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Does Ecclesiastes 9:5 support the Jehovah's Witness view of the afterlife?
- Thread starter danieldemol
- Start date
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Jesus showed us when he walked this earth that he could raise the dead to life. It was just a brief demonstration of what will take place when Jesus rules as King of God's Kingdom. He taught us to pray for the Kingdom to "come". He did not tell us that we go to the Kingdom, but rather that it comes to us....only then will God's will "be done on earth as it is in heaven". This is when Jesus will raise the dead.
John 5:28-29 is speaking about the 'second' or 'general' resurrection of the dead back to paradise conditions...the same ones he promised the evil doer hung alongside him.
There are two resurrections.....a "first"one to heaven for those chosen to rule with Christ (Revelation 20:6) and one for those over whom they will rule. (John 5:28-29; Revelation 21:2-4)
"All in their tombs" according to Jesus. He cannot call a person from their grave unless they are still in it.
It is the place where the dead "sleep" awaiting Jesus call to "come forth". (1 Thessalonians 4:13)
"The lake of fire" is the same as "gehenna"...it is a place of eternal death. As for "who" the lake of fire is...there is no "who" it is a "what".....called "the second death" because those who fall victim to the first death will come out of their graves to a resurrection, but those in gehenna will not. (Matthew 23:33)
Yep...positive.
You do understand that the word "immortal" means "deathless"? An immortal cannot die....even by the hand of God. It is "the power of an indestructible life". God can only destroy mortals. So the ones "destroyed" by God were never granted immortality in the first place. Those who go to heaven to rule with Jesus are the only ones granted this power because they have proven faithful to God under test, proving worthy of their choosing. (1 Corinthians 15:50-57)
No, it means that the ones in gehenna have had all prospects for future life eliminated. These have proven unworthy to retain the gift of life. The lake of fire lets no one out because whatever goes in there is "destroyed" forever. Fire is a symbol of complete destruction.
No there's not. There is no teaching of an immortal soul in any part of the Bible. If you'd like to explore any passage I can show you from other scripture why an immortal soul is not part of anything recorded in the scriptures.
If we have an immortal soul, then it means that God put us on this earth to die. There is nothing in Genesis to even suggest such a thing. Everlasting life was given to mortal humans at the start with the prospect that if they obeyed their Creator, they could live forever here on earth. (Genesis 3:22-24)
I cannot see where God changed that arrangement. (Isaiah 55:11)
Well first of all, the flesh body is what dies, the soul, spirit, that is within the body does not die, it returns back to God.
Then at the day of judgment God will decide whether the soul,spirit should be destroyed or not. So the soul, spirit, is immortal until God decides whether to destroy it or not.
Yes, immortal means ( deathless) that is why the soul,spirit does not die, only your flesh body dies.
Now for John 5:28-29
Verse 28---"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice"
Look back at the time of Christ Jesus was here on earth, people understood when a person died, the grave was a place that held people in captivity.
But now after the death and Resurrection of Christ Jesus, Christ Jesus defeated the power that the grave had over people, that the grave no longer holds people in it's captivity.
That's why it's written in
1st Corinthians 15:55--"O death, where is your sting? O grave where is your victory"
Where once the grave held people in it's captivity, that now after the death and Resurrection of Christ Jesus, The grave no longer holds people in it's captivity.
That means there is no one in the grave, except their dead body corpse.this where the great gulf fix, that Christ Jesus spoke about in Luke 16:26, when people die, they will go to either the good side of the great gulf or they that done bad will go on the bad side of the gulf awaiting judgment.
Let's look at Ecclesiastes 12:7--"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"
Seeing our flesh body shall return back to dust of the earth as it was, before God created man from the dust of the earth.
And our spirit,soul, shall return back to God who gave it, That means the soul,spirit does not die.but has returned back to God, who gave it. Depending what a person has done in their life time, will be on the good side or the bad side of the great gulf fix.
Those that are on the bad side of the great gulf fix, will be judged on the day of judgment.
Christ Jesus speaks in and about the grave, people take it literally that Christ Jesus is speaking about some hole in the ground. Which Christ Jesus is not.
The grave represents those people who are spiritually dead. That when Christ Jesus comes those that are spiritually dead, hear his voice and comes forth out of their spiritually deadness shall live. And those who do not come forth will be taken to judgement. To be judge according to what they have done in their life time.
Now as for John 5:29---"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation"
Seeing that those that did the translation of the Greek and Hebrew into English, did the best they could with what limited tools they had at that time.
The word ( damnation ) the better translation would haved been
( Judgement )
So it would haved read, ( unto the resurrection of judgement)
Those that are spiritually dead, unto the resurrection of judgement.
You put a lot of faith in the book of Sirach! Sorry, but it is apocryphal....not accepted as Bible Canon. Certainly not the Jewish Canon, although written by a Jew.
If it had been inspired, Jehovah would have had it included with the 66 books we have now. It’s no more inspired than the books of Enoch, Judith, Maccabees, Tobit, or Bel and the Dragon.
If a person accepts one of them, he might as well accept all of them as inspired. But then, by accepting them, he would be saying that God lacks the power to preserve all inspired books He approves of, together.
To try and give something credibility by saying Catholicism approves of it....well....they (along with almost all Christendom) also approve of killing their brothers of another nationality, if a conflict arises. Really, what credibility is that?
