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Zero Tolerance
- Thread starter dust1n
- Start date
.lava
Veteran Member
i am unsure what you mean by that. is there any example of that system on Earth now? is there anywhere on Earth where police never commit any crime?
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WayFarer
Rogue Scholar
For those who may not know: Zero Tolerance is where the powers-that-be punish you on the first infraction of an offense.
I understand why, on the surface, some have thought this to be a reasonable response. However, the reality of it is that it removes common sense and reason from the policing powers and places it in the hand of those who word the definition of the punishable offense.
For example some states (most) in the U.S. have a zero tolerance policy on students bring knives to school. To many this sounds reasonable. Then they suspend an early elementary student for having brought a butter knife to school for that students (brought from home) lunch. That student had it in their lunch bag/container and only took it out at lunch. When this was observed the student was taken out of the cafeteria, parents were called and the student suspended. And now for the fun part... the school provided the same type of knife in the cafeteria. So the reason for the suspension was that he student brought the "knife" not the knife itself. If I remember correctly this either went to court or was going to court and one way or the other the student was allowed to return to school.
This is just one of the many times zero tolerance makes zero sense. Instead they should appropriately punish those who commit crimes (with intent) and punish them hard so they learn not to do it again. Not a slap on the wrist that is often handed down and where those who commit crimes simply learn how to work the system.
Erebus
Well-Known Member
Nope, it's been tried and it doesn't work. Restorative justice actually seems to be the way forward with most criminals (with the exception of psychopaths who can't feel remorse).
Zero tolerance limits people in power from making a rational case by case decision based on the facts. A student who brings a steak knife to eat their lunch may have violated the rules, but should not be treated with the same severity as someone who storms the front door with an assualt rifle.
One of the key elements to deciding punishment is the violators intent.
Would we all be fine with capital punishment for someone who committed manslaughter by accident?
Zero tolerance is an ignorant concept that ties the hands of administrators to use good judgement.
The stupidity of people who believe that the solution to all the worlds problems is controlled by rules in the first place is the main problem.
Most rule breakers do not give a damn about rules.
One of the key elements to deciding punishment is the violators intent.
Would we all be fine with capital punishment for someone who committed manslaughter by accident?
Zero tolerance is an ignorant concept that ties the hands of administrators to use good judgement.
The stupidity of people who believe that the solution to all the worlds problems is controlled by rules in the first place is the main problem.
Most rule breakers do not give a damn about rules.
To often zero tolerance leads to the abdication of judgement and responsibility by administrators. In enforcing the letter rather than the spirit of the law, without benefit of reason or common sense, you get all sorts of ridiculous 'crimes' and absurd penalties.
Thus zero tolerance regulations warp people's sense of right and wrong and teach children that law is capricious and justice unrelated to any ends or goals.
Thus zero tolerance regulations warp people's sense of right and wrong and teach children that law is capricious and justice unrelated to any ends or goals.
I think zero tolerance is good for schools. It takes the decisions away from unqualified people. And the kids that usually get supended did it purposely.
My kids are in school and every year I get a list from the school of the zero tolerance's and my son's never get suspended in fact I don't know of any student in our system suspended against the zero tolerance rules.
Certain parents and students take pleasure in pushing buttons and if you take the risk you deserve the fate. Also not reading the rules doesn't mean you should get away scott free.
My kids are in school and every year I get a list from the school of the zero tolerance's and my son's never get suspended in fact I don't know of any student in our system suspended against the zero tolerance rules.
Certain parents and students take pleasure in pushing buttons and if you take the risk you deserve the fate. Also not reading the rules doesn't mean you should get away scott free.
Why would you hire an unqualified principal, Think? Isn't making decisions based on sound judgement part of his job? Zero tolerance policies take sound judgement out of his hands and allow him to abdicate responsibility.
Zero tolerance is good for producing criminals and moral imbeciles.
Zero tolerance is good for producing criminals and moral imbeciles.
A principal is not a trained cop. Why don't we just scan all the kids as they enter the school.
Our school system has a no knife policy and I can see no reason for a kid to bring a knife to school even a plastic one. Especially knowing the school has knifes in the cafeteria and don't charge for there use.
