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Quantum entanglement

Nimos

Well-Known Member
For those that are not sure what it is:
Quantum entanglement is a bizarre, counterintuitive phenomenon that explains how two subatomic particles can be intimately linked to each other even if separated by billions of light-years of space.

I don't get it, but maybe someone can help :D

How do they know that they are connected?

I could understand it, if this was done in a small box and they had particle A and B and then they could experiment on them. But there are trillions of particles, so how would they know that A is connected to B which is billions of light years away?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
For those that are not sure what it is:
Quantum entanglement is a bizarre, counterintuitive phenomenon that explains how two subatomic particles can be intimately linked to each other even if separated by billions of light-years of space.

I don't get it, but maybe someone can help :D

How do they know that they are connected?

I could understand it, if this was done in a small box and they had particle A and B and then they could experiment on them. But there are trillions of particles, so how would they know that A is connected to B which is billions of light years away?
The best way I have found is to consider it as not a compound system made of two particles but an extended single entity that dissociates into two and gains the individuated properties at the moment the external measurement interaction takes place.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
What Is Entanglement and Why Is It Important? is a good site. It includes a series of images such as this one
02-EntanglementPanel-C.max-1000x1000.jpg
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
The best way I have found is to consider it as not a compound system made of two particles but an extended single entity that dissociates into two and gains the individuated properties at the moment the external measurement interaction takes place.
What Is Entanglement and Why Is It Important? is a good site. It includes a series of images such as this one
I understand the connection they are talking about.

But let's use the image you posted because it is very simple.

How does the guy know that he has the correct "ball" in his box when there are trillions and trillions to choose from? Imagine he had 10 boxes and regardless of which of them he opened the color would match the ball in the girl's box. Yet he would be equally impressed because they seem connected :D. Does that make sense?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
How does the guy know that he has the correct "ball" in his box when there are trillions and trillions to choose from? Imagine he had 10 boxes and regardless of which of them he opened the color would match the ball in the girl's box. Yet he would be equally impressed because they seem connected :D. Does that make sense?

No it does not make sense to me - you're asking something that is not part of entanglement. The question is "are these two entangled" and the answer comes from an experiment. The interesting thing to me is that what can be entangled is getting larger and larger. Quantum entanglement just got a whole lot weirder is an interesting article about how the two object entangled can be different.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
No it does not make sense to me - you're asking something that is not part of entanglement. The question is "are these two entangled" and the answer comes from an experiment. The interesting thing to me is that what can be entangled is getting larger and larger. Quantum entanglement just got a whole lot weirder is an interesting article about how the two object entangled can be different.
Let me try to explain it another way then :D

From the article:
We can measure things like mass, position, motion, duration, etc., without worrying about whether that object is affected by our measurements; reality exists completely independently of the observer. But in the quantum world, that’s demonstrably not true. The act of measuring a system fundamentally changes its properties in an irrevocable way.

The last sentence "But in the quantum world, that’s demonstrably not true. The act of measuring a system fundamentally changes its properties in an irrevocable way." if measuring the system changes its properties, how do they know that the properties weren't already like that beforehand. How do they determine that it changed if a measurement changes it because they need to know what the initial state of the system was to know that it has changed?

Read the rest of the article as well, but honestly, at the end, I had no clue what they were talking about.

This might as well have been someone just randomly hitting the keyboard and it would have made as much sense :D

---
In particle physics, you can produce new, heavy, unstable particles so long as you meet all the quantum requirements (i.e., you aren’t violating any conservation laws) and you also have enough energy (via Einstein’s E = mc²) available for that particle to be created. From collisions involving protons and/or neutrons — i.e., quark-containing particles — the easiest particles to produce are known as mesons, which are quark-antiquark combinations. The lightest mesons, which involve only up, down, and strange quarks (and antiquarks), are:
  • π particles (pions), which can be positively charged (up-antidown), negatively charged (down-antiup), or neutral (a superposition of up-antiup and down-antidown),
  • K particles (kaons), which involve a strange quark (or antiquark) and either an up or down antiquark (or quark),
  • η particles (etas), which involve a mix of up-antiup, down-antidown, and strange-antistrange quarks,
  • and ρ particles (rhos), which — along with ω (omega) particles — are made of up-and-down quarks and antiquarks, but have their spins aligned rather than anti-aligned as for the other mesons.
These are the only mesons that are lighter than the proton (and neutron), and are responsible for carrying the nuclear force within an atomic nucleus. They’re all short-lived and will all decay into lighter particles, but while the neutral pion (π0) particle always decays into two photons, the neutral rho (ρ0) particle always decays into both a positively charged (π+) and a negatively charged (π–) pion.
 

Bthoth

*banned*
For those that are not sure what it is:
Quantum entanglement is a bizarre, counterintuitive phenomenon that explains how two subatomic particles can be intimately linked to each other even if separated by billions of light-years of space.

I don't get it, but maybe someone can help :D

How do they know that they are connected?