That destroys it all, to me. Jesus, too. — John 13:34-35; John 15:14
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You will notice that it's "the smoke of their torment" that ascends, not that the torment itself continues forever.
When a fire has gone through an area, destroying everything in its path, what remains as a reminder for some time after the flames have been extinguished? The smouldering continues for some time and adds to the feeling of devastation when people have lost everything.
We will never forget the lesson that their wicked course was used to teach us.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
Jesus showed us when he walked this earth that he could raise the dead to life. It was just a brief demonstration of what will take place when Jesus rules as King of God's Kingdom. He taught us to pray for the Kingdom to "come". He did not tell us that we go to the Kingdom, but rather that it comes to us....only then will God's will "be done on earth as it is in heaven". This is when Jesus will raise the dead.
John 5:28-29 is speaking about the 'second' or 'general' resurrection of the dead back to paradise conditions...the same ones he promised the evil doer hung alongside him.
There are two resurrections.....a "first"one to heaven for those chosen to rule with Christ (Revelation 20:6) and one for those over whom they will rule. (John 5:28-29; Revelation 21:2-4)
"All in their tombs" according to Jesus. He cannot call a person from their grave unless they are still in it.
It is the place where the dead "sleep" awaiting Jesus call to "come forth". (1 Thessalonians 4:13)
"The lake of fire" is the same as "gehenna"...it is a place of eternal death. As for "who" the lake of fire is...there is no "who" it is a "what".....called "the second death" because those who fall victim to the first death will come out of their graves to a resurrection, but those in gehenna will not. (Matthew 23:33)
Yep...positive.
You do understand that the word "immortal" means "deathless"? An immortal cannot die....even by the hand of God. It is "the power of an indestructible life". God can only destroy mortals. So the ones "destroyed" by God were never granted immortality in the first place. Those who go to heaven to rule with Jesus are the only ones granted this power because they have proven faithful to God under test, proving worthy of their choosing. (1 Corinthians 15:50-57)
No, it means that the ones in gehenna have had all prospects for future life eliminated. These have proven unworthy to retain the gift of life. The lake of fire lets no one out because whatever goes in there is "destroyed" forever. Fire is a symbol of complete destruction.
No there's not. There is no teaching of an immortal soul in any part of the Bible. If you'd like to explore any passage I can show you from other scripture why an immortal soul is not part of anything recorded in the scriptures.
If we have an immortal soul, then it means that God put us on this earth to die. There is nothing in Genesis to even suggest such a thing. Everlasting life was given to mortal humans at the start with the prospect that if they obeyed their Creator, they could live forever here on earth. (Genesis 3:22-24)
I cannot see where God changed that arrangement. (Isaiah 55:11)
Deeje wrote……. Jesus showed us when he walked this earth that he could raise the dead to life. It was just a brief demonstration of what will take place when Jesus rules as King of God's Kingdom. He taught us to pray for the Kingdom to "come". He did not tell us that we go to the Kingdom, but rather that it comes to us....only then will God's will "be done on earth as it is in heaven". This is when Jesus will raise the dead.
The Anointed……. So did Elijah and Elisha, but the bodies of all those including Lazarus have long since decomposed and returned to the elements from which they were created, unlike the man Jesus who was raised by our Lord God and saviour..
Deeje wrote……. John 5:28-29 is speaking about the 'second' or 'general' resurrection of the dead back to paradise conditions...the same ones he promised the evil doer hung alongside him.
The Anointed……. Correct! Those who have done good will rise to life, but the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Deeje wrote……. There are two resurrections.....a "first" one to heaven for those chosen to rule with Christ (Revelation 20:6) and one for those over whom they will rule. (John 5:28-29; Revelation 21:2-4)
The Anointed……. The first resurrection occurred the moment Jesus gave up his spirit on the cross and the graves of the saints were opened and three days later they entered the city and showed themselves as the risen Christ, the only begotten son of God, who had filled the man Jesus with his spirit, and gave his immortal life, ceasing to be an individual entity for his elect and chosen ones.
These are the conscious dead to whom the Gospel/Good News was preached by Jesus, [See 1st Peter 4: 6.] Those who had been judged in their physical existence as everyone is judged, it was preached to them in order that in their spiritual existence they might live as God lives. [Middle English gospel. Old English Godspell, “Good News” (Translation of late Latin evangelium, EVANGEL.) god, GOOD + spel, NEWS.]
When Elijah, the Jewish Messiah appears and gathers the required number of Jews and Gentiles, it is they, who fill with their spirit, the chosen ones who will take the thrones that have been prepared for them on earth and rule as kings for a thousand years, after which the Last Trumpet shall sound and as fire descends from heaven to incinerate all physical life on this planet as reveal in Zephaniah, they shall be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, from bodies of corruptible matter, into glorious bodies of incorruptible and blinding light.
Faithofchristian said: ↑
Who is the dead in reference to ?
Deeje wrote……. "All in their tombs" according to Jesus. He cannot call a person from their grave unless they are still in it.
The Anointed ……. And unless they are conscious and hear his call
Faithofchristian said: ↑
What is the grave in reference to?
Deeje wrote……. It is the place where the dead "sleep" awaiting Jesus call to "come forth". (1 Thessalonians 4:13)
The Anointed……. It is the place where the righteous dead can rest in peace as they await the resurrection, and where the wicked await in terrible mental torment day and night, as they await their unknown future.