He had a consealed weapon on him. All it took was box cutters for 911.
If judgement calls are made there will be errors made. As long as everyone is notified about the policy there is nothing wrong with the policy. Why should any student bring any knife to school.
ericoh2
******
Do you think someone who's bringing a weapon to school in order to harm someone is going to care whether there is a zero tolerance policy or not? That's one of the problems with this type of nonsense, it's usually the ones who aren't trying to do anything wrong that are punished. Someone who's bringing a gun to school to harm is going to have much bigger legal problems facing them (like life in prison) than suspension from school.
Why should any student be allowed to bring a knife into school even a plastic one. Is there a medical condition I should know about or something.
Zero tolerance sets a standard penalty so there is no confusion. It is only used for things that should have a zero tolerance. Our school system has a knife policy, gun policy, drug policy. I find no problems with any of these. By the way before you attack me If you child needs drugs you bring a note from the doctor and the drugs are kept and dispenced by the nurse.
If you can prove to me a need for Knifes, Guns or Drugs (without doctors consent) in an school I would gladly change my stance.
Again the school sends out a flyer every year with the Zero tolerance standard printed in English and Spanish. Also when you sign up you kid during the school year they give it to you before heor she starts school.
How is this wrong.
kadzbiz
..........................
What I don't like about this question is that is focuses on the police, not the judiciary system. Police are always in between a rock and a hard place. Even when we have blitzes on certain offences because of public outcry, we (cops) still manage to show discretion or turn a blind eye where it is sensible. The problem, as I see it, is that the judiciary is letting down, not only the public in their pathetic sentencing, but the police who are facing scrutiny from all angles to uphold the law and bring perpetrators before the courts. Often I just feel like some cleaner; just going in, cleaning up some little mess, just for it to be messed up again in the near future.
ericoh2
******
I wasn't trying too attack your opinion, sorry if it came across that way. When I said nonsense I was talking about zero tolerance policies in general. It's not really a right or wrong thing with me, it's just another example of putting rules in place that do nothing to deter any real danger. Like you said, I think in most cases they let the students and parents know what's included in these policies so I don't really think proper to call it unfair. However, at some point humanity needs to get out of this fear based mindset and accept the risks that are a part of life.
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dust1n
Zindīq
I think for a lot of kids, that a knife is brought by accident, or that medication is brought by accident, and the kid doesn't realize the potential danger, or that it is even wrong. Those are the kids I feel bad for. Just confused - a misunderstanding.
I find it odd that a kid would accidently bring a knife or drugs to school but today there is a lot of bad parenting. My drugs are out of my kids reach and my kids understand knifes are not a toy to be played with or taken outside at all. But that may be just me.
Rainbow Mage
Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I'd say it depends on the crime and the situation. No two situations are necessarily handled the same way. This is the simplistic dualistic notion of good vs bad. One reaction is always the best reaction. There is the appropriate way to handle each moment, not good and bad.
dust1n
Zindīq
That's good that you take those precautions - but kids are kids man; mistakes are made, even amongst the best parents.
So mistakes eliminate the need for punishment. We are not talking about throwing the kid in jail or even giving the kid a criminal record what we are talking is suspension. Which can be fought and overturned. Also suspension can only last 10 days, explusion can only last a year and the school district must provide alternate education to students under the age of 16 who are explused.
Is this really that horrible a punishment.
LOL! -- A lot of schools do scan everyone as they enter and, while not a cop, a principal is a judge, or at least he used to be before these zero tolerance policies tied his hands.
Errors are made by both humans and laws, but you seem to have more faith in a black and white, automatic penalties than in reason or common sense.
I've read of too many ridiculous and counter productive applications of these zero-tolerance prescriptions to support them over reasoned human judgement.
You bring up knives. Knives are symbols as much as weapons. I could stab you just as easily with a pencil as with a knife.
Errors are made by both humans and laws, but you seem to have more faith in a black and white, automatic penalties than in reason or common sense.
I've read of too many ridiculous and counter productive applications of these zero-tolerance prescriptions to support them over reasoned human judgement.
You bring up knives. Knives are symbols as much as weapons. I could stab you just as easily with a pencil as with a knife.