Zero-point energy

[ChristineM]

In the form of a nothing a zero 0.... sure, you are correct.
The proof is that it's impossible to create, find or measure a perfect vacuum.

cool thread but I am not going to dig into the many flavors written in this chain.

I prefer forgetting what i have already found out.

Consider the true vacuum bubble.

Hypothetically it may be that our universe came from nothing

[1404.1207] Spontaneous creation of the universe from nothing

 

[Ostronomos]

Both of these concept can be explained with a simple addendum to classic theory and changing a basic assumption from the 1920's that is still with us. Einstein's theory of General Relativity altered the way we looked at space-time. It was previously thought to be flat; static and rigid, but Einstein showed that space-time could curve, bend, stretch, via gravity; General Relativity. Although the bending of space-time is still accepted today, and is widely proven, nobody until now has postulated that space-time can not only be bent, but it can also be broken into two; independent space and independent time. I call it the Heisenberg Certainty Principle.

Heisenberg states that there is a limit at which connected pairs of physical properties, such as position and momentum can be simultaneously known. This assumes there is only connected space-time than can bend and stretch. If you also assume space-time can also separate into two, you have an explanation for why we have the uncertainty principle and as well as why there are fluctuations in zero point energy. If space and time are acting separated, paired variable connected to space and time, will not be exactly related. The uncertainty comes from assuming space-time is unbreakable.

Energy requires time; frequency and space; wavelength to be connected. If we could break time and space apart, energy cannot exist, unless time and space bump, into each other, and temporarily remerge. This fluctuation shows space- time and separated space and time all existing together at the quantum level.

Entangled particles is about independent time, adding simultaneity, apart from the distance limitation and the speed of light.

The Heisenberg principle also asserts that an atom can never reach absolute zero.

A perfect vacuum can never be achieved because the conditions necessary to create such a vacuum defy the laws of nature on the quantum level. Thus a perfect vacuum would be equivalent to pure primordial platonic potential. The days of endless speculation are gone. We now know that our universe came from a realm of pure potential. What mysteries loom on the horizon?

Recall that reality can only give birth to itself, leading to the self-inclusion paradox. This is used somehow to logically demonstrate that a Being (call it God, Ein Sof, the One or what have you), is more real than the matter that appears before us in the world of illusion.

 

[exchemist]

The Heisenberg principle also asserts that an atom can never reach absolute zero.

A perfect vacuum can never be achieved because the conditions necessary to create such a vacuum defy the laws of nature on the quantum level. Thus a perfect vacuum would be equivalent to pure primordial platonic potential. The days of endless speculation are gone. We now know that our universe came from a realm of pure potential. What mysteries loom on the horizon?

Recall that reality can only give birth to itself, leading to the self-inclusion paradox. This is used somehow to logically demonstrate that a Being (call it God, Ein Sof, the One or what have you), is more real than the matter that appears before us in the world of illusion.

This is a misconception I have come across before.

Absolute zero is the temperature at which no more heat can flow out of a body. Since there are no energy levels below the ground state, no more energy can flow out once the system is in its ground state in all its degrees of freedom. In this condition zero point energy remains, but cannot be extracted.

Zero point energy can be thought of as due to the uncertainty principle, certainly. But zero point energy does not contribute to temperature, so its presence does not prevent attainment of absolute zero.

 

[ratiocinator]

A perfect vacuum can never be achieved because the conditions necessary to create such a vacuum defy the laws of nature on the quantum level.

Actually the zero point is considered to be a vacuum. Just to give you all something else to worry about, it might not be the lowest energy state possible, and may actually be a 'false vacuum', in which case, it is possible it might decay to a lower state. This could have catastrophic consequences.

False vacuum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The days of endless speculation are gone. We now know that our universe came from a realm of pure potential.

Not sure what you mean by this but I notice you're replying to @wellwisher. Sorry but his/her whole post is nonsense. There is no suggestion whatsoever that space and time could be separated and it has nothing to do with the uncertainty principle. The rest is just as nonsensical.

What mysteries loom on the horizon?

We don't know how to unify general relativity with quantum field theory. Hence we can't be sure of what our universe may have come from or if, as general relativity suggests, the space-time manifold didn't really come from anything, it's a 4-dimensional object that 'just is', time being no more than an observer dependant direction through it.

Recall that reality can only give birth to itself, leading to the self-inclusion paradox. This is used somehow to logically demonstrate that a Being (call it God, Ein Sof, the One or what have you), is more real than the matter that appears before us in the world of illusion.

