Coming out as creationists: fear.

[ecco]

Did these birds just design their own beaks? I can't believe it....

Good for you. Scientists don't believe it either.

 

[ecco]

8


It is unforgivable. It is child abuse.

I only brought this up because of the post with its
hallucinatory assertions about how great a religious
education is.

The JW come in third to last in the USA, in educational achievement.
The most and least educated U.S. religious groups

In the rest of the world, there are millions of people who are desperately
eager to get an education to better themselves. and are denied the chance.
Poverty, violence against women who attempt it, many obstacles.
Some few manage to heroically overcome all and succeed.

And what do the JWs do? Indoctrinate their unfortunate children into
an anti intellectual cult.

Think how many would give anything to have what those people throw away,
while presenting that they are too good for it.

Now, now. Don't be too hard on them, after all they have good reasons for considering a higher education to be a waste of time...

Higher Education
Although Jehovah's Witnesses are encouraged to do well at school, the Watchtower speaks against advanced education. It is described as a waste of time since the end is near...
​

The good thing is that they are not in colleges telling kids that the world is going to end in the next two weeks.

 

[ecco]

How does the congregation know when a person is "out of favor with God?" Isn't that between an individual and God?
Sounds like the congregation thinks they're God.

Every member of every church or religion can speak with the knowledge of god. That's why we read posts on these boards from christians who accuse other christians of not being true christians. That's why we see christians of all denominations calling other denominations cults and false religions. That's why we see wars between groups like protestants and catholics. That's why some protestants felt they had to leave Europe to avoid being persecuted by other protestants.


You hardly ever hear an atheist accuse another atheist of not being a real atheist. I guess we, unlike christians, do agree on the basic tenets of our beliefs.

 

[Jose Fly]

Now, now. Don't be too hard on them, after all they have good reasons for considering a higher education to be a waste of time...

Higher Education
Although Jehovah's Witnesses are encouraged to do well at school, the Watchtower speaks against advanced education. It is described as a waste of time since the end is near...
​

The good thing is that they are not in colleges telling kids that the world is going to end in the next two weeks.

I'll never forget an exchange I had with a Jehovah's Witness co-worker at a fast food joint I worked at in high school. The manager told me to spread some salt on the sidewalk because it was getting icy. The JW met me when I came in after spreading the salt, and it went something like....

JW: Why are you spreading salt on the sidewalk?

Me: To melt the ice so people won't slip.

JW: What? Salt doesn't melt ice!

Me: Um, yes it does.

JW: Are you serious? What, do you think salt is hot or something?

Me: *sigh* No, it combines with water to lower the freezing point.

JW: <pours some table salt into his hand> Ahhhhh it's burning my hand!! It's soooooooo hot!

Me: You really don't know that salt melts ice?

JW: Why don't people who smoke use salt to light their cigarettes?

Me: Um......ok, whatever dude.​

TBH, I can't recall ever meeting a well-educated Jehovah's Witness.

 

[ecco]

You and the JW missed the boat. You could have turned it into a comedy stage act. Kinda like Abbott and Costello. The audience would have roared with laughter when the JW tried to light his cigarette with a shaker of salt. It coulda been Comedy Central Proudly Presents Jose and the JW!



Hmmm, Jeff Dunham are you reading this? It's time to retire Achmed and let him RIP.

 

[Audie]

Now, now. Don't be too hard on them, after all they have good reasons for considering a higher education to be a waste of time...

Higher Education
Although Jehovah's Witnesses are encouraged to do well at school, the Watchtower speaks against advanced education. It is described as a waste of time since the end is near...
​

The good thing is that they are not in colleges telling kids that the world is going to end in the next two weeks.

Or drowning puppiy, or other forms of damning with faint praise.

 

[Audie]

I'll never forget an exchange I had with a Jehovah's Witness co-worker at a fast food joint I worked at in high school. The manager told me to spread some salt on the sidewalk because it was getting icy. The JW met me when I came in after spreading the salt, and it went something like....

JW: Why are you spreading salt on the sidewalk?

Me: To melt the ice so people won't slip.

JW: What? Salt doesn't melt ice!

Me: Um, yes it does.

JW: Are you serious? What, do you think salt is hot or something?

Me: *sigh* No, it combines with water to lower the freezing point.

JW: <pours some table salt into his hand> Ahhhhh it's burning my hand!! It's soooooooo hot!

Me: You really don't know that salt melts ice?

