everything he said and did was about His gospel of the kingdom of heaven, and Himself as the way to that kingdom and the Lord of it. I think that current academic methodologies are designed to make it impossible for historians to include that in their stories about a historical Jesus.
 

Galateasdream

Active Member
After seeing the myriad of viewpoints shared here, I should probably be willing to offer my own.

I should add the caveat, though, that like nearly all of my beliefs, my views on Jesus have changed a lot over time, and are therefore held tentatively and are subject to change. Who knows what I'll believe this time next year?

I think it likely that there was a historical Jesus of Nazareth, who was probably a very charismatic and memorable Jewish prophetic/apocalyptic preacher and miracle worker, who was connected in some way to The Baptist, and who built up a fair following and reputation. I also think it likely that his moral and religious teaching was somewhat radical and possibly subversive. I think it also possible that he embodied certain Messianic expectations (whether deliberately or not I don't know) and was believed by some to be a Messianic figure. I think he probably was crucified under Pilate and that his disciples came to believe he had risen from the dead in some manner.

I am open-mindedly agnostic on a number of theological issues such as: incarnation, virgin birth, miracles, resurrection. These may or may not have happened, I don't know how I can ever really have much confidence either way. I'm most inclined to accept miracles, least inclined to accept the virgin birth.

I think the Gospel accounts (and rest of NT) are likely a mixture of sone history, some quotations or paraphrases, and some embellishments, mistakes, legendary additions, reworkings and editing, misattributed quotes, various theological reflections and interpretations, and wholesale invention. I think it very hard to disentangle all these and have any confidence in which bits are which.

The 'historical Jesus', then, I think will always remain shrouded in mystery and conjecture, there simply isn't enough historical material to get any firm grasp on such an ambiguous and divisive figure.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
But you do see the difference between "the Sermon on the Mount is positive" and "I'm going ignore the negative parts of the Sermon on the Mount," right?

I wouldn't say it's a case of "ignoring" the more negative elements in the early Palestinian Jesus tradition, than it is recognising them as a product of the cultural / intellectual limitations of his background and time period.

When viewed in context with contemporary statements from other Jewish and pagan thinkers of the era, one can develop an understanding of why xyz belief would have emerged in the tradition - whether or not one deems it praiseworthy.

For example, the anti-family strain in the synoptic tradition, which critics of Jesus often cite as a negative.

"I have come to set a man against his father and a daughter against her mother" (Matthew 10:35).

All that stuff about setting sons against fathers and daughters-in-law against mothers-in-law - has a context in

(a) the historical Jesus's (evidently) poor personal experiences with his immediate relations

(b) the apocalyptic expectation of a new kingdom of God on the horizon that would radically abolish traditional ways of life, including family relations

(c) more significantly, the fact that the ancient patriarchal family structure / tribalism he was calling for people to reject / free themselves from, was a deeply regressive, inegalitarian and collectivist institution ("He who insults his father or his mother shall be put to death" (Exodus 21:17))

As an example, stoning to death a rebellious son in the Torah: "If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city...Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear of it and fear." (Deut. 21:18-21)

In the surrounding Greco-Roman culture, the sacred office of the family patriarch was perhaps even more important again. As the historian Proessor Larry Siedentop explained in his 2014 book entitled Inventing the Individual:


The [Roman] paterfamilias (father) was originally both the family’s magistrate and high priest, with his wife, daughters and younger sons having a radically inferior status.

Inequality remained the hallmark of the ancient patriarchal family. “Society” was understood as an association of families rather than of individuals.


Both male and female children were under the patria potestas of a paterfamilias, that is, under the control of a male head of a household. Women of all ages in Roman society were always under the guardianship until marriage, and in theory the patriarch had a power of life and death over the members of his household:


Patria Potestas

The elite landholding class built Roman law on the base of patria potestas, the life-and-death power of the father over his wife, children and slaves. This privilege was enshrined in the Twelve Tables of the Law, not to be rescinded until the 2nd century CE. [Lyttleton/Werner, 83] Legally, the Roman word familia referred, not to a family of kin, but to slave holdings: Familia derived from famuli, “slave,” and paterfamilias meant “father of slaves.” [Palmer, 117; Thomson, 92]

Is rejecting paternal and maternal authority in that kind of family context really a bad thing in the same way as calling for sons to break loose from modern, generally supportive nuclear families would be?
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
After seeing the myriad of viewpoints shared here, I should probably be willing to offer my own.

I should add the caveat, though, that like nearly all of my beliefs, my views on Jesus have changed a lot over time, and are therefore held tentatively and are subject to change. Who knows what I'll believe this time next year?

