Your tolerance towards people in depression

[Badran]

The other is having expectations, or making assumptions, about the world, by projecting. People think the world hurts them, but this is not true.

This somehow blatantly ignores self-interest, though, and some biologically driven factors that to overcome one must basically forgo life, and some biologically driven factors that people actually have little to no say in.

It's reasonable to manage one's own expectations, and that might address one major cause for depression, but it's far from the only one. More importantly, to say that the world doesn't hurt people is to ignore the fact that people are by instinct, naturally, not neutral towards the subject matter. I'm not neutral towards someone i love getting raped and killed, for example, even though i realize it's possible to happen.

If i manage to maintain a reasonable expectation of the world based on what i know of it, when something like the above happens, i might be able to deal with it relatively better than others, but i'll still be devastated, because i don't want it to happen, and it could have not happened, also based on a reasonably developed expectation of the world. In fact, statistically, it was more likely not to happen than it was to happen, but i would've ended up being one of the less fortunate people to whom it has happened.

This is not to say that what you're talking about is devoid of merit, i understand the concept, but i think it's proposed to carry much more weight than it actually does, by ignoring crucial elements of the human nature, and by ignoring or downplaying some of the causes of depression that people have little control over.

 

[Penumbra]

Attempts to describe depression as one simple thing, with a corresponding simple solution, are naive. The human nervous system is enormously biologically complex; literally the most complex thing we know of in the universe so far.

When professionally diagnosed, depression is a multi-symptom thing. It's not just "sad feelings", with everything else functioning normally.

It also generally must include a subset of things like:
-Significant fatigue, lack of energy, like the body feels physically heavy and sluggish.
-Aches and pains throughout the body. Neurochemicals contributing to positive mood also extend into the spinal cord and contribute to bodily pain suppression, and that can apparently stop working.
-Insomnia.
-Irritability.
-A lack of interest and pleasure in things. Like, the body's reward system doesn't function well.
-Dulled sensations, dulled responses to stimuli.
-Difficulty concentrating.
-Thoughts of suicide.

So even when a depressed person isn't exactly "sad" about anything at the moment, their whole body might just feel terrible, with no energy, dulled response to stimuli, aches and pains due to lack of the body's normal pain-reliever effect, and the dopamine reward system might not be working well so positive feelings don't arise from activities normally associated with positive feelings.

So this idea that if they just change their mindset around it'll fix itself, or that there's one simple explanation for their depression, or that all depression is the same or similar, or that they're just sad about something, doesn't really have much to do with actual professionally diagnosed depression, the several types of diagnosable depression, and the complex cause and effect patterns that are going on to cause a multi-symptom issue. Naturally, treatment generally involves a multi-step approach, for such a complex and multi-symptom issue.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

As a depression sufferer myself (along with many other mental illnesses), I also experience a total and complete intolerance as the sufferer.

Discrimination and persecution is a constant, repetitive phenomena for me, so I know just how uninformed and ignorant many other people can be regarding this.

Yeah, I always get stuff like this:

"You really disappoint us. We had such high expectations of you and you let us down, thus your services are no longer required".

Yes, so whose fault is that then? I didn't ask you to think so highly of me, nor did I expect it. Maybe you should learn how to lower your own personal standards just a tad, eh?

"....but you are so intelligent! you should know better than to let your emotions rule your life. You should learn to control them".

Depression isn't about what you know, it's about what you feel. To say that 'only dumb/stupid people are candidates for depression' is an insult. Yes, we all make mistakes and sometimes depressed people tend to make a few more of them. It doesn't mean they are not intelligent, nor does it mean we can somehow 'control it at will'.

"....but you weren't like this last week, so why are you like it now? This only suggests to me that your 'depression' is something you can 'control' and you only use it as an 'excuse' to gain personal advantage/sympathy".

No, I was like this last week, but yes, I managed to control it a bit better then...maybe that's because I wasn't under so much stress and pressure that you are now piling on my head and if you want to see me back to 'normal' again, just leave me alone to do my own thing, okay?'.

"....but 'your own thing' negatively impacts all those around you...if you really do have a 'problem', why aren't you getting any help for it?"

It's because, as at this time, I cannot find any medication or health care professional useful or suitable for treating my condition, but yes, I am still exploring my options and choices. I apologise if my illness causes any inconvenience (usually, I find that the only 'inconvenience' is my depression reminding them of their own flaws and shortcomings as a human being).

