Zero Probability of Evolution. Atheism wrong?

[Subduction Zone]

Let us add then, "If God exists," only foolish people would disobey God.

Or moral people, if that God is immoral.

 

[Audie]

Why is disobeying God wrong? And that was not the topic anyway. The topic was morals. What if your God is evil, are you to obey him then? Would that not make you evil too? You appear to have a rather hazy understanding of morals.

Come on now, the definition of right and wrong is always
whatever (someone decides) that "God" says. And "God"?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Come on now, the definition of right and wrong is always
whatever (someone decides) that "God" says. And "God"?

The problem with that is that it leads to a subjective morality that is inferior to the morality of most atheists. I am trying to ascertain how poor BilliardsBall morals are.

 

[Audie]

The problem with that is that it leads to a subjective morality that is inferior to the morality of most atheists. I am trying to ascertain how poor BilliardsBall morals are.

Of course it is inferior, But your bible people are never going to see that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Of course it is inferior, But your bible people are never going to see that.

"My" Bible people? I know, just a figure of speech, but I claim NO ownership at all.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

skeptics will not open the door to moral absolutes, with their implication for a god.

There is no evidence for moral absolutes. Nor is there any for objective morality.

The best you can do is name human-invented morals that have become moral universals - subjective values unanimously agreed upon. They remain neither objectively true nor absolute.

Disobeying God is always wrong and always stupid (if a God exists who lays down rules).

Yes, and disobeying Odin would also be stupid if He existed.

How would you feel about a person disobeying the alleged will of Odin today? Stupid?

Independent of the Bible, rape is always wrong.

The Bible condones rape, and in some places, commands it. Doesn't that conflict with your claim that opposing rape is a moral universal. It's not Jehovah's opinion.

You have no chance of making any progress with the skeptics here if you cannot demonstrate a god or moral values residing anywhere but in the heads of sentient earthlings. What you believe is of interest to you alone, not to skeptics, who need a reason to believe beyond the mere will to do so. They care about what you know and can demonstrate.

Until you can provide evidence to substantiate your claims, they are regarded as opinion, and there is nothing left to discuss. It's like a discussion that begins with you saying that chocolate is better than vanilla, without demonstrating why. That's the end of that. Great. You like chocolate.

Who can use that information apart from somebody planning to surprise you with a quart of ice cream?

 

[Phantasman]

My doctrines come from the scriptures.

The Spirit is God is the Spirit of Jesus Christ and not "she".

You need to investigate further the Aramaic language. Jesus spoke Aramaic. Spirit, like Hebrew, is feminine. Translated to Greek and Latin, it became masculine.

Read the scriptures carefully. The Holy Spirit is the mother. If we are to become "sons" of God, who is the mother?

It was the voice of the Holy Spirit that entered Jesus that people heard "this is my son". Jesus said we have never heard the Fathers voice or seen his shape. Once Jesus was glorified, he was able to give us the mother as well.

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.- Luke

Mark 3:
32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

Luke:
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


The Gospel of Thomas says it more clearly:
(55) Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate his father and his mother cannot become a disciple to me. And whoever does not hate his brothers and sisters and take up his cross in my way will not be worthy of me."
(101) <Jesus said,> "Whoever does not hate his father and his mother as I do cannot become a disciple to me. And whoever does not love his father and his mother as I do cannot become a disciple to me. For my mother [...], but my true mother gave me life."

Jesus said that life is of the Spirit. His true mother is the Holy Spirit.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The likelihood that God did not participate in the creation of the universe is negligible (and likely zero). Why be an Atheist?

Well, think for yourself, no matter how many garbage there is in the landfill, the rhinoceros will not be born there. From lifeless only lifeless comes - scientifically proved by Dr. Pasteur.

To say that the probability of the godless origin of life is 100 percent (because we are alive) is not scientific. This is the so-called "conditional" probability. Unconditional probability is negligible.

Essentially, you mean "I an spell 'scientific' but have no freakin' idea what it means."

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Essentially, you mean "I an spell 'scientific' but have no freakin' idea what it means."

"I an spell"?

Let him without aim cast the first stone!

 

[ArtieE]

Independent of the Bible, rape is always wrong. If you disagree, explain under which circumstances you might rape someone, feeling you're doing a right action.

OK, why is rape always wrong then? What's the reason if the reason is independent of what the Bible might say?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Agree with what?

So it's up to God's opinion. Which means your morality is just as subjective as you claim anyone else's is. In other words, inserting your God into the equation doesn't solve the subjectivity problem. If God says rape is good, then rape is good. If God says slavery is okay, then slavery is okay. That's rather arbitrary, don't you think? And again, not really a system of morality at all. You are not acting in the capacity of a moral agent when you follow orders, so you are not actually exercising morality at all. At least my system of morality is grounded in something other than blindly following orders.

Now, if you could please demonstrate that your God exists and that his moral opinions are objective in nature.

Sure! You prove you exist and that your moral opinions are NOT objective in nature and I'll prove God exists and bears objective morals.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You don't get to deflect back to me. You are claim objective truth comes from God. I'm still waiting for a demonstration of that.

I provided my explanation for a superior system of morality several times now.

Wow, I already said all morals are subjective, even biblical morals. I also said rape is ALWAYS wrong so you jumped to the God conclusion, which is wholly unsurprising, yet another skeptic who must have all morals as subjective. Because only moral relativists can sin and sin and then accuse Christian of being "judgy". Sigh.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Why is disobeying God wrong? And that was not the topic anyway. The topic was morals. What if your God is evil, are you to obey him then? Would that not make you evil too? You appear to have a rather hazy understanding of morals.