JW: Why don't people who smoke use salt to light their cigarettes?

Me: Um......ok, whatever dude.​

TBH, I can't recall ever meeting a well-educated Jehovah's Witness.

That is too horrible not to be true.
The snark reminds me of someone.

 

[Audie]

Every member of every church or religion can speak with the knowledge of god. That's why we read posts on these boards from christians who accuse other christians of not being true christians. That's why we see christians of all denominations calling other denominations cults and false religions. That's why we see wars between groups like protestants and catholics. That's why some protestants felt they had to leave Europe to avoid being persecuted by other protestants.


You hardly ever hear an atheist accuse another atheist of not being a real atheist. I guess we, unlike christians, do agree on the basic tenets of our beliefs.

Wellll...I do sometimes tell people they never really were atheists.

You know, the ones who say they "used to be an atheist but..."

They always start ed out in a religious family, but fell away for a while.
That aint being a atheist.

 

[Audie]

Good for you. Scientists don't believe it either.

we now anticipate an earnest request for an explanation of where
she went wrong.

 

[ecco]

I recently learned a Britishism - PMPL

 

[Jose Fly]

That is too horrible not to be true.
The snark reminds me of someone.

Actually, my JW coworker and I were pretty good friends. We both liked basketball (specifically the NBA), which was awkward for him because the JWs don't believe in sports (they don't believe in competition is what he told me). So every now and then I'd give him a ride home and we'd sneak down to the basement to watch that night's highlights. Sometimes his grandma (who he lived with) would stand at the top of the stairs and yell "You're not watching sports down there, are you", to which he would always respond "No grandma".

I always wondered how that ended. Did he remain a JW and give up his love of sports? Or did he leave the faith?

I'll likely never know.

 

[Audie]

Actually, my JW coworker and I were pretty good friends. We both liked basketball (specifically the NBA), which was awkward for him because the JWs don't believe in sports (they don't believe in competition is what he told me). So every now and then I'd give him a ride home and we'd sneak down to the basement to watch that night's highlights. Sometimes his grandma (who he lived with) would stand at the top of the stairs and yell "You're not watching sports down there, are you", to which he would always respond "No grandma".

I always wondered how that ended. Did he remain a JW and give up his love of sports? Or did he leave the faith?

I'll likely never know.

Good q, though. Did he go over to the dark side, or ...?

I see no reason not to be friends with / friendly toward anyone who has a good personality.

 

[Deeje]

I herewith submit proof that god makes volcanoes erupt.

I herewith submit proof that god causes earthquakes.

I herewith submit that God did not cause any "natural" disaster....but neither did he prevent them because humans think they don't need him.

I submit that when a disaster happens from a "natural" cause, that atheists would then welcome his intervention.

 

[Deeje]

You haven't answered my question.


So do the JW church have a history of excommunicating people - and encouraging their followers not to interact with said people - if, for instance, they left the faith?


No, indoctrination isn't "teaching your child", indoctrination is a specific form of education which allows no room for questioning and enforces itself through repetition, fear tactics and emotion.


"It's better than nothing" isn't really a valid argument.


Excuse me?


The latter. The point being that they didn't care if I was exposed to opposing views.


Which is completely irrelevant and means nothing.


Indoctrination.


Which is also completely irrelevant and means nothing.


Then you're delusional.


Do you not see the hilarious contradiction in that statement?

"There is NO ritual in our weekly meetings?"


So what do you do to encourage questioning of the Bible and thinking outside of JW teachings? Do you cover any other religious texts?


And which people, according to you and your church, are unscrupulous? Do atheists often come up in that category?


But what DON'T you teach them? To question your beliefs? Critical thinking? Science?


And do you encourage them to think for themselves?


Yes, how can you honestly say you don't indoctrinate your children? How do you know what you're doing isn't leaving no room for questioning and skepticism from them?

Oh look....an inquisition. Listen to yourself....

Turn these questions on to atheists as well as see how they stack up.

Do we disfellowshipped those who unrepentantly engage in conduct that brings reproach on the whole brotherhood....? Yes we do. Do you like rebels in your house influencing other members to follow suit? We kick them out as the Bible says we should. One rotten apple can spread the rot to the whole barrel.

Do we disfellowship those who simply "leave the faith"....NO. If such ones leave the faith for their own reasons, they have severed their own relationship with the brotherhood. We no longer have anything in common with them. They usually do not seek fellowship with us for the same reason.

