Zero Probability of Evolution. Atheism wrong?

[SkepticThinker]

So what if God does exist even IF you don't see (know) him? Are you going to argue evidence when others saw him and you didn't? Faith is "hope" in things unseen (or unknown). I "hope" the car coming towards me on a two lane road doesn't hit me headon. My "faith" is that he won't. You just fail to see how faith and hope is used in the mind.

Depends on the evidence. I haven't seen any that convinces me of the existence of god(s) but I can't speak for anyone else. If you've seen enough evidence to convince you, then you should probably believe in that God. I haven't seen it.

To me, an invisible God that makes no discernible impression on reality is pretty much the same as no God.

And to me, faith is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have a good reason. If you had a good reason, you would use that instead.

 

[Phantasman]

"Something" being of course, "god"itself.

What a psycho excuse for a "god".

I've met a lot of atheists and understand their disbelief yet still respect them. You are not an atheist, IMO, but a conformed hater of any God concept. Atheism isn't a hatred of God, just a disbelief in a deity. To hate God with name calling says you see (a) God, or you wouldn't have a concept to what name to call him.

Atheists are not God haters.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I've met a lot of atheists and understand their disbelief yet still respect them. You are not an atheist, IMO, but a conformed hater of any God concept. Atheism isn't a hatred of God, just a disbelief in a deity. To hate God with name calling says you see (a) God, or you wouldn't have a concept to what name to call him.

Atheists are not God haters.

Once again you conflate your mythical version of "God" with all versions of God. Just because someone recognizes that another worships an evil "God" does not mean that they hate all versions of God.

Tell me, how does hating evil preclude someone form being an atheist?

 

[Phantasman]

Sorry, but that is an equivocation fallacy on your part. You are conflating hope and faith with conclusions based upon experience.

The fact that theists in general cannot consistently use the word "faith" indicates that they know their religious faith is without merit.

ees,
Makes no sense. Christianity is a path. It begins and one travels it in the faith and hope of where it arrives. Like any path. people deviate, return to the start, sit, climb trees, whatever. You may join group of people and just follow wherever the head person leads them. It is the same thing Jesus taught in the "seed" concept. Many Atheists see the seed (word of God) and it remains nothing more than a seed. (cast onto rocks, per the parable). I took the seed and gave it fertile ground to grow (spiritual gnosis). That's the difference. Nothing more.

 

[Phantasman]

Once again you conflate your mythical version of "God" with all versions of God. Just because someone recognizes that another worships an evil "God" does not mean that they hate all versions of God.

Tell me, how does hating evil preclude someone form being an atheist?

You are correct. I see much of the Demiurge acting as God, especially in the OT. Christ came to teach man of the true God. It was the first time man was given the truth (of the true God). Jesus even told the Jews that they were following the devil (John 8). The orthodox church has kept this God alive and misrepresent the teaching of Christ. The very reason that the early catholic church fathers resorted "lying and murdering" to build their world religion.

John 8:44

How can such an ideology profess Christ, who never lied or murdered?

Perception is the key. Only the Spirit rewards us with the true image, if we seek it for ourselves, rather than following those who "say" they have know it.

 

[Audie]

I've met a lot of atheists and understand their disbelief yet still respect them. You are not an atheist, IMO, but a conformed hater of any God concept. Atheism isn't a hatred of God, just a disbelief in a deity. To hate God with name calling says you see (a) God, or you wouldn't have a concept to what name to call him.

Atheists are not God haters.

Of course,you say you understand atheists, but based on other things you say, I'd guess you are equally clueless.


Lets say you have someone who dangles you over a tank of acid, then
helpfully says that if you just obey every capricious and artibrary
rule that he sets, he will "save" you. Psycho enough?

IF you had a clue about atheism you'd understand that when speaking of
"god", and its behaviour, we are describing a character in a semi-historical
novel.

That is it; that is all.

It is 100% absurd to think I or any sane person could "hate" a fictional character
in a novel.

"says you see a god"? Blather! You amazing lack of analytical ability
is what says something. Specifically, about how seriously your words
can be taken. As in, "not very"

Spirit rewards us with the true image,

Oh, right. We see it on display, even.

Calling the behaviour of your made-up "god" character psycho is somehow
acknowledging its actual existence?

How about the Aztec "gods" who needed human sacrifice?
Charming and reasonable fellows, withal, or, rather unpleasant
beings that exist only in imagination?

Any one word you might have for the character of those "gods"?

Careful, you may "see" their existence, display hate, and call names.

 

[gnostic]

You underscore my point, "People who know God don't walk away, people who didn't know God but only had a church, do" by stating, "I really had relationship with the churches and with the ministry and with the people at the church, but not with God."

