Theists Only: Your Arguments

[Quintessence]

When I took a philosophy of religion course in college they covered a wide variety of justifications for God. In spite of it being a philosophy of religion course it pretty much limited itself just to God and no other theological paradigms, and while as a polytheist I found a lot of problems with the assumptions of those arguments, I also found them reasonable when considered from within the context of their own paradigm. The notion of God being the "uncaused cause" for example was an interesting articulation even if I didn't personally agree with it. Similarly, the rationales provided for why God must have these particular characteristics logically followed even if I didn't agree with it too. Before taking that course, I was already well familiar with the fact that anything and everything can be rationalized... and that anything and everything can be criticized.

I dunno if I really have a favorite case for the gods, but if I'm going to be biased about it it's probably just my own.

1. Autonomy Premise: every person gets to decide how their worldview functions and operates
   
   1. As such, every person gets to decide what "gods" are (or aren't) within the context of their own worldview
   2. This autonomy is inevitably mediated by cultural factors such as prevailing norms and social conformity
2. Context Premise: across various cultures, gods are that which are deemed worthy of worship
   
   1. Worthiness can take many forms but nearly always implies being greater-than, deserving respect, or invoking awe
   2. Deification is this a declaration of a type of sacred relationship - that of a human with something greater-than-human
3. Conclusion: "god" is akin to a title that humans bestow as they will upon aspects of their life experiences that they deem worthy of worship.

All this is part of why I find those demanding "evidence" are missing the damned point most of the time. Those who have deified something obviously had an experience, and they get to decide that this experience is worthy of deification. It's not up to outsiders to decree what is and isn't worthy of worship for someone else. I'll grant that a lot of folks god-concepts are based on secondhand, thirdhand (or more) accounts. That is, folks will worship gods because these gods have been passed down through cultural traditions. But these gods came from somewhere - someone's experiences of the splendors fo the universe that then led to a response of "this is something greater than me, I will sing of its praise."

 

[Trailblazer]

You are correct God did not write the Bible, but God inspired men to do so.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. - 2 Tim 3:16-17

As I said, it is possible that the Bible was inspired by God, but since it was written by fallible men, it is certainly not inerrant.
The problems that Bible has are too numerous to mention. The Bible contradicts itself left and right. Not only that, but Christians do not interpret the same Bible verses the same way, which is why Christianity is divided into thousands of sects. For example, some Christians such as the JWs believe that they will be raised from the dead to live forever on earth in a physical body, while most Christians believe they will go to heaven when they die. Both cannot be right, yet they are both using the Bible to justify their beliefs.

The conclusion of this essay entitled A Baháí View of the Bible sums up my sentiments about the Bible. It does not represent an official Bahai viewpoint, it was written by an erudite scholar who has studied the Bible extensively.

Conclusion

The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.

A Baháí View of the Bible

 

[1137]

I'm interested to hear from all the theists on here who believe in a personal God or a creator God, what are your favourite arguments for theism? Excluding your personal experience, are there any intellectual/philosophical etc. ideas or ideas from your scriptures that confirm God's existence for you? Not looking for miracles etc.

Commonality of Divine Experience
1.Common human experiences (CHE) are, and should be, accepted as valid unless there are reasons, in individual cases, to reject them.

2.Divine experiences (DEs) are a CHE.
oWe cannot show every individual DE was invalid.
oEven if we show individual DEs are invalid, it does not imply all DEs are invalid.

3.So, DEs are valid.

4.Valid DEs imply the existence of gods.

5.Rejecting experiences of all gods but one is fallacious.

6.Therefore, Polytheism is valid.

Nature of Consciousness
1.The mind/consciousness and the brain/matter have different properties (Property Dualism).

2.Things with non-identical properties are not the same thing (as per the Law of Identity).

3.So, the mind/consciousness and the brain/matter are not the same thing.

4.Our own mind is the only thing we can be absolutely certain exists and is the only thing we can ever know directly.

5.Matter, as with everything else, is only known through the mind, and its existence can be doubted.