"You are just so inconsistent....so unpredictable. I just don't have the patience to deal with this anymore and I can no longer be your friend, I am sorry".

I'm sorry that you feel that way, but depression will do that...here, would you like some 'reading material' that may help you understand me/my condition better? *person refuses.

"When will you ever understand this is not all about YOU?"

So, has it become all about YOU then?

"You deserve no 'special treatment' due to your mental illness, that's even IF you have one" (I gotta love this cliched response).

If by 'special treatment', you mean treating your fellow human with courtesy and respect, then yeah, I honestly feel that I 'deserve' that and so does everybody else! Singling me out like this is actually giving me 'special treatment' (unless you are an arrogant jerk ALL the time).

"You're just an 'attention seeker'. Nobody cares, so quit the drama lesson and move on".

Maybe if people actually cared in the first place, You wouldn't feel the need to criticise my 'performance' here, thanks.

"Your attitude really, really sucks! I'm sorry, but we cannot allow your continued membership in our sporting/social/church group".

Depression will do that too and if you cannot at least find the patience to understand this and be a little bit more 'supportive', I don't even want to be a member of your society anymore. I thought you were all about comeraderie, forgiveness and support. Apparently, I was gravely mistaken.

"We just don't have the facilities or expertise here to deal with 'your kind' so we strongly suggest you find another place that does'.

I can fully understand that and thank you for admitting it, but won't you at least consider it? Consider the fact people are 'different' and all have different emotional needs and concerns?

Yeah, if I had could actually afford a decent lawyer, I'd be pretty rich by now and could live off law suits.

Suffice to say, I have been 'dehumanised' so much by the rest of humanity, I now feel as if I have earned the right to totally excuse myself from it totally and completely, which only makes others think I am just being all 'stupid' and 'dramatic' again.

So, although I never go out of my way to be the 'obnoxious depressive', certain people just bring out that side in me.

 

[idav]

So, although I never go out of my way to be the 'obnoxious depressive', certain people just bring out that side in me.

I hardly ever know what to say to a depressed person without something coming out wrong, especially since a depressed person will likely paint whatever you say the color they want. I try to approach with as much compassion and patience as possible. It has taken quite some time to gather a list of things to definitely not say, your list is pretty darn good.

 

[idav]

Suffice to say, I have been 'dehumanised' so much by the rest of humanity, I now feel as if I have earned the right to totally excuse myself from it totally and completely, which only makes others think I am just being all 'stupid' and 'dramatic' again.

I can understand completely what you mean.

The Warmth - Incubus
chorus-
So don't let the world bring you down
Not everyone here is that ****** up and cold
Remember why you came and while you're alive
Experience the warmth before you grow old

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

I hardly ever know what to say to a depressed person without something coming out wrong, especially since a depressed person will likely paint whatever you say the color they want. I try to approach with as much compassion and patience as possible. It has taken quite some time to gather a list of things to definitely not say, your list is pretty darn good.

One of the main problems (as stated before), is that for some people, depression isn't their only illness, and other contributing factors may apply.

In my case, I have both depression and Asperger's Disorder in a constant battle for my psyche.

I also have Bi-Polar, OCD, GAD and about half a dozen different personality disorders, so what may treat depression, totally screws up any other mental condition that I have - this is why medication is totally ineffective.

It's difficult enough trying to 'frame words' to address a Depression sufferer...now, try doing that with a low-functioning Asperger's sufferer, and most people do not have the patience for this (as my above post shows).

The problem also becomes, that now I have excused myself from humanity, I can take an objective viewpoint on it (I have always been able to do that anyway).

I think I am about the only person alive who received written 'death threats' in kindergarten.....I made a post yesterday, explaining it all and what other human beings are like:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3694927-post11.html

The only friends I can make (and have ever made) are really, really old people.

The only 'social interaction' I get these days, is doing craft with the members from my mother's Senior Citizens club - I have never been forcibly ejected from that group yet.

They have the patience...they have the time and they know how to deal with 'problem people' like me.

I was also very close to my grandma, who also knew these things...

When a person is depressed, the last thing you should do, is make it 'all about them', even if you feel the person is only pretending to gain 'sympathy', because there's a huge difference between an 'attention seeker' and a genuine 'cry for help' and most people cannot understand the difference....that's why we have paid professionals who can.