Again this is just baseless. Another thing we can't answer, and maybe never will be able to answer, is why there is something rather than nothing. Clearly a god (of any sort) cannot explain this because it would have to be a 'something' that exists too.

 

[ratiocinator]

Although the bending of space-time is still accepted today, and is widely proven, nobody until now has postulated that space-time can not only be bent, but it can also be broken into two; independent space and independent time.

Probably because the mathematics simply doesn't allow us to make an absolute distinction at all. You simply can't identify any absolute boundary between space and time, that's really the whole point of relativity. What one observer regards as time and space is not generally the same as what another observer regards as time and space. This is even the case in 'flat' space-time and everyday relative speeds. Ignoring gravity, and assuming flat space-time, if two people stroll past each other with a relative speed of 4mph, then the difference in their versions of space and time, mean that what is happening simultaneously with their passing each other at the distance of the Andromeda galaxy (very close in terms of the observable universe) will differ by about 5.5 days.

I call it the Heisenberg Certainty Principle.

It's nonsense whatever you call it.

Heisenberg states that there is a limit at which connected pairs of physical properties, such as position and momentum can be simultaneously known. This assumes there is only connected space-time than can bend and stretch.

No, it doesn't. Standard QM (which incorporates the Heisenberg uncertainty principle) is based on very classical space and time (i.e. on treating them separately), quantum field theory is based on special relativity ('flat' space-time) but combining QFT with general relativity (curved space-time) is one of the big unsolved problems in physics.

If you also assume space-time can also separate into two, you have an explanation for why we have the uncertainty principle and as well as why there are fluctuations in zero point energy. If space and time are acting separated, paired variable connected to space and time, will not be exactly related. The uncertainty comes from assuming space-time is unbreakable.

The uncertainty principle is formulated by treating space and time separately, so you've got this totally backwards.

Energy requires time; frequency and space; wavelength to be connected. If we could break time and space apart, energy cannot exist, unless time and space bump, into each other, and temporarily remerge. This fluctuation shows space- time and separated space and time all existing together at the quantum level.

Entangled particles is about independent time, adding simultaneity, apart from the distance limitation and the speed of light.

Word salad.

 

[Ostronomos]

Again this is just baseless. Another thing we can't answer, and maybe never will be able to answer, is why there is something rather than nothing. Clearly a god (of any sort) cannot explain this because it would have to be a 'something' that exists too.

The answer to this is timeless emergentism. Where past, present and future all exist simultaneously. And future states collapse into images of past states. Thus reality is timeless and all changes (including the phenomenon of death) are illusion.

(Sorry I branched off from the previous topic).

 

[ratiocinator]

The answer to this is timeless emergentism. Where past, present and future all exist simultaneously. And future states collapse into images of past states. Thus reality is timeless and all changes (including the phenomenon of death) are illusion.

Not entirely sure what you're getting at here but the idea that the passage of time is an illusion and that past, present, and future all exist as one manifold fits exactly with general relativity.

Still doesn't answer the question though: why does the space-time manifold (all of space and time) itself exist, rather than noting, or something entirely different?

The question exists quite apart from time. It's not the same question as the time-based origin question at all.

 

[wellwisher]

Actually the zero point is considered to be a vacuum. Just to give you all something else to worry about, it might not be the lowest energy state possible, and may actually be a 'false vacuum', in which case, it is possible it might decay to a lower state. This could have catastrophic consequences.

False vacuum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Not sure what you mean by this but I notice you're replying to @wellwisher. Sorry but his/her whole post is nonsense. There is no suggestion whatsoever that space and time could be separated and it has nothing to do with the uncertainty principle. The rest is just as nonsensical.


We don't know how to unify general relativity with quantum field theory. Hence we can't be sure of what our universe may have come from or if, as general relativity suggests, the space-time manifold didn't really come from anything, it's a 4-dimensional object that 'just is', time being no more than an observer dependant direction through it.


Again this is just baseless. Another thing we can't answer, and maybe never will be able to answer, is why there is something rather than nothing. Clearly a god (of any sort) cannot explain this because it would have to be a 'something' that exists too.