My hope is for you to have a relationship with God, someday. Does that make sense to you?

No one “know” god, just as no one really have “relationship” with god.

All they “know” is they believe they think they “know” God.

And all they know is what it say in the bible say, and what the church say. And all that are hearsay.

Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses, if these people exist, may have “relationship” with god, therefore they may “know”, but everyone one else, today, only what the bible say, which are most likely not even true stories, because we don’t know if these people exist.

That’s called “faith” in their beliefs, that’s not really “relationship”, so people actually don’t know God.

 

[ChristineM]

I've met a lot of atheists and understand their disbelief yet still respect them. You are not an atheist, IMO, but a conformed hater of any God concept. Atheism isn't a hatred of God, just a disbelief in a deity. To hate God with name calling says you see (a) God, or you wouldn't have a concept to what name to call him.

Atheists are not God haters.

You appear to be confusing the myth with the evangelical followers of that myth..
Atheism has no belief in that myth, to hate that myth is on a par with hating harry potter.
However the followers of that myth can be and often are vindictively hateful (occasionally violent) to people (not only atheists) who do not bow down to that myth. And the favour is often returned in kind.

 

[Phantasman]

Of course,you say you understand atheists, but based on other things you say, I'd guess you are equally clueless.


Lets say you have someone who dangles you over a tank of acid, then
helpfully says that if you just obey every capricious and artibrary
rule that he sets, he will "save" you. Psycho enough?

IF you had a clue about atheism you'd understand that when speaking of
"god", and its behaviour, we are describing a character in a semi-historical
novel.

That is it; that is all.

It is 100% absurd to think I or any sane person could "hate" a fictional character
in a novel.

"says you see a god"? Blather! You amazing lack of analytical ability
is what says something. Specifically, about how seriously your words
can be taken. As in, "not very"

Spirit rewards us with the true image,

Oh, right. We see it on display, even.

Calling the behaviour of your made-up "god" character psycho is somehow
acknowledging its actual existence?

How about the Aztec "gods" who needed human sacrifice?
Charming and reasonable fellows, withal, or, rather unpleasant
beings that exist only in imagination?

Any one word you might have for the character of those "gods"?

Careful, you may "see" their existence, display hate, and call names.

And that is merely your view. Not everyone see's what you see. Not everyone see's what I see.

Going backward rather than forward diminishs spiritual truth. Human sacrifices? Animal sacrifices? Jesus sacrificing life for what lies ahead? It's a much bigger picture than you are willing to see, at least by what you orate.

People don't give their lives to nonsense. You may think so. But the person giving it doesn't think so.

I don't argue God. It appears you want to. I merely state why I believe. And it goes deeper (in MY mind) to benefit me personally. I neither expect you (or anyone) to believe or accept it. It matters not to me, at all.

 

[Phantasman]

You appear to be confusing the myth with the evangelical followers of that myth..
Atheism has no belief in that myth, to hate that myth is on a par with hating harry potter.
However the followers of that myth can be and often are vindictively hateful (occasionally violent) to people (not only atheists) who do not bow down to that myth. And the favour is often returned in kind.

I do not hate anyone. Christianity is a theology broken into different ideologies. I see the same in atheism. Atheism is a lack of theology. Different ideologies give different meanings. Each ideology has their follows.

I disagree with many who identify themselves as Christians for the same reasons many atheists refuse to accept their "ideologies". Gnosis attracts through knowledge, and doesn't use the carrot and stick method of orthodoxy (heaven and hell). The knowledge shows the imperfect and perfect. The truth and the ignorance.

"Ignorance is the mother of all evil. Ignorance will result in death, because those who come from ignorance neither were nor are nor shall be. [...] will be perfect when all the truth is revealed. For truth is like ignorance: while it is hidden, it rests in itself, but when it is revealed and is recognized, it is praised, inasmuch as it is stronger than ignorance and error. It gives freedom. The Word said, "If you know the truth, the truth will make you free" (Jn 8:32). Ignorance is a slave. Knowledge is freedom. If we know the truth, we shall find the fruits of the truth within us. If we are joined to it, it will bring our fulfillment." -Gospel of Philip

I just happen to like and understand such theology. Some liked the theology/ideologies of Hitler. It's just a life choice, nothing more. The benefits have outweighed the liabilities many times over for me. So why would I even think about giving it up?

 

[Audie]

And that is merely your view. Not everyone see's what you see. Not everyone see's what I see.

Going backward rather than forward diminishs spiritual truth. Human sacrifices? Animal sacrifices? Jesus sacrificing life for what lies ahead? It's a much bigger picture than you are willing to see, at least by what you orate.

People don't give their lives to nonsense. You may think so. But the person giving it doesn't think so.