Faithofchristian said: ↑
In speaking about the lake of fire, What is the lake of fire?
Have any idea who the lake of fire is ?
Deeje wrote...…. "The lake of fire" is the same as "gehenna"...it is a place of eternal death. As for "who" the lake of fire is...there is no "who" it is a "what".....called "the second death" because those who fall victim to the first death will come out of their graves to a resurrection, but those in gehenna will not. (Matthew 23:33)
The Anointed……. All will be resurrected on the Great Day of judgement, those who have done good will rise and live, those who have done evil will rise and be condemned and cast into the Lake of fire which is the second death.
Faithofchristian said: ↑
You made mention, that there no teaching of an immortal soul. Are you sure about this ?
Deeje wrote…….. Yep...positive.
Faithofchristian said: ↑
Let's go to the book of Matthew 10:28 -----
-----"28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"
Do you understand what Christ Jesus is saying here ?
Jesus said ( fear not them which kill the body) here we find the body is not immortal, seeing the body can be killed.
Jesus also said ( but are not able to kill the soul) here we find the soul can not be killed by man, So that means the soul is immortal.that can not be killed by man.
Deeje wrote……. You do understand that the word "immortal" means "deathless"? An immortal cannot die....even by the hand of God. It is "the power of an indestructible life". God can only destroy mortals. So the ones "destroyed" by God were never granted immortality in the first place. Those who go to heaven to rule with Jesus are the only ones granted this power because they have proven faithful to God under test, proving worthy of their choosing. (1 Corinthians 15:50-57)
You made mention, that there no teaching of an immortal soul. Are you sure about this ?
Deeje wrote…….. Yep...positive.
Faithofchristian said: ↑
Let's go to the book of Matthew 10:28 -----
-----"28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"
Do you understand what Christ Jesus is saying here ?
Jesus said ( fear not them which kill the body) here we find the body is not immortal, seeing the body can be killed.
Jesus also said ( but are not able to kill the soul) here we find the soul can not be killed by man, So that means the soul is immortal.that can not be killed by man.
Deeje wrote……. You do understand that the word "immortal" means "deathless"? An immortal cannot die....even by the hand of God. It is "the power of an indestructible life". God can only destroy mortals. So the ones "destroyed" by God were never granted immortality in the first place. Those who go to heaven to rule with Jesus are the only ones granted this power because they have proven faithful to God under test, proving worthy of their choosing. (1 Corinthians 15:50-57)
To be continued.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
Continued from previous post.
The Anointed……. The immortals cannot die, But God can and does make mortal man immortal: Luke 20: 34-38; Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and they can no longer die; [They are immortal] for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection. 37But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the LORD 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."
He is the FIRST and the LAST, the BEGINNING and END, The ALPHA and the OMEGA, the FATHR AND THE SON. Have you never experienced a visitation of the Omega in his descent to the Alpha , who he once was?
Faithofchristian said: ↑
Jesus also said ( but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell)
Here we find only God can kill both soul and body.
So that means, that the soul is immortal, only up to the time God decides to destroy the soul. Other than that, the soul is immortal. That can not die Nor be killed by man, only God has the power to destroy the soul.
Deeje wrote……. No, it means that the ones in gehenna have had all prospects for future life eliminated. These have proven unworthy to retain the gift of life. The lake of fire lets no one out because whatever goes in there is "destroyed" forever. Fire is a symbol of complete destruction.
The Anointed……No one Goes into the lake of fire [Gehenna] until the great day of judgement, when the righteous and wicked are brought up from the world of Hades. The righteous unto ever-lasting life, the wicked to condemnation, who are then cast into the Lake of fire, which is the second death, when the spirit/mind is divided from the immortal soul, which is then as a dead thing until God gives it a new heart [BODY] and a new mind [SPIRIT].
Faithofchristian said: ↑
So there's penty of teachings by Christ Jesus in and about a immortal soul. If you know what to look for.
Deeje wrote……. No there's not. There is no teaching of an immortal soul in any part of the Bible. If you'd like to explore any passage I can show you from other scripture why an immortal soul is not part of anything recorded in the scriptures.
If we have an immortal soul, then it means that God put us on this earth to die. There is nothing in Genesis to even suggest such a thing. Everlasting life was given to mortal humans at the start with the prospect that if they obeyed their Creator, they could live forever here on earth. (Genesis 3:22-24)
I cannot see where God changed that arrangement. (Isaiah 55:11)
The Anointed……. God will do all that he has said. Those who have died the first death, which is that of the body, but not the spirit or soul, will be called up from the world of Hades, those to ever lasting life and those who are to suffer the second death in the lake of fire when God divides the spirit/mind from the soul and they suffer ever lasting, “eternal death.”
Oh well, the grandkids have just pulled up out front, so I’ll catch you all later.
The Anointed……. The immortals cannot die, But God can and does make mortal man immortal: Luke 20: 34-38; Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and they can no longer die; [They are immortal] for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection. 37But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the LORD 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."
He is the FIRST and the LAST, the BEGINNING and END, The ALPHA and the OMEGA, the FATHR AND THE SON. Have you never experienced a visitation of the Omega in his descent to the Alpha , who he once was?