Anyway, the way you deal with a depressed person, and what the old people know, is that when one is depressed, others need to take that person 'out of themselves' and not simply to become co-dependent to their problems.

As soon as they start whining about 'how unfair life is', give them something 'important' to do and praise them for doing it. Let them know that there's no rush and it doesn't matter how they do it, it doesn't have to be 'perfect'....just see that their self-esteem is on the outer and seek to rebuild it. Give them a job (like weeding the garden, polishing silverwear, hanging decorations etc) and tell them they are doing a 'good job' and their contribution is very important! also, try and 'change the subject' without being too noticeable or direct (old people have got that down to a 'fine art').

When they start whining, you can say something like 'I am sorry to hear you are experiencing this and I can listen to you for a while, but I also have other things to do...say, would you like to help me do them? You'd be a great help and I would be much obliged if you could...now what do you think about my new great grandson *takes out a baby photo from wallet*...isn't he just adorable? you could just eat him all up, no?'

Yeah...old people, gotta love 'em.

My Grandmother was also like this. I was basically 'born depressed' and had a negative view of humanity since I emerged from my mother's womb. My parents threw their hands up in desperation (when social workers started blaming them for my 'problems') and I was bundled off to live with my grandparents.

What Asperger's sufferers need is a set of 'ground rules' and a lot of consistency in enforcing them and in punishment.

The worst depressive, is a bored depressive, because then the mind can start chewing on itself, so Grandma gave me 'cooking lessons' and I helped make meals...I was given my own 'plot of garden' with seeds and a watering can and was told 'You own this piece of land now, so take good care of it', I was given many puzzle books and she helped me to do them and she took me out on picnics to parks, playgrounds and the like....this was something that nobody else had ever done, so I became a 'model child' and I was extremely well behaved....Social Services was very happy and so was everybody else.

Even though the above is very simplistic, this is how it works. Don't indulge a depressed person's depression, but remain concerned and the most important part is to help when you can, but also make the depressed person aware that there are limits to your ability to help.

Another thing depressed people like is when people are open and honest with /about them.

For most people now, they lack tact and diplomacy and 'honesty' takes the shape of 'brutal honesty' which is akin to being hit over the head with a baseball bat and depressed people hate this...especially when that person is 'beating around the bush' and playing 'mind-games' with them, instead of coming right out with it.

If you have problems with a depressed person, say something like 'I am sorry, but this isn't working out. I hope you can understand why and I wish you all the best in future, goodbye.' Rather than saying 'I have tried being patient with you, I have tried seeing things 'your way' but I cannot go on like this, so unless you 'change your attitude' right now, you can just clear out your desk and get lost. This is your final 'warning', do I make myself clear?'

We would much prefer being fired straight out, than having to endure all of that.

Just some things to consider...but again, I have gone into 'overtime' here. lol

 

[SoulDaemon]

Depression has a reason. And it varies a lot what u can do to help, we are individuals, what help u offer to one doesn't go with the other.

Straightforward opinions about the problem usually does the trick to get them open up and starting conversation about themselves. Let them know u are capable of discussing things honestly and without prejudice .

It's hard sometimes to get them open up about it; shame, self-loathing, anger. All these can stand in the way and sometimes they do not to allow themselves to express feelings. They think they do not have the right to feel sad or angry about things, it builds up, and voila they' are fu***d.

Usually all they need is for a other perspective to get them thinking over what ever is eating them up. Cause their thinking process stands still, and they can't see how to walk through the "door".

To lead them away from the ring of thoughts, and giving them ideas to corporate their own mind and thus having them solve the problem, that's the point.

For a depressed person the producing of different views on their own is hard. They start to see themselves inferior and then they cling to that one thought and go in circles.

 

[DreadFish]

You can put people's tolerance to depression to the test by handling the guns in the sports department at Wal-Mart and then asking where the anti-depressants are.

In all seriousness, though, depression (in my experience) has proven one of the easier human maladies to cure. I find depression is always a loss of self-image, a loss of identity, in some regard. For example if a man has owned a jewellery shop all his life, and he's all about 'the game' (selling jewellery), when he's eventually forced to retire, he may become depressed because he can no longer sell jeweller, he loses his identity. When people live their lives vicariously through their spouse, if that spouse leaves them or dies, they lose that identity and so may become depressed. A loss of self-image can also occur when you're raised with a value system that doesn't reinforce the individual. If someone raised you on the notion that if you do good, good things will happen to you, when something bad inevitably happens, you may become depressed because you lose your self-image. That's one way.