I don't argue God. It appears you want to. I merely state why I believe. And it goes deeper (in MY mind) to benefit me personally. I neither expect you (or anyone) to believe or accept it. It matters not to me, at all.

On a grant proposal, such as you write would be found
"unresponsive" and the thing would be circular-filed.

 

[ChristineM]

I do not hate anyone. Christianity is a theology broken into different ideologies. I see the same in atheism. Atheism is a lack of theology. Different ideologies give different meanings. Each ideology has their follows.

I disagree with many who identify themselves as Christians for the same reasons many atheists refuse to accept their "ideologies". Gnosis attracts through knowledge, and doesn't use the carrot and stick method of orthodoxy (heaven and hell). The knowledge shows the imperfect and perfect. The truth and the ignorance.

"Ignorance is the mother of all evil. Ignorable will result in death, because those who come from ignorance neither were nor are nor shall be. [...] will be perfect when all the truth is revealed. For truth is like ignorance: while it is hidden, it rests in itself, but when it is revealed and is recognized, it is praised, inasmuch as it is stronger than ignorance and error. It gives freedom. The Word said, "If you know the truth, the truth will make you free" (Jn 8:32). Ignorance is a slave. Knowledge is freedom. If we know the truth, we shall find the fruits of the truth within us. If we are joined to it, it will bring our fulfillment." -Gospel of Philip

I just happen to like and understand such theology. Some liked the theology/ideologies of Hitler. It's just a life choice, nothing more. The benefits have outweighed the liabilities many times over for me. So why would I even think about giving it up?

I did not necessarily mean you,

"Atheism is a lack of theology" wow, that's a real brain buster.
Atheism : disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
Anything else is just individual foibles.

No need for the sermon, and i did not ask you to give it up, you are welcome to whatever faith suits you.

But your post in no way addressed the point of mine so i will repeat it
"You appear to be confusing the myth with the evangelical followers of that myth.
Atheism has no belief in that myth, to hate that myth is on a par with hating harry potter.
However the followers of that myth can be and often are vindictively hateful (occasionally violent) to people (not only atheists) who do not bow down to that myth. And the favour is often returned in kind."

 

[Phantasman]

I did not necessarily mean you,

"Atheism is a lack of theology" wow, that's a real brain buster.
Atheism : disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
Anything else is just individual foibles.

No need for the sermon, and i did not ask you to give it up, you are welcome to whatever faith suits you.

But your post in no way addressed the point of mine so i will repeat it
"You appear to be confusing the myth with the evangelical followers of that myth.
Atheism has no belief in that myth, to hate that myth is on a par with hating harry potter.
However the followers of that myth can be and often are vindictively hateful (occasionally violent) to people (not only atheists) who do not bow down to that myth. And the favour is often returned in kind."

the·ol·o·gy
THēˈäləjē/
noun

1. the study of the nature of God and religious belief.
   • religious beliefs and theory when systematically developed.
     plural noun: theologies

Webster says:
:1. the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world
2a : a theological theory or system

• Thomist theology

• a theology of atonement

b : a distinctive body of theological opinion

• Catholic theology

: a usually 4-year course of specialized religious training in a Roman Catholic major seminary

So how are atheists theologists when it studies something they refuse to believe?

Answer this before I tackle your "myth" questioning.

 

[ChristineM]

the·ol·o·gy
THēˈäləjē/
noun

1. the study of the nature of God and religious belief.
   • religious beliefs and theory when systematically developed.
     plural noun: theologies

Webster says:
:1. the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world
2a : a theological theory or system

• Thomist theology

• a theology of atonement

b : a distinctive body of theological opinion

• Catholic theology

: a usually 4-year course of specialized religious training in a Roman Catholic major seminary

So how are atheists theologists when it studies something they refuse to believe?

Answer this before I tackle your "myth" questioning.

I never said atheist were theologists, i did say that your comment "Atheism is a lack of theology" is a face palm statement.

So what has atheism to do with religious belief, which is not part of the definition?

And refuse to believer? In what a ghost story, a myths. Its not a refusal to believe, it is simply that there is nothing to believe.

And still you have not addressed my post

"You appear to be confusing the myth with the evangelical followers of that myth.
Atheism has no belief in that myth, to hate that myth is on a par with hating harry potter.
However the followers of that myth can be and often are vindictively hateful (occasionally violent) to people (not only atheists) who do not bow down to that myth. And the favour is often returned in kind."

Why does this not surprise me?

 

[Phantasman]

I never said atheist were theologists, i did say that your comment "Atheism is a lack of theology" is a face palm statement.

So what has atheism to do with religious belief, which is not part of the definition?

And refuse to believer? In what a ghost story, a myths. Its not a refusal to believe, it is simply that there is nothing to believe.