Faithofchristian said: ↑
Jesus also said ( but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell)
Here we find only God can kill both soul and body.
So that means, that the soul is immortal, only up to the time God decides to destroy the soul. Other than that, the soul is immortal. That can not die Nor be killed by man, only God has the power to destroy the soul.
Deeje wrote……. No, it means that the ones in gehenna have had all prospects for future life eliminated. These have proven unworthy to retain the gift of life. The lake of fire lets no one out because whatever goes in there is "destroyed" forever. Fire is a symbol of complete destruction.
The Anointed……No one Goes into the lake of fire [Gehenna] until the great day of judgement, when the righteous and wicked are brought up from the world of Hades. The righteous unto ever-lasting life, the wicked to condemnation, who are then cast into the Lake of fire, which is the second death, when the spirit/mind is divided from the immortal soul, which is then as a dead thing until God gives it a new heart [BODY] and a new mind [SPIRIT].
Faithofchristian said: ↑
So there's penty of teachings by Christ Jesus in and about a immortal soul. If you know what to look for.
Deeje wrote……. No there's not. There is no teaching of an immortal soul in any part of the Bible. If you'd like to explore any passage I can show you from other scripture why an immortal soul is not part of anything recorded in the scriptures.
If we have an immortal soul, then it means that God put us on this earth to die. There is nothing in Genesis to even suggest such a thing. Everlasting life was given to mortal humans at the start with the prospect that if they obeyed their Creator, they could live forever here on earth. (Genesis 3:22-24)
I cannot see where God changed that arrangement. (Isaiah 55:11)
The Anointed……. God will do all that he has said. Those who have died the first death, which is that of the body, but not the spirit or soul, will be called up from the world of Hades, those to ever lasting life and those who are to suffer the second death in the lake of fire when God divides the spirit/mind from the soul and they suffer ever lasting, “eternal death.”
Oh well, the grandkids have just pulled up out front, so I’ll catch you all later.
I can see that you have worked all this out, but I have to wonder whether any other Catholic people subscribe to your POV?
Thanks for not dragging up the book of Sirach again. It does not belong in a Christian Bible discussion.
Jesus' body was not left to rot in a tomb because it was prophesied that his flesh "would not see corruption". Yet Peter said that Jesus was "put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit". So Jesus was not raised in the flesh. In order to return to heaven, Jesus had to become a spirit. As a spirit being, he had the ability to materialise fleshly bodies. In such bodies he "appeared" to his disciples in human form, but he did not stay with his apostles during that time, as he had the previous three and a half years. During the 40 days after his resurrection, and before his ascension, he only visited them, briefly to encourage them for the rough time ahead.
There are actually three classes of people according to the scriptures. Jesus said that he was going to raise "both the righteous and the unrighteousness" at the same time and in the same way. Both would be called out of their graves and judged either worthy of "life" or "judgment". So what constitutes an "unrighteous" person as opposed to a "wicked" one?
Both John the Baptist and Jesus castigated the Pharisees as "wicked" and told them in no uncertain terms why they had been judged that way, and what their fate would be. "Gehenna" was the place Jesus consigned them to. What did Jews understand "Gehenna" to mean? There was no concept of a hell of eternal fiery torment because that idea is completely missing from Jewish scripture. In fact, under God's law there was no torture involved in any punishment....there weren't even any jails.
"Gehenna" to a Jew was the garbage dump outside of the city's walls where the carcasses of dead animals were burned along with bodies of executed criminals whose remains were cast into the flames for disposal. Fires were kept burning day and night by the addition of brimstone (sulphur) and what the flames missed, the maggots finished off. Those cast into Gehenna were those who were not considered worthy of a decent burial and hence had no tomb. For a Jew, this meant no resurrection because the Messiah was going to call them from their tombs, which were clearly identified with their names and family lineage. Visit any Jewish cemetery and see how elaborate their tombs are.
The Catholic Church took Jesus' words and grafted them over the pagan idea of a hell of eternal fiery torture, whereas Jesus had simply spoken about eternal death. The ancient Jews did not subscribe to the notion of an immortal soul.....that corruption came later from Hellenic (Greek) influence, as it did the "Christians".
Thanks for not dragging up the book of Sirach again. It does not belong in a Christian Bible discussion.
Jesus' body was not left to rot in a tomb because it was prophesied that his flesh "would not see corruption". Yet Peter said that Jesus was "put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit". So Jesus was not raised in the flesh. In order to return to heaven, Jesus had to become a spirit. As a spirit being, he had the ability to materialise fleshly bodies. In such bodies he "appeared" to his disciples in human form, but he did not stay with his apostles during that time, as he had the previous three and a half years. During the 40 days after his resurrection, and before his ascension, he only visited them, briefly to encourage them for the rough time ahead.
There are actually three classes of people according to the scriptures. Jesus said that he was going to raise "both the righteous and the unrighteousness" at the same time and in the same way. Both would be called out of their graves and judged either worthy of "life" or "judgment". So what constitutes an "unrighteous" person as opposed to a "wicked" one?
Both John the Baptist and Jesus castigated the Pharisees as "wicked" and told them in no uncertain terms why they had been judged that way, and what their fate would be. "Gehenna" was the place Jesus consigned them to. What did Jews understand "Gehenna" to mean? There was no concept of a hell of eternal fiery torment because that idea is completely missing from Jewish scripture. In fact, under God's law there was no torture involved in any punishment....there weren't even any jails.