I could understand it, if this was done in a small box and they had particle A and B and then they could experiment on them. But there are trillions of particles, so how would they know that A is connected to B which is billions of light years away?
Cute.

The QE is the identification of a property of nature that exists. None can explain how or why exactly, but the property can be reproduced, measured and used.

Very touchy subject when drilled down to the nuts and bolts.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Cute.

The QE is the identification of a property of nature that exists. None can explain how or why exactly, but the property can be reproduced, measured and used.

Very touchy subject when drilled down to the nuts and bolts.
I fully accept it and that it has been demonstrated to be real. I'm just curious about it because I don't get it.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
No it does not make sense to me - you're asking something that is not part of entanglement. The question is "are these two entangled" and the answer comes from an experiment. The interesting thing to me is that what can be entangled is getting larger and larger. Quantum entanglement just got a whole lot weirder is an interesting article about how the two object entangled can be different.
I think this is a good example as well with the wishbone.


We don't know what state the wishbone is in before we look, yet the wishbone would know, right?

And again in this example, which was what my original question was about, is that they work with the assumption that they each have a piece of the same wishbone. Because to me and where I don't get it, is that I would assume that they each stuck their hands into huge containers filled with identical parts of broken wishbones, so one container filled with the big pieces and one with the smaller ones and then just assumed that they chose the correct match up because all of them match up.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
"But in the quantum world, that’s demonstrably not true. The act of measuring a system fundamentally changes its properties in an irrevocable way." if measuring the system changes its properties, how do they know that the properties weren't already like that beforehand. How do they determine that it changed if a measurement changes it because they need to know what the initial state of the system was to know that it has changed?
How Do You Create Quantum Entanglement? has a discussion about how things are entangled in the first place. If you want to go deeper you're in the world of reading descriptions of physical setups.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
For those that are not sure what it is:
Quantum entanglement is a bizarre, counterintuitive phenomenon that explains how two subatomic particles can be intimately linked to each other even if separated by billions of light-years of space.

I don't get it, but maybe someone can help :D

How do they know that they are connected?

I could understand it, if this was done in a small box and they had particle A and B and then they could experiment on them. But there are trillions of particles, so how would they know that A is connected to B which is billions of light years away?
Just keep in mind that it's a scientific theory.

It's not really fact yet until more information comes in , it's just the possibility like dark matter is a possibility that is based off of already known facts , which is the beauty of science as we try to solve the mystery and put the pieces of the puzzle together.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Just keep in mind that it's a scientific theory.

It's not really fact yet until more information comes in , it's just the possibility like dark matter is a possibility that is based off of already known facts , which is the beauty of science as we try to solve the mystery and put the pieces of the puzzle together.
Science uses the word "theory" in a different way. Facts are what is measured. Theories are the explanations. That's why we say "Einstein's THEORY of relativity" - it's been proven over and over and over again.

Quantum mechanics, a mathematical model of matter at very small scales, is science's most rigorously tested theory. Countless experiments have confirmed it, as do computer chips, lasers and other technologies that exploit quantum effects. Unfortunately, quantum mechanics defies common sense.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Just keep in mind that it's a scientific theory.

It's not really fact yet until more information comes in , it's just the possibility like dark matter is a possibility that is based off of already known facts , which is the beauty of science as we try to solve the mystery and put the pieces of the puzzle together.

Science does not deal in facts.

More information,

It has been measured numerous times in the laboratory.

The effect has been measured repeatedly between 2 laboratories 50km apart.

It has also been measured between a satellite and an earth based laboratory.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
At the risk of resurrecting a dead thread, I thought I'd make a comment or two.

First, the question of how you know you are looking at the correct particle.

We have devices that will emit a single particle at a time that then either decays or is transformed into two entangled particles. We can then do any measurements on those particles *before* another particle (and pair) are even produced.

Second, when there are 'trillions' of particles, the entanglement tends to be destroyed by interactions with those other particles.

Third, in quantum mechanics, we predict *probabilities* and not specific events. For entangled particles the probabilities are correlated.

So, for example, suppose I make a particle that decays into a spin up/spin down pair. The two particles in the pair go off in different directions.

Some things are important:

1. We cannot tell ahead of time which direction the spin up particle will go or which direction the spin down particle will go. There is a 50/50 split in the possibilities.

2. Over many such pairs, both sides see 50% spin up and 50% spin down. Neither side can predict what the next particle will be.

3. When the measurements are brought together, it is found that whenever one side detects a spin up, the other side detects a spin down. So the results on the two sides are completely (anti-)correlated.

4. If we do something at either end that affects the spin, the spin of the other end will be found to stay opposite of the changed one.

5. A subtlety: since we don't know ahead of time whether the particle at our end will be up or down, there is no way to use this to send a signal to the other end (they don't know either).

Fourth, the question arose as to how we know measurements affect the results.