The other is having expectations, or making assumptions, about the world, by projecting. People think the world hurts them, but this is not true. It is really their own expectations and assumptions that they project onto the world that hurts them. H.G. Wells is a classic example of this, a man who was very bitter and depressed in his later years because he expected the world to lean more toward science than religion. When it didn't, he lose his faith in 'humanity' and became quite depressed and bitter. But the world hadn't done anything to him, it was his expectations of the world that had caused his depression.

If your husband or boyfriend or wife or girlfriend cheats on you, you may get very upset. You may say 'I expected more of him/her, you know?' (i hear this often) which is a mistake. Just because you have expectations of people or things, it doesn't mean that they will reflect those expectations at all. So why bother having any in the first place? What happens in the world happens, and what we think should or should not happen, is not real and is entirely inside our heads.

This is a somewhat disjointed and pidgin explanation, but it's an 'introduction' to the idea.

I think these may be more examples of mild, circumstantial depression. In the context of chronic, clinical depression, it can turn into a physical change in your brain, a different default state of functioning.

In regards to the topic in general:

In my experience, it's been anything but simple and straightforward. I dont remember what it's like to be generally happy and at ease as a natural disposition. The majority of the feelings I feel are pain or discomfort and most things that happen get automatically interpreted by my brain in negative ways even while I can rationally understand that they are not the way they seem; I also often have a hard time focusing and remembering things. There are a lot of things I can't do just because I can't psychologically hold up to it; it's really frustrating to be limited to what you can do just by the state of your brain., but im always trying to overcome it.

EDIT: oh and being tired all the time. How do you explain to people who want to go out with you that you're just too tired to do stuff without bringing up the potentially awkward fact that you live with clinical depression? I just end up seeming a bit weird for not wanting to do stuff with people because im "tired", even when I might really wish I felt better so I could do stuff with people. Most people dont get what it's like to be existentially tired

And this is all with meditation and mindfullness and tons of self-reflection. I definitely think I would be in a worse place without that.

In the past, paradoxically I've not always had much patience for depressed people. I think that it's just because I've felt depressed and not wanted to put up with someone else's feelings in addition to my own; sometimes it's probably because im thinking, here I am fighting and trying to work through this and here's this person being all sad and dysfunctional (of course, this is an agitated/depressed way of looking at it). But that's not always the case. Having gone through these things has also given me insight and compassion into other people's situations and allowed me to be a good listener and offer good advice.

I've been very fortunate that most people have been understanding of my depression. The worst i've dealt with is people just not understanding the severity of the way it affects me, but people have never been insulting or accused me of being fake about it. I've had to drop out of college because of it and all my teachers were very understanding and encouraging. Before I quit my last job, I ended up explaining to my boss that I had depression and he was very understanding because he had a family member who also had depression.

I think the main thing that makes a depressed person difficult is when they really wallow in their depression and have lot's of self-pity or try to get others to pity them. That makes a person difficult to deal with. However, sometimes it's hard not to have self-pity when you're depressed because it's one of the last things that makes you feel sort of alright.

Anyway, unless someone is being really blatant and basket-casey about their depression and overtly bringing others down because of the way they feel, I think they need people's compassion and understanding. Of course a basket-case needs compassion and understanding too, but usually in a tougher way than they'd like. Depression, as a chronic illness, is one of the hardest things to live with.

ANOTHER EDIT: there ought to be a thread for people with depression about "your tolerance toward people who dont know anything about depression and have never experienced it but still talk about it like they have studied it."

 

[zenzero]

Friend ametist,

What is your tolerance level towards someone who is in depression and trying to engage in anyone and anything aggressively and seeking attention negatively. How do you treat them, what do you do when you meet one of those people?
How often do you think you are meeting these people here and outside?

Though it long over 50 years in this life to figure out that there is no other as such its all one in various forms meaning the mind is unable to feed any rubbish have no depressions nor any change in behaviour and so responses are always positive.

The root of the problem is one's own mind and only vipassana or watching one's own mind is the way to disassociate with the mind and be detached and face no depressions or react negatively.

Love & rgds