"Gehenna" to a Jew was the garbage dump outside of the city's walls where the carcasses of dead animals were burned along with bodies of executed criminals whose remains were cast into the flames for disposal. Fires were kept burning day and night by the addition of brimstone (sulphur) and what the flames missed, the maggots finished off. Those cast into Gehenna were those who were not considered worthy of a decent burial and hence had no tomb. For a Jew, this meant no resurrection because the Messiah was going to call them from their tombs, which were clearly identified with their names and family lineage. Visit any Jewish cemetery and see how elaborate their tombs are.
The Catholic Church took Jesus' words and grafted them over the pagan idea of a hell of eternal fiery torture, whereas Jesus had simply spoken about eternal death. The ancient Jews did not subscribe to the notion of an immortal soul.....that corruption came later from Hellenic (Greek) influence, as it did the "Christians".
The "first resurrection", according to the apostle Paul, does not take place until Christ's return.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17....."But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who have died,[b] so that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died.[c] 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died.[d] 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever."
The footnote concerning the word "died" is literally "fallen asleep" in the NRSV Catholic Edition.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+thess+4:13-17&version=NRSVCE
So...for the chosen ones, there is a timeline here.....first of all Paul speaks about not being "uninformed" about those who have "fallen asleep" in death. Paul is saying that those with "the heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1) who are alive when Jesus returns will not go to heaven before the one who are sleeping in their graves. He says that these will "rise first" when Jesus calls them from their graves, and then those who are still alive will be taken up "to meet the Lord in the air". This was all to take place when Jesus returned. So no one went to heaven before Jesus....and no one was to go to heaven before Jesus was ready to establish his Kingdom on earth. Sleeping in death could have involved many centuries.
The incident that occurred after the earthquake where the bodies of the saints were exposed is rather vague. But it was not unusual for earthquakes to unearth interred bodies. The bodies of these "saints" were visible and from no account in the Bible do we see any other mention of them. It isn't even clear whether it was the saints, or the people who saw them that went into the city to speak of it. The rest of your statement is your own musings I'm afraid. We are not to go "beyond what is written". You have added your own spin to that account.
"Elijah the Jewish Messiah"? Elijah was pictured in the role of John the Baptist, not Jesus. He was sent ahead of Jesus to prepare the people to receive him.
Where does it say that God is going to incinerate all physical life on this planet? Why would he need to? Peter spoke of "a new heavens and a new earth" where righteousness was to dwell.
He said...
"4 Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tarʹta·rus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment. 5 And he did not refrain from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a flood upon a world of ungodly people. 6 And by reducing the cities of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah to ashes, he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly people of things to come." (2 Peter 2:4-6)
Here the examples of Noah's flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah are used as examples of what the "ungodly" can expect in the future. After the flood God gave his assurance that he would never wipe out all flesh by flood again. So why would he do so by fire?
He promised...."And the rainbow will occur in the cloud, and I will certainly see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of every kind on the earth.”
God repeated to Noah: “This is the sign of the covenant that I establish between me and all flesh that is on the earth.” (Genesis 9:14-16) It is the only the "ungodly" who will perish.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
Deeje wote……. The "first resurrection", according to the apostle Paul, does not take place until Christ's return.
The Anointed……. And where does the bible say that the “FIRST RESURRECTION” does not take place until Christ’s return?
Deeje wote……. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17....."But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who have died,[b] so that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died.[c] 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died.[d] 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever."
The Anointed……. The first to be resurrected when Christ returns, is not the first resurrection, when Jesus gave up his spirit on the cross and the graves were opened and many bodies of saints which slept arose. See Matthew 27: 52.
Deeje wote……. The footnote concerning the word "died" is literally "fallen asleep" in the NRSV Catholic Edition.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+thess+4:13-17&version=NRSVCE
So...for the chosen ones, there is a timeline here.....first of all Paul speaks about not being "uninformed" about those who have "fallen asleep" in death. Paul is saying that those with "the heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1) who are alive when Jesus returns will not go to heaven before the one who are sleeping in their graves. He says that these will "rise first" when Jesus calls them from their graves, and then those who are still alive will be taken up "to meet the Lord in the air". This was all to take place when Jesus returned. So no one went to heaven before Jesus....and no one was to go to heaven before Jesus was ready to establish his Kingdom on earth. Sleeping in death could have involved many centuries.
The Anointed……. What has Hebrews 3:1; to do with the subject at hand other than to inform us that God has chosen the man Jesus to be our apostle and high priest?
Deeje wrote……. The incident that occurred after the earthquake where the bodies of the saints were exposed is rather vague. But it was not unusual for earthquakes to unearth interred bodies. The bodies of these "saints" were visible and from no account in the Bible do we see any other mention of them. It isn't even clear whether it was the saints, or the people who saw them that went into the city to speak of it. The rest of your statement is your own musings I'm afraid. We are not to go "beyond what is written". You have added your own spin to that account.
The Anointed……. Sorry sunshine, it is you who have forsaken the word of God and put your own spin on that account...……... From the KJV, your favourite translation….Matthew 27: 52-53; “And the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints arose and came out of their graves after his resurrection and went into the Holy City and appeared to many.