I think it likely that there was a historical Jesus of Nazareth, who was probably a very charismatic and memorable Jewish prophetic/apocalyptic preacher and miracle worker, who was connected in some way to The Baptist, and who built up a fair following and reputation. I also think it likely that his moral and religious teaching was somewhat radical and possibly subversive. I think it also possible that he embodied certain Messianic expectations (whether deliberately or not I don't know) and was believed by some to be a Messianic figure. I think he probably was crucified under Pilate and that his disciples came to believe he had risen from the dead in some manner.

I am open-mindedly agnostic on a number of theological issues such as: incarnation, virgin birth, miracles, resurrection. These may or may not have happened, I don't know how I can ever really have much confidence either way. I'm most inclined to accept miracles, least inclined to accept the virgin birth.

I think the Gospel accounts (and rest of NT) are likely a mixture of sone history, some quotations or paraphrases, and some embellishments, mistakes, legendary additions, reworkings and editing, misattributed quotes, various theological reflections and interpretations, and wholesale invention. I think it very hard to disentangle all these and have any confidence in which bits are which.

The 'historical Jesus', then, I think will always remain shrouded in mystery and conjecture, there simply isn't enough historical material to get any firm grasp on such an ambiguous and divisive figure.

Good post.. There really isn't much information about Jesus.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Out of curiosity, what did you do that someone had to die for?
The list is quite long. The biggest problem is that we judge ourselves by ourselves. In other words, we created our own standard or righteousness thinking that we know what that standard is. Yet every decade that passes, we change our standard.

Jesus addresses the standard... let me pick just one:

"You say that adultery is when you have sex with someone other than your spouse, I say you have committed adultery when you so much as look at someone else and lust after them because you became an adulterer in your heart". (paraphrased)

That pretty much makes just about everybody an adulterer. And that is just one item.

The standard is perfectness. In God there is no darkness at all.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I wouldn't say it's a case of "ignoring" the more negative elements in the early Palestinian Jesus tradition, than it is recognising them as a product of the cultural / intellectual limitations of his background and time period.

When viewed in context with contemporary statements from other Jewish and pagan thinkers of the era, one can develop an understanding of why xyz belief would have emerged in the tradition - whether or not one deems it praiseworthy.

For example, the anti-family strain in the synoptic tradition, which critics of Jesus often cite as a negative.

"I have come to set a man against his father and a daughter against her mother" (Matthew 10:35).

All that stuff about setting sons against fathers and daughters-in-law against mothers-in-law - has a context in

(a) the historical Jesus's (evidently) poor personal experiences with his immediate relations

(b) the apocalyptic expectation of a new kingdom of God on the horizon that would radically abolish traditional ways of life, including family relations

(c) more significantly, the fact that the ancient patriarchal family structure / tribalism he was calling for people to reject / free themselves from, was a deeply regressive, inegalitarian and collectivist institution ("He who insults his father or his mother shall be put to death" (Exodus 21:17))

As an example, stoning to death a rebellious son in the Torah: "If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city...Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear of it and fear." (Deut. 21:18-21)

In the surrounding Greco-Roman culture, the sacred office of the family patriarch was perhaps even more important again. As the historian Proessor Larry Siedentop explained in his 2014 book entitled Inventing the Individual:


The [Roman] paterfamilias (father) was originally both the family’s magistrate and high priest, with his wife, daughters and younger sons having a radically inferior status.

Inequality remained the hallmark of the ancient patriarchal family. “Society” was understood as an association of families rather than of individuals.


Both male and female children were under the patria potestas of a paterfamilias, that is, under the control of a male head of a household. Women of all ages in Roman society were always under the guardianship until marriage, and in theory the patriarch had a power of life and death over the members of his household:


Patria Potestas

The elite landholding class built Roman law on the base of patria potestas, the life-and-death power of the father over his wife, children and slaves. This privilege was enshrined in the Twelve Tables of the Law, not to be rescinded until the 2nd century CE. [Lyttleton/Werner, 83] Legally, the Roman word familia referred, not to a family of kin, but to slave holdings: Familia derived from famuli, “slave,” and paterfamilias meant “father of slaves.” [Palmer, 117; Thomson, 92]

Is rejecting paternal and maternal authority in that kind of family context really a bad thing in the same way as calling for sons to break loose from modern, generally supportive nuclear families would be?
Umm... what are you talking about?

We were talking about the Sermon on the Mount, not whichever part of the Gospels you were thinking of.

It's weird enough for you to assume that you know what I object to in the Sermon on the Mount without asking me, but absolutely bizarre that you would have assumed that my objections were about these anti-family themes that - AFAICT - aren't even in the Sermon on the Mount.

Edit: but getting back to the Sermon on the Mount, one of the objections I do have to it is that Jesus actually endorses and reinforces the traditions that you rightly point out are problematic:

Matt 5:17-19;

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place. 19 So anyone who breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever obeys them and teaches others to do so will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 
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