There is no "ritual" in our weekly meetings any more than there is "ritual" in eating....drinking....going to work....going to school....engaging in sport....good grief....ask these questions of anyone.

You think your atheist parents didn't counter any religious ideas you may have gained at school? Wouldn't they see this as their right? Reverse that and apply it to Christian parents with kids in public schools. (Those who might not be able to afford a better education)

This is nothing but a twisted vendetta. Have you appointed yourself as my judge? You know what happens when people ignorantly point fingers at others with only half a story....this is what I see in your post. You have no idea.

 

[Deeje]

Interesting. I had never heard this about them before, but indeed there does seems to be supporting evidence, for instance here: Watchtower Quotes Regarding Advanced Education
(Hard to know what is objective on the web but this site does at least back up its contention with quotes.)

I find this unforgivable.

Oh dear, again you base your assessment on half a story. One of the main reasons why JW parents discourage some forms of higher education is because we do not see money and earning capacity as a measure of success in life, especially in this 'dog eat dog' world. We see materialism as a source of misery, never satiated, always demanding more in the mistaken notion that "things" make you happy. If you aren't happy, it's because you don't have enough 'things'....or we need the latest 'thing'....buy more. The more materialistic humans become, the more dissatisfaction and unhappiness they experience. Open your eyes.

We have entirely different ideas about what makes a person successful in life. We do not discourage the kind of education that will help us earn a living...we just do not see the point of morally endangering our young ones in the lifestyle that college or university students engage in. It is a culture of drinking, drugs and immorality. We would not put our children in a literal snake pit, nor would we encourage our children to go into a moral snake pit.
There are other ways to gain an education and skills for a job without doing that.

In Australia, a university education does not guarantee anyone a job. When they complete their degree but can't find employment in their chosen field, if they apply for other jobs, they get rejected as "overqualified".....higher education is over emphasized and unnecessary in our opinion. We live quite well without it. There are many in our ranks who have qualifications in many fields, (doctors, scientists, engineers etc.) which were gained before they became JW's. They confirm what we already know.

We have very successful families because parents are not always slaves to their work, leaving their kids unattended at home exposed to all the dangers of the internet with no safeguards. Moral danger is every bit as important as physical danger.

Families are disintegrating because communication is totally stifled due to the way people talk to each other now. Social media is a substitute for real conversation. Who are "friends" these days?

We live in a 'throwaway' society and families are no longer the safe haven they once were because marriage is also 'throwaway'. How many kids today are raised by the people who created them?
What happened to discipline? What happens to kids without it?

Once communication has broken down, it is so difficult to break through that barrier. We try not to let that barrier form in the first place. Kids don't need more things....they need parents as guides and people who love them enough to want to protect them in an open and loving family environment.

What is wrong with that?

 

[exchemist]

Oh dear, again you base your assessment on half a story. One of the main reasons why JW parents discourage some forms of higher education is because we do not see money and earning capacity as a measure of success in life, especially in this 'dog eat dog' world. We see materialism as a source of misery, never satiated, always demanding more in the mistaken notion that "things" make you happy. If you aren't happy, it's because you don't have enough 'things'....or we need the latest 'thing'....buy more. The more materialistic humans become, the more dissatisfaction and unhappiness they experience. Open your eyes.

We have entirely different ideas about what makes a person successful in life. We do not discourage the kind of education that will help us earn a living...we just do not see the point of morally endangering our young ones in the lifestyle that college or university students engage in. It is a culture of drinking, drugs and immorality. We would not put our children in a literal snake pit, nor would we encourage our children to go into a moral snake pit.
There are other ways to gain an education and skills for a job without doing that.

In Australia, a university education does not guarantee anyone a job. When they complete their degree but can't find employment in their chosen field, if they apply for other jobs, they get rejected as "overqualified".....higher education is over emphasized and unnecessary in our opinion. We live quite well without it. There are many in our ranks who have qualifications in many fields, (doctors, scientists, engineers etc.) which were gained before they became JW's. They confirm what we already know.

We have very successful families because parents are not always slaves to their work, leaving their kids unattended at home exposed to all the dangers of the internet with no safeguards. Moral danger is every bit as important as physical danger.

Families are disintegrating because communication is totally stifled due to the way people talk to each other now. Social media is a substitute for real conversation. Who are "friends" these days?