6.We cannot reduce something we know directly to something we know through it, and we cannot reduce something we know with certainty to something we can doubt.

7.So, as far as we can tell, consciousness cannot be reduced and is an ontological primitive.

8.A consciousness that is an ontological primitive is a god.

9.We know there are many different and distinct states of consciousness.

10.So, it is valid to believe in multiple ontologically primitive forms of consciousness.

11.Therefore, belief in multiple gods is valid.

Rise of Consciousness
1.Evolution is a long term process of the physical world.

2.Modern human consciousness/behavioral modernity arose abruptly in what we call the Upper Paleolithic Revolution (UPR).

3.Modern human consciousness arose over 160,000 years after we genetically evolved as a species.

4.Modern human consciousness has contradictory properties to the physical world and cannot be reduced to it.

5.So, something other than evolution must explain our consciousness.

6.Beings or forces which are separate from nature, possess consciousness, and share that consciousness with humanity in a way that separates us from nature, are gods.

7.This means that belief in gods is valid.

8.Consciousness is not uniform, and minds often disagree and contradict.

9.So, belief in more than one source of consciousness is more reasonable than belief in one.

10.Therefore belief in multiple gods is valid.

 

[SavedByTheLord]

As I said, it is possible that the Bible was inspired by God, but since it was written by fallible men, it is certainly not inerrant.
The problems that Bible has are too numerous to mention. The Bible contradicts itself left and right. Not only that, but Christians do not interpret the same Bible verses the same way, which is why Christianity is divided into thousands of sects. For example, some Christians such as the JWs believe that they will be raised from the dead to live forever on earth in a physical body, while most Christians believe they will go to heaven when they die. Both cannot be right, yet they are both using the Bible to justify their beliefs.

The conclusion of this essay entitled A Baháí View of the Bible sums up my sentiments about the Bible. It does not represent an official Bahai viewpoint, it was written by an erudite scholar who has studied the Bible extensively.

Conclusion

The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.

A Baháí View of the Bible

Well many have claimed contradictions in the Bible. None have been found. Use the King James Bible.
You know God put what seems like contradictions into the Bible. They are super intelligently done. But comparing apples to apple, using precept upon precept, using correct context, and with a little here and a little here. there is no conttardicion.

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. - Isa 28:9-13

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. - Isa 55:11

Here is a contradiction. 24000 vs 23000. Except the second one says "in one day" . So comparing apples and oranges. The reason for this simple example is that it is a warning from God to show he puts in apparent contradictions for those who do not want to believe. This is part of the proof that the Bible is true.

And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand. - Numbers 25:9

Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. - 1 For 10:8

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

Belief in the existence of God, God's unity (as a single, indivisible entity), God's non-corporeality (having no physical body), and God's eternity are all principles of my faith -- the Jewish faith. I am a Jew with an emotional investment in my people and a history that spans millennia. As such, I accept God's existence without any need to confirm this for myself. I especially don't feel that acquiring proof of God's existence is as important as it is to observe the teachings of my faith so as to live a good life.

I don't know whether this constitutes an "argument for theism," but I also don't feel a need to convince others of what I believe. Jews are not exactly noted for seeking converts.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well many have claimed contradictions in the Bible. None have been found. Use the King James Bible.
You know God put what seems like contradictions into the Bible. They are super intelligently done. But comparing apples to apple, using precept upon precept, using correct context, and with a little here and a little here. there is no contradiction.

I was never a Christian so I know very little of the Bible. I am not going to argue about whether there are any contradictions in the Bible. I will leave that to people who know the Bible.

I consider it a moot point whether or not there are contradictions in the Bible since I do not believe that we are living under the Jewish dispensation or the Christian dispensation anymore.

Dispensation​

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

I believe that every time God sends a new Messenger the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is according to the religion that He establishes, not according to the previous religions that were established. I believe that the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is through the latest Messenger of God that God has sent and that Messenger is Baha'u'llah.