Actually, if you assume, hypothetically and for the sake of argument, that space and time could be separate at the quantum level, since position and momentum, reflect space and time (there is no momentum without time), respectively, they would act like they were not connected, and therefore could not both be measured at the same time. One could still measure one or the other, but with both acting separate, they are not exactly pair or connected, to be measured together with perfect precision. It was so obvious and simple it was hidden from view

All the physics we currently know is a derivative of the golden age of Physics from the 1920's. Physics needs a boost to get beyond that 100 year slump. This simple change can be used to explain many things that are now paradoxical in the quantum state due to classic assumptions. The flucuation in zero point energy, can be explained if space and time are not connected. This would imply that wavelength; space, and frequency; time; would be two other variables we cannot measure together, at the quantum level since they reflect time and space not being always connected. Simplicity is closest to perfection.

This premise of separated space and time can also explain before time=0, which currently is the limit of Physics due to the classic assumption of space-time. Time=0 is when space-time connects and pairs, except at the quantum level, where there is still residuals of broken space-time. If you could move in space apart from time, you would be omnipresent, which is a classic attribute of God. Separated space and time is not limited to any speed, including the speed or light, as these two concepts only apply to connected space-time. If we break speed; d/t to d and t, that are not connected, the speed limit disappears; warp speed which is a misnomer since this is not speed but distance potential apart from time.

This assumption also allow you to start the universe from nothing, with nothing implicit of all the laws and materials of connected space-time; the uncertain becomes certain.

This theory can also interface consciousness. We can imagine things that are not real in terms of the laws and rules of space-time; gods. This thought uncertainty with respect to tangible reality, occurs because the human brain can process disconnected space and time. It can see the future before it appears in space. I should have been born a hundred years in the future.

 

[exchemist]

Easy the descent to quantum woo (to paraphrase Virgil).

Facilis descensus woo quanti?

 

[ratiocinator]

Actually, if you assume, hypothetically and for the sake of argument, that space and time could be separate at the quantum level, since position and momentum, reflect space and time (there is no momentum without time), respectively, they would act like they were not connected, and therefore could not both be measured at the same time. One could still measure one or the other, but with both acting separate, they are not exactly pair or connected, to be measured together with perfect precision. It was so obvious and simple it was hidden from view

I've already covered this nonsense in #25. Standard QM (as opposed to QFT) does treat space and time separately. It's very classical in that sense. However, we know from even special relativity (which the more accurate QFT uses) that we can't separate space and time. They can't be totally disconnected anyway as we would then not perceive both at once.

We also need space and time to measure momentum because it has dimensions of M L T⁻¹ (see: Dimensional analysis).

All the physics we currently know is a derivative of the golden age of Physics from the 1920's. Physics needs a boost to get beyond that 100 year slump. This simple change can be used to explain many things that are now paradoxical in the quantum state due to classic assumptions. The flucuation in zero point energy, can be explained if space and time are not connected. This would imply that wavelength; space, and frequency; time; would be two other variables we cannot measure together, at the quantum level since they reflect time and space not being always connected. Simplicity is closest to perfection.

This premise of separated space and time can also explain before time=0, which currently is the limit of Physics due to the classic assumption of space-time. Time=0 is when space-time connects and pairs, except at the quantum level, where there is still residuals of broken space-time. If you could move in space apart from time, you would be omnipresent, which is a classic attribute of God. Separated space and time is not limited to any speed, including the speed or light, as these two concepts only apply to connected space-time. If we break speed; d/t to d and t, that are not connected, the speed limit disappears; warp speed which is a misnomer since this is not speed but distance potential apart from time.

This assumption also allow you to start the universe from nothing, with nothing implicit of all the laws and materials of connected space-time; the uncertain becomes certain.

This theory can also interface consciousness. We can imagine things that are not real in terms of the laws and rules of space-time; gods. This thought uncertainty with respect to tangible reality, occurs because the human brain can process disconnected space and time. It can see the future before it appears in space. I should have been born a hundred years in the future.

This is just a mixture of meaningless word salad and baseless, unargued assertions.

Current theories are formulated in mathematics and can therefore make precise, numerical predictions that can be precisely tested. You can't challenge that with vague hand-waving, that attempts to undermine already tested models.

Unless you can formulate all of this in exact mathematics that explains exactly why the models we already have work so well, you have nothing.

 

[Ostronomos]

Easy the descent to quantum woo (to paraphrase Virgil).

Facilis descensus woo quanti?

What's it like perched on your high horse?

What I said was very logical.

 

[ratiocinator]

What I said was very logical.

Why do you think he was talking about you?

Your OP was just plain mistaken and didn't mention quantum mechanics, neither did your most recent post before. @wellwisher's post before, on the other hand....

 

[exchemist]

What's it like perched on your high horse?

What I said was very logical.

I may get round to criticising you later.