Why do you attempt to hide the truth of the ‘FIRST RESURRECTION’ of the dead, by saying; “It isn't even clear whether it was the saints, or the people who saw them that went into the city to speak of it,” when your favourite translation clearly reveals the bodies of the saints who were at rest in the anointed one, came out of their graves three days after those graves were opened and went into the Holy City and showed themselves to many.
The Anointed said: ↑
When Elijah, the Jewish Messiah appears and gathers the required number of Jews and Gentiles, it is they, who fill with their spirit, the chosen ones who will take the thrones that have been prepared for them on earth and rule as kings for a thousand years, after which the Last Trumpet shall sound and as fire descends from heaven to incinerate all physical life on this planet as reveal in Zephaniah, they shall be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, from bodies of corruptible matter, into glorious bodies of incorruptible and blinding light.
Deeje wrote……. "Elijah the Jewish Messiah"? Elijah was pictured in the role of John the Baptist, not Jesus. He was sent ahead of Jesus to prepare the people to receive him.
The Anointed……. Mark 9: 11; the disciples ask Jesus, “Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah has to come first?” His answer is, “Elijah is indeed coming first to get everything ready etc.” [Future tense]
After the death of John the Baptist Matthew 17: 10-11; The disciples ask Jesus, “Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah has to come first?” His answer is, “Elijah is indeed coming first and HE WILL GET EVERYTHING READY, etc. [Future tense]
Elijah comes to prepare the way.
Malachi 4:5; “But before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes, I will send you the prophet Elijah.
Malachi 3:1-2; The Lord Almighty answers. “I will send you my Messenger to prepare the way for me. Then the Lord you are looking for will suddenly come to his Temple. The Messenger you long to see will come and proclaim my covenant. But who will be able to endue the day when he comes? Who will be able to survive when he appears?
To be continued.
The Anointed……. And where does the bible say that the “FIRST RESURRECTION” does not take place until Christ’s return?
Deeje wote……. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17....."But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who have died,[b] so that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died.[c] 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died.[d] 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever."
The Anointed……. The first to be resurrected when Christ returns, is not the first resurrection, when Jesus gave up his spirit on the cross and the graves were opened and many bodies of saints which slept arose. See Matthew 27: 52.
Deeje wote……. The footnote concerning the word "died" is literally "fallen asleep" in the NRSV Catholic Edition.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+thess+4:13-17&version=NRSVCE
So...for the chosen ones, there is a timeline here.....first of all Paul speaks about not being "uninformed" about those who have "fallen asleep" in death. Paul is saying that those with "the heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1) who are alive when Jesus returns will not go to heaven before the one who are sleeping in their graves. He says that these will "rise first" when Jesus calls them from their graves, and then those who are still alive will be taken up "to meet the Lord in the air". This was all to take place when Jesus returned. So no one went to heaven before Jesus....and no one was to go to heaven before Jesus was ready to establish his Kingdom on earth. Sleeping in death could have involved many centuries.
The Anointed……. What has Hebrews 3:1; to do with the subject at hand other than to inform us that God has chosen the man Jesus to be our apostle and high priest?
Deeje wrote……. The incident that occurred after the earthquake where the bodies of the saints were exposed is rather vague. But it was not unusual for earthquakes to unearth interred bodies. The bodies of these "saints" were visible and from no account in the Bible do we see any other mention of them. It isn't even clear whether it was the saints, or the people who saw them that went into the city to speak of it. The rest of your statement is your own musings I'm afraid. We are not to go "beyond what is written". You have added your own spin to that account.
The Anointed……. Sorry sunshine, it is you who have forsaken the word of God and put your own spin on that account...……... From the KJV, your favourite translation….Matthew 27: 52-53; “And the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints arose and came out of their graves after his resurrection and went into the Holy City and appeared to many.
Why do you attempt to hide the truth of the ‘FIRST RESURRECTION’ of the dead, by saying; “It isn't even clear whether it was the saints, or the people who saw them that went into the city to speak of it,” when your favourite translation clearly reveals the bodies of the saints who were at rest in the anointed one, came out of their graves three days after those graves were opened and went into the Holy City and showed themselves to many.
The Anointed said: ↑
When Elijah, the Jewish Messiah appears and gathers the required number of Jews and Gentiles, it is they, who fill with their spirit, the chosen ones who will take the thrones that have been prepared for them on earth and rule as kings for a thousand years, after which the Last Trumpet shall sound and as fire descends from heaven to incinerate all physical life on this planet as reveal in Zephaniah, they shall be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, from bodies of corruptible matter, into glorious bodies of incorruptible and blinding light.
Deeje wrote……. "Elijah the Jewish Messiah"? Elijah was pictured in the role of John the Baptist, not Jesus. He was sent ahead of Jesus to prepare the people to receive him.
The Anointed……. Mark 9: 11; the disciples ask Jesus, “Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah has to come first?” His answer is, “Elijah is indeed coming first to get everything ready etc.” [Future tense]
After the death of John the Baptist Matthew 17: 10-11; The disciples ask Jesus, “Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah has to come first?” His answer is, “Elijah is indeed coming first and HE WILL GET EVERYTHING READY, etc. [Future tense]
Elijah comes to prepare the way.
Malachi 4:5; “But before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes, I will send you the prophet Elijah.