And still you have not addressed my post

"You appear to be confusing the myth with the evangelical followers of that myth.
Atheism has no belief in that myth, to hate that myth is on a par with hating harry potter.
However the followers of that myth can be and often are vindictively hateful (occasionally violent) to people (not only atheists) who do not bow down to that myth. And the favour is often returned in kind."

Why does this not surprise me?

What is atheism to you? To me, atheism is to not believe that a deity exists. No divine. no creator, no supreme being. It doesn't matter if one follows or hates evangelicals. Just to acknowledge them gives an insight to their existence. Muslims don't bow down to evangelicals. Does that make them atheists?

You miss the point, IMO. Some confuse agnostic with atheist. You make a better case for agnostics.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

You are a bit clearer now:

"Trust documents that are hundreds of years old if they're correct, like the Bill of Rights, but don't trust any ancient document that tells us how to live, if it interferes with my freedom."

Yet you know of military heroes who died on fields of battle to uphold your Bill of Rights freedoms--they chose to not be free of service to keep you free. Yet you know the British invaded America in 1812 and burnt our capitol and tried to undo the Bill. Yet you know the Bill of Rights and so much more is based on the much-more liberated freedom held by the children of God, who've trusted Jesus for salvation . . .

Obviously not! I never mentioned "trust" or "correct". I said that one document enslaves personal freedoms, and the other protects personal freedoms. I said that one document can be challenged, and the other can't. Also, simply rephrasing what I said doesn't help either. There are only two places in the Constitution where religion is referenced(only as a formality). The only place where Religion is specifically mentioned in the Constitution, is where it prohibits the imposition of any religious tests for public offices(Art.VI, Sect. 3). Regarding the influence of the Bible and the Government, I agree. The Bible and Government - Faith Facts . But, I think we're drifting away from the central theme of this strand. Don

 

[ChristineM]

What is atheism to you? To me, atheism is to not believe that a deity exists. No divine. no creator, no supreme being. It doesn't matter if one follows or hates evangelicals. Just to acknowledge them gives an insight to their existence. Muslims don't bow down to evangelicals. Does that make them atheists?

You miss the point, IMO. Some confuse agnostic with atheist. You make a better case for agnostics.

It does not matter what an atheist is to you or me, it is well defined

What point, agnostics were not in question

 

[BilliardsBall]

So what you're saying is that unless someone is absolutely perfect, they deserve to be tortured forever (unless that person happens to repent at an appropriate time, even if that person is a lifelong child rapist, in which case they get eternal reward). How could you possibly believe that such a system is moral? It is clearly and grossly immoral.

Is it moral to reward a lifelong paedophile just because they repented in the last few seconds of their life? What is their punishment for a lifetime of paedophilia?

Jurisprudence, justice and appropriate punishment/correction are somewhat subjective, but Heaven and Hell are objective:

1. Imperfect people cannot be citizens of a utopia
2. Heaven is a place of bliss where imperfect people are disallowed (from thwarting utopia)
3. Jesus will transform the trusting to perfect, and consign the imperfect to Hell, outside the new, perfect Heaven and Earth/Universe

Not only will a rapist not be in Heaven, liars won't be there (Revelation 22) and studies show the average adult tells 2-3 untruths daily, consciously. What you're really asking is "How is it just for God to transform a rapist to be perfected?" yet the scripture explains that all persons are liars, all are sinners.

It is unjust to take a paedophile to Heaven, sure (rapists and murderers get saved frequently, but paedophiles do NOT, by the way--consider what Jesus said about causing children to stumble).

It is ALSO unjust to take an average nice guy to Heaven, as if he deserves eternal bliss! I thank God that He decides, univocally, by making Christ the measuring rod (whether you or not you trust God, period). If you were in charge, you would allow unredeemed sinners to Heaven/imperfect people, demolishing utopia...

 

[BilliardsBall]

You brought up fidelity in your attempt to discredit atheism,.

So are you saying fidelity is not a factor in Christian marriage?

I would guess that i know many more atheist than you do, i find them far more moral than almost any christian i have ever met. Thats human morality, not the selective Christian morality that was hijacked and bastardised to exclude any none christian.

IlI take human morality of th christian version anytime.

In my opinion/understanding, atheists break at least 8 of 10 commandments in the decalogue. So saying they are moral or immoral is a subjective perspective, but saying atheists are far more moral than Christians isn't a biblical perspective.

Nor have I met atheists who love their enemies. Nor have I met atheists who lay down their lives for others. Nor have I met atheists who give financially to the church/charity when it hurts, etc.

 

[BilliardsBall]

People who end dating relationships because they find that they are incompatible are moral losers? How's that?

No, this was after a lot of F&%*%$@, first. Losers.