The classical example is the double-slit experiment. Send a stream of electrons through a device with two thin slits close together. Detect the electrons on a screen past the slits.

1. If that is all you do, there will be an 'interference pattern' detected on the screen.

2. If, instead, you attempt to do a measurement to determine which slit the electrons go through (say, by shining a light on them), the interference pattern disappears. Instead, we get two 'lumps' of detection.

What happens is that the light that would show which slit the electrons go through interacts with those electrons and that interaction destroys the pattern.

3. If we 'turn down' the light to the place where we can no longer determine which slit the electron goes through, the interference pattern re-emerges.

Fifth, this was described as purely theoretical. This is false. These effects have been observed, tested, re-tested, and some current technology is based on exactly these phenomena. Lasers, for example, depend on entanglement of photons to work.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
For those that are not sure what it is:
Quantum entanglement is a bizarre, counterintuitive phenomenon that explains how two subatomic particles can be intimately linked to each other even if separated by billions of light-years of space.

I don't get it, but maybe someone can help :D

How do they know that they are connected?

I could understand it, if this was done in a small box and they had particle A and B and then they could experiment on them. But there are trillions of particles, so how would they know that A is connected to B which is billions of light years away?
My thought is that they are indeed connected through space dimensions beyond our familiar three. So, to an entity with only three-dimensional sensing, it will look like magic.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
My thought is that they are indeed connected through space dimensions beyond our familiar three. So, to an entity with only three-dimensional sensing, it will look like magic.
Such extra dimensions have been tried as an explanation and have not worked.

Remember that mathematicians and physicists have no difficulty working in many dimensions. For example, Hamiltonian dynamics usually uses 6 dimensions for each particle and one time dimension.

If you have a *specific* proposal, go ahead and let people know and it can be tested.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Far be it from me to formally propose that.

I’m just extrapolating further from paranormal phenomena that still looks like magic to science. There we have theories (not testable yet by science) involving higher dimensions (astral etc.) by those claiming higher plane sensing (Vedic (Hindu), Theosophical) from wisdoms traditions other than science.

I know you’re a science only (scientism) type but giving my two cents on the OP.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Far be it from me to formally propose that.

I’m just extrapolating further from paranormal phenomena that still looks like magic to science.
It not only looks like 'magic,' but is ' magic' not science. If it is has webbed feet, feathers, and goes "quake quake" it is a duck.

There we have theories (not testable yet by science) involving higher dimensions (astral etc.) by those claiming higher plane sensing (Vedic (Hindu), Theosophical) from wisdoms traditions other than science.
This is not what @Polymath257 was referring to. What you are referring to does not represent theories or hypotheses in science, but subjective speculation of subjective beliefs beyond science and not the subject of the thread.

Quantum Mechanics is a predictable science based on the the behavior of energy and particles on the smallest scale. It is not Hokus Pokus magic. Despite unknowns Quantum Entanglement is predictable well understood Quantum behavior. Recent research has better explained the the nature and predictability of Quantum entanglement.


Actually Quantum Computers have a;ready gone far beyond the atricles conclusions.

More references on Quantum Entanglement to follow . . .

I know you’re a science only (scientism) type but giving my two cents on the OP.
It is best to keep the Blue smoke and Mirrors of the supernatural, and accusation of meaningless "scientism" in your back pocket, and deal with science and Quantum Mechanics as science and Quantum Mechanics and avoid philosophical speculation.
 
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George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
It not only looks like 'magic,' but is ' magic' not science. If it is has webbed feet, feathers, and goes "quake quake" it is a duck.


This is not what @Polymath257 was referring to. What you are referring to does not represent theories or hypotheses in science, but subjective speculation of subjective beliefs beyond science and not the subject of the thread.

Quantum Mechanics is a predictable science based on the the behavior of energy and particles on the smallest scale. It is not Hokus Pokus magic. Despite unknowns Quantum Entanglement is predictable well understood Quantum behavior. Recent research has better explained the the nature and predictability of Quantum entanglement.

***Staff edit***

Actually Quantum Computers have a;ready gone far beyond the atricles conclusions.

More references on Quantum Entanglement to follow . . .


It is best to keep the Blue smoke and Mirrors of the supernatural, and accusation of meaningless "scientism" in your back pocket, and deal with science and Quantum Mechanics as science and Quantum Mechanics and avoid philosophical speculation.
“I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics.”
Richard Feynman

New thinking then is welcomed unless you think it is already understood. Sources of inspiration can come from anywhere. That's the stage at which we are at.
 
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RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
My thought is that they are indeed connected through space dimensions beyond our familiar three. So, to an entity with only three-dimensional sensing, it will look like magic.


That apparently non-local correlations become local in higher dimensional reality, is an interpretation of QM explored by Alyssa Ney, in her book The World in the Wave function: A Metaphysics For Quantum Physics. Ney is a Philosophy professor with a background in theoretical physics.

The World in the Wave Function: A Metaphysics for Quant…
 
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