Malachi 3:1-2; The Lord Almighty answers. “I will send you my Messenger to prepare the way for me. Then the Lord you are looking for will suddenly come to his Temple. The Messenger you long to see will come and proclaim my covenant. But who will be able to endue the day when he comes? Who will be able to survive when he appears?
To be continued.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
Continued from previous post.
Deeje wrote……. Where does it say that God is going to incinerate all physical life on this planet? Why would he need to?
The Anointed……. Zephaniah 1: 2-3; The Lord said, ”I am going to destroy everything on earth, all human beings, animals, birds and fish. I will bring about the downfall of the wicked. I will destroy all mankind and no survivors will be left. I the Lord have spoken.”
Verse 18; On the day when the Lord shows his fury, not even all their silver and gold will save them. The whole earth will be destroyed by the fire of his anger. He will put an end----a sudden end----to everyone who ‘LIVES ON EARTH.
Revelation 20; After the thousand year SABBATH, which is the future reality of which the weekly Sabbath was but a shadow, and ‘at the sound of the last trumpet’, fire comes down from heaven and there is no more sea, it is then the dead are raised to life, some to everlasting life, other to everlasting death, etc.
Deeje wrote……. Peter spoke of "a new heavens and a new earth" where righteousness was to dwell.
He said...
"4 Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into 'TAR'TA-RUS', putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment. 5 And he did not refrain from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a flood upon a world of ungodly people. 6 And by reducing the cities of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah to ashes, he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly people of things to come." (2 Peter 2:4-6)
Here the examples of Noah's flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah are used as examples of what the "ungodly" can expect in the future. After the flood God gave his assurance that he would never wipe out all flesh by flood again. So why would he do so by fire?
The Anointed…….. “FLOOD” being the operative word.
TARTARUS, in ancient Greek mythology, is the deep abyss that is used as a dungeon of torment and suffering for the wicked and as the prison for the Titans. As far below Hades as the earth is below the heavens, Tartarus is the place where, according to Plato in Gorgias (c. 400 BC), souls were judged after death and where the wicked received divine punishment.
Deeje wrote....... He promised...."And the rainbow will occur in the cloud, and I will certainly see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of every kind on the earth.”
God repeated to Noah: “This is the sign of the covenant that I establish between me and all flesh that is on the earth.” (Genesis 9:14-16) It is the only the "ungodly" who will perish.
The Anointed....... 2 Peter 3:10-13; But the day of the LORD will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
Malachi 1: 18; “On the day when the Lord shows his fury, not even all their silver and gold will save them. The whole earth will be destroyed by the fire of his anger. He will put an end----a sudden end----to everyone who ‘LIVES ON EARTH.”
We shall not all fall asleep in death, but at the sound of the last trumpet, we shall be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, from bodies of corruptible matter, into incorruptible bodies of brilliant and blinding light etc.
Good night sunshine, I'm off to bed..
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Its says their tormented day and night
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
It says They're tormented day and night.
While the righteous dead find peace and rest as they await the day when they will be resurrected to eternal life, the wicked suffer mental torment as they await the day when they will be cast back into the refining fires of physical life in the eternal cycle of rebirths or reincarnation.
Is there day and night in hell? What about heaven? Day and night only happens on earth. People can only be tormented whilst they are conscious.
They do so in an unconscious state as the scriptures have shown you. Even the unrighteous will be resurrected from the same place. It is the wicked who will never wake up. Do you understand the difference between 'unrighteous' and 'wicked'?
There is no immortal soul in the Bible.
Reincarnation now?
You really have broken your Catholic bonds, haven't you? Show me reincarnation in the Bible.....You sound like you have been to the celestial supermarket to shop for your beliefs....but it means little if you are the only one with 'your' selected beliefs tucked into your shopping trolley.
The Apostle Paul.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17....."But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who have died, so that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died. 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever."
NASB..."The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many."
Mounce Interlinear..."the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
53 ·After his resurrection they came out of the tombs· and entered the holy city and appeared to many."
YLT....."and the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who have fallen asleep, arose,
53 and having come forth out of the tombs after his rising, they went into the holy city, and appeared to many."
Had it been the big deal that you are imagining it was, then it would have been included by the other Bible writers...they are silent.
So tell me what happened to those saints.....? Where did they go? Why is this not mentioned by the other gospel writers? This would have been a monumental event and yet no one but Matthew said anything about it. The saints were to be raised to heaven....so what's wrong with this picture? If you expect that the dead will be reunited with their old bodies, then where are these "saints" now?
Paul clearly speaks about the "coming of the Lord" and that those who are "dead in Christ" (the chosen ones) would hear his call and then rise...the "first" ones to do so. There can only be one "first".
1 Cor 15:42-45.....
"So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."
The first resurrection is spiritual, not fleshly. There would be no fleshly bodies walking around.
It is addressed to those with "the heavenly calling" meaning that not everyone had the calling. Not all Christians are heaven bound.
I actually have very little time for the KJV. It is not a translation I ever use, so I don't know where you got that idea.
Why do you attempt to make a small, vague story into a big one? The "first resurrection" does not take place until Christ's presence as King of God's Kingdom.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
Is there day and night in hell? What about heaven? Day and night only happens on earth. People can only be tormented whilst they are conscious.