I believe that the spiritual teachings of Jesus will always be pertinent because they are eternal, but I do not believe that the gospel message is the message for the present age we live in.

I believe that the gospel message left behind only applied to humanity during the dispensation of Jesus, and I believe that dispensation ended when Christ returned.

I do not believe that the gospel message is the message that God wants humanity to follow in this age. It was for another age which is now over.

I believe that God sent more Messengers after Jesus ascended to heaven and the Christians should have recognized those Messengers instead of insisting that Jesus is the only way.

 

[The Hammer]

Well just a name would not be much. But God's character would be the most important.
The Bible proves itself to be the true word of God, so the God of the Bible is indeed the real God.

Many characters are Gods. Not just those of the Bible. I see nothing within any written text that proves any deity.

 

[SavedByTheLord]

Many characters are Gods. Not just those of the Bible. I see nothing within any written text that proves any deity.

Since the Bible is true, then so is this statement.
Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. - Isa 44:6

 

[Colt]

I'm interested to hear from all the theists on here who believe in a personal God or a creator God, what are your favourite arguments for theism? Excluding your personal experience, are there any intellectual/philosophical etc. ideas or ideas from your scriptures that confirm God's existence for you? Not looking for miracles etc.

Consciousness, transcendence and the observation of the universe.

 

[Trailblazer]

I see nothing within any written text that proves any deity.

That is because no deity can ever be proven to exist...
That does not mean that no deity exists, it only means that no deity can ever be 'proven' to exist by any human.

The only way that humans could ever have proof that a deity exists is if the deity proved He exists.
The omnipotent deity could easily prove that He exists if He chose to, but the deity wants us to believe on faith and evidence, not on proof.

 

[The Hammer]

.

The only way that humans could ever have proof that a deity exists is if the deity proved He exists.

The Gods provide proofs they exist to me All the time.

 

[The Hammer]

Since the Bible is true

You're stating a fact before proving it.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Gods provide proofs they exist to me All the time.

On an individual basis I believe that is so. I have had the same experience.
I meant that God does not provide proof that everyone will accept as proof, which would make God a proven fact.

 

[Ebionite]

Even if the Bible was God's will at one time back in history, that was thousands of years ago, and there is no reason to think it is God's will for the age we are now living in.

Symbolism from Daniel relates to the current age:

And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
The first [was] like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and [it had] three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
Daniel 7:3-6

Lion - England
Eagle - United States
Bear - Russia
Leopard - Germany

 

[Trailblazer]

Symbolism from Daniel relates to the current age:

Prophecy relates to the current age, since prophecies have been or will be fulfilled in the current age.
However, I do not believe that the Bible represents the 'will of God' for the present age. I believe that the Jewish and Christian dispensations are over.

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

I believe that the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is through the latest Messenger of God and that Messenger is Baha'u'llah.
I believe that Baha’u’llah is the Messenger of God for the current dispensation and God wants us to recognize and follow Him.

 

[Ebionite]

However, I do not believe that the Bible represents the 'will of God' for the present age. I believe that the Jewish and Christian dispensations are over.

I try to take a rational approach these questions. Beliefs can be arbitrary.

 

[Trailblazer]

I try to take a rational approach these questions. Beliefs can be arbitrary.

I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[Ebionite]

I'm not sure what you mean.

When different beliefs are in conflict there's no objective way to pick the one that is most likely to be true.

 

[Trailblazer]

When different beliefs are in conflict there's no objective way to pick the one that is most likely to be true.

I picked my beliefs subjectively and objectively.

I looked at the facts surrounding my religion and believed the religion made logical sense, and I believed it had to be true for certain reasons.

There was also a subjective component since belief in my religion was based on or influenced by my personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

 

[Ebionite]

I picked my beliefs subjectively and objectively.

I looked at the facts surrounding my religion and believed the religion made logical sense, and I believed it had to be true for certain reasons.

There was also a subjective component since belief in my religion was based on or influenced by my personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

I think that's what most people do. The teaching about the narrow path would suggest that it would be wise to do due diligence before investing in a particular belief system.