If my God is evil, why does He ask me to support the poor, love my neighbor, obey local laws and promote harmony, peace and understanding? What if you and I are evil? Why should I follow your moral code or vice versa?

Atheist, please!

 

[BilliardsBall]

There is no evidence for moral absolutes. Nor is there any for objective morality.

The best you can do is name human-invented morals that have become moral universals - subjective values unanimously agreed upon. They remain neither objectively true nor absolute.



Yes, and disobeying Odin would also be stupid if He existed.

How would you feel about a person disobeying the alleged will of Odin today? Stupid?



The Bible condones rape, and in some places, commands it. Doesn't that conflict with your claim that opposing rape is a moral universal. It's not Jehovah's opinion.

You have no chance of making any progress with the skeptics here if you cannot demonstrate a god or moral values residing anywhere but in the heads of sentient earthlings. What you believe is of interest to you alone, not to skeptics, who need a reason to believe beyond the mere will to do so. They care about what you know and can demonstrate.

Until you can provide evidence to substantiate your claims, they are regarded as opinion, and there is nothing left to discuss. It's like a discussion that begins with you saying that chocolate is better than vanilla, without demonstrating why. That's the end of that. Great. You like chocolate.

Who can use that information apart from somebody planning to surprise you with a quart of ice cream?

I understand:

Odin does not command me to love my neighbors, live charitably and sacrificially, honor my leaders, obey the laws of the land, promote peace and harmony, and set people free via the gospel, so I'm fine with following Christ.

I agree on the chocolate and vanilla analogy, however, I've yet to meet a skeptic anywhere in this world who can justify why rape is sometimes okay--one reason you dislike what you feel in the Bible's condoning of rape, yes?

Unless you can give an example of rape being right, who am I to NOT say rape is objectively wrong? If any moral concept is objective, some objective morals exist.

Feel free to give an example of justified rape so I can retract my position.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You need to investigate further the Aramaic language. Jesus spoke Aramaic. Spirit, like Hebrew, is feminine. Translated to Greek and Latin, it became masculine.

Read the scriptures carefully. The Holy Spirit is the mother. If we are to become "sons" of God, who is the mother?

It was the voice of the Holy Spirit that entered Jesus that people heard "this is my son". Jesus said we have never heard the Fathers voice or seen his shape. Once Jesus was glorified, he was able to give us the mother as well.

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.- Luke

Mark 3:
32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

Luke:
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


The Gospel of Thomas says it more clearly:
(55) Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate his father and his mother cannot become a disciple to me. And whoever does not hate his brothers and sisters and take up his cross in my way will not be worthy of me."
(101) <Jesus said,> "Whoever does not hate his father and his mother as I do cannot become a disciple to me. And whoever does not love his father and his mother as I do cannot become a disciple to me. For my mother [...], but my true mother gave me life."

Jesus said that life is of the Spirit. His true mother is the Holy Spirit.

1. The NT is Greek, not Aramaic (and not Hebrew originally either, though some wish it was.

2. You are skipping verses that say things like "The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Jesus," Jesus being a male child per the prophecies.

 

[BilliardsBall]

OK, why is rape always wrong then? What's the reason if the reason is independent of what the Bible might say?

Independent of the Bible? Sure:

If rape isn't always wrong, why can no skeptic or Christian give an example of where it's right?

Please give an example of where sexual rape of a man or woman is justified, and I'll retract my stance that I know absolutely that rape is absolutely wrong.

Be warned: If an absolute moral exists, this points strongly to a moral Lawgiver, above all.

 

[ArtieE]

Odin does not command me to love my neighbors, live charitably and sacrificially, honor my leaders, obey the laws of the land, promote peace and harmony, and set people free via the gospel, so I'm fine with following Christ.

Why would you need a god to command you to love your neighbors, live charitably and sacrificially, honor your leaders, obey the laws of the land, promote peace and harmony? Most atheists do so simply because it's in everybody's best interest including themselves.

 

[ArtieE]

Be warned: If an absolute moral exists, this points strongly to a moral Lawgiver, above all.

Of course it doesn't. One might say killing is wrong. But it isn't in circumstances where not killing would be worse for the well-being and survival of the society or the people in it. In theory if you were in a position where raping somebody would save the lives of a thousand people then raping would be moral since not raping would have worse consequences. Since there are no realistic situations where raping can be more beneficial than not raping some people can claim that in practice rape can be said to be objectively wrong. But that has nothing to do with the existence of a god. It simply means that there are no or very few circumstances where rape is more beneficial than detrimental to the well-being of the society and the people in it.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Why would you need a god to command you to love your neighbors, live charitably and sacrificially, honor your leaders, obey the laws of the land, promote peace and harmony? Most atheists do so simply because it's in everybody's best interest including themselves.

were your parents atheists also? how about your grandparents and great grandparents?

 

[ArtieE]

were your parents atheists also? how about your grandparents and great grandparents?

Don't know. Can't remember my parents ever going to some church or reading any holy books. So "Why would you need a god to command you to love your neighbors, live charitably and sacrificially, honor your leaders, obey the laws of the land, promote peace and harmony?" What is wrong with you for needing a god to tell you how to behave? Or are you different from BilliardsBall?