We live in a 'throwaway' society and families are no longer the safe haven they once were because marriage is also 'throwaway'. How many kids today are raised by the people who created them?
What happened to discipline? What happens to kids without it?

Once communication has broken down, it is so difficult to break through that barrier. We try not to let that barrier form in the first place. Kids don't need more things....they need parents as guides and people who love them enough to want to protect them in an open and loving family environment.

What is wrong with that?

What is wrong with that is that higher education is about a great deal more than making money. It is about expanding your mind, both in knowledge and capacity to reason so that, whatever your financial circumstances, you can get more out of life.

Your post is incoherent. First you say JWs are ambivalent about higher education because they are not materialistic. Next you say higher education does not guarantee a better job anyway. Then you launch into an unconnected speech about disintegration of the family, with an ignorant caricature of university life thrown in.

This betrays a deep fear you (and other JWs?) evidently have about giving young adults their freedom to experiment, make mistakes and find their own way. They are not children any more when they go to university.

You do not show love for your children by discouraging them from exploring their potential and expanding their minds. To discourage learning is one of the most despicable things you can possibly do to a person.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Oh look....an inquisition. Listen to yourself....

Why do you fear questioning? I'm just trying to learn your beliefs.

Turn these questions on to atheists as well as see how they stack up.

Since "atheists" aren't a group with uniform, singular practices, that's virtually impossible.

Do we disfellowshipped those who unrepentantly engage in conduct that brings reproach on the whole brotherhood....? Yes we do. Do you like rebels in your house influencing other members to follow suit? We kick them out as the Bible says we should. One rotten apple can spread the rot to the whole barrel.

So do you encourage families to alienate and not communicate with members or friends who don't agree with the churches ideals?

Do we disfellowship those who simply "leave the faith"....NO. If such ones leave the faith for their own reasons, they have severed their own relationship with the brotherhood. We no longer have anything in common with them. They usually do not seek fellowship with us for the same reason.

So members of the church are NOT discouraged from interacting with people who leave the faith?

There is no "ritual" in our weekly meetings any more than there is "ritual" in eating....drinking....going to work....going to school....engaging in sport....good grief....ask these questions of anyone.

So what are the consequences for not wanting to attend a weekly meeting?

You think your atheist parents didn't counter any religious ideas you may have gained at school? Wouldn't they see this as their right? Reverse that and apply it to Christian parents with kids in public schools. (Those who might not be able to afford a better education)

My parents did not influence by religious upbringing in any way other than to explain their own views and expose me to other ones. They made no effort to "counter" any view I experienced other than to allow me to use my own judgement to accept or dismiss them.

This is nothing but a twisted vendetta. Have you appointed yourself as my judge? You know what happens when people ignorantly point fingers at others with only half a story....this is what I see in your post. You have no idea.

Such a violent reaction to merely being asked questions. Sounds like you have a lot to hide.

 

[ecco]

I herewith submit that God did not cause any "natural" disaster....but neither did he prevent them because humans think they don't need him.

When you are asked to submit proof of your god, you submit pictures of birds. You thereby imply that everything in nature is proof of god. But then you turn around and say that earthquakes are not proof of god. What hypocrisy!

Either nature is caused by god or nature is not caused by god.
Either nature is proof of god or nature is not proof of god.

I'm not surprised by your hypocrisy. You have been taught to accept hypocrisy as part of your overall mindset. This is evident from your acceptance of the hypocrisy surrounding the failed 1914 "predictions".

I submit that when a disaster happens from a "natural" cause, that atheists would then welcome his intervention.

More meaningless drivel.

 

[ecco]

Do we disfellowshipped those who unrepentantly engage in conduct that brings reproach on the whole brotherhood....?

"...the whole BROTHERHOOD"? Is that what it's called, a BROTHERHOOD? I guess that makes clear the standing of women in JW.

 

[ecco]

You think your atheist parents didn't counter any religious ideas you may have gained at school?

I was an atheist child of religious parents. I didn't get kicked out of the house.

I'm an atheist parent. I didn't kick my daughter out of the house for her religious beliefs. Neither did I kick my wife out for her religious beliefs. In fact we celebrated xmas just like most everyone else did.

Not many people, religious or atheist, are as intolerant as JW. Intolerance stems from fear.

You know what happens when people ignorantly point fingers at others with only half a story....this is what I see in your post. You have no idea.

You know what happens when people ignorantly point fingers at others with only half a story....this is what I see in your post. You have no idea.