They do so in an unconscious state as the scriptures have shown you. Even the unrighteous will be resurrected from the same place. It is the wicked who will never wake up. Do you understand the difference between 'unrighteous' and 'wicked'?
There is no immortal soul in the Bible.
Reincarnation now?
You sound like you have been to the celestial supermarket to shop for your beliefs....but it means little if you are the only one with 'your' selected beliefs tucked into your shopping trolley.
allright said: ↑
Its says their tormented day and night
Deeje wrote……. Is there day and night in hell? What about heaven? Day and night only happens on earth. People can only be tormented whilst they are conscious.
The Anointed……. There is day and night on every planet that orbits a star. The was night before the universe came into being and the first day was when the massive first generation stars were created before any planets had come into existence.
The minor star/sun at the centre of our solar system was not created until the fourth creative day.
The Anointed said: ↑
While the righteous dead find peace and rest as they await the day when they will be resurrected to eternal life
Deeje wrote……. They do so in an unconscious state as the scriptures have shown you. Even the unrighteous will be resurrected from the same place. It is the wicked who will never wake up. Do you understand the difference between 'unrighteous' and 'wicked'?
There is no immortal soul in the Bible.
The Anointed……. Then how did the man Jesus after dying the first death, which is that of the physical body, and while still alive in spirit descend into Hades and preach the Good News/Gospel to the dead?
And how did the dead, who had been Judged in their physical existence as everyone is judged, to who Jesus in his spiritual state, before his body was resurrected to life, preached the Gospel/Good News, hear his message if they were unconscious? [See 1 Peter 4: 6.]
And the wicked disembodied spirits, who were created body, Soul and Spirit, and who have died the physical death, which does not destroy the Spirit or Soul, suffer torment day and night, until the great day of Judgement when 'ALL' those who have died the first death, are resurrected: Some to everlasting life, and those, who do not have their names written in the Book of Life [Rev 20: 15] are thrown into the lake of fire.
Those are they, who are recorded in Revelation 21: 8; The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
The suffering of unrighteous dead is finally ended as they enter eternal oblivion.
the wicked suffer mental torment as they await the day when they will be cast back into the refining fires of physical life in the eternal cycle of rebirths or reincarnation.
Deeje wrote……. Reincarnation now? You really have broken your Catholic bonds, haven't you? Show me reincarnation
The Anointed……. Never have I belonged to the Catholic organisation or any of her denominational daughters, who were spawned from her false teachings, such as that of some supposed virgin birth of the man Jesus, and that the man Jesus was some eternal God who became a man, rather than a man who was given divine glory by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as revealed in Acts 3: 13; and who is now incontestably divine and sits in the throne of our father, and invites all his brothers, who like himself, are able to win the victory over the ruler of this world to sit beside him, in the heavenly throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation, where they shall judge even the angels.
The Lord who filled the man Jesus with his spirit, was paid the majestic wage of thirty pieces of silver by the Jewish authorities.
Zechariah 11: 12-17’ I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they valued me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter at the house of the LORD. Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the family bond between Judah and Israel. Then the LORD said to me, "Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd. For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hooves. "Woe to the worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! May his arm be completely withered, his right eye totally blinded!"
Where do you suppose you would find the worthless shepherd who God raised up in the land after he had abandoned the Jews. The head of that organisation who claims to be the Shepherd of God’s people.
To be continued.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
Continued from previous post.
In reference to the reincarnation…..1 Corinthians 15: 35; But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they have?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor. 42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; etc.
Enoch the righteous, wrote that God created an eighth day also, that it should be the first after his works and it is a day eternal, with neither hours, days, weeks, months, or years, for all time shall be stuck together in one aeon.
After being taken to the throne of the MOST HIGH and ANOINTED as his heir and successor, Enoch was told to Sit and write all the souls of mankind, however many of them are born, and the places prepared for them to eternity; for all souls are prepared to Eternity, before the formation of the world, said the Lord.
Christ is the English term for the Greek (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one" It is a translation of the Hebrew (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah or Mashiach. The Hebrew word translated "anointed" is the verb form of the noun "Messiah."
All souls are prepared to eternity, even those that are cast into the lake of fire where the spirit is divided from the soul which will be given a new body and a new spirit, of course it could be that of a worn or a maggot, depending on the position prepared for that soul by the Anointed one.
But of course, all those who are obedient to the Roman mother church, who banned the books of Enoch from which Jesus and his apostles taught, reject He, who was anointed as the heir and successor to the throne of the Most High.
Deeje wrote……. You sound like you have been to the celestial supermarket to shop for your beliefs....but it means little if you are the only one with 'your' selected beliefs tucked into your shopping trolley.
The Anointed……. It is you sunshine, who prove to all, in your responses, just how ignorant you are to the truth as revealed in the Holy Scriptures.
Even though the scriptures clearly reveal that the saints whose graves were open when Jesus gave up his spirit, came out of those graves three days later and entered the city and revealed themselves to the people; You claim that is not necessarily true, denying the word of God.
You claimed that it was to the angels who sinned in the days of Noah to who Jesus preached while dead in the flesh but alive in spirit, whereas the scripture state that the dead to who Jesus preached the Good News, were those who had been judged in their PHYSICAL existence as all are judged etc.
It was Enoch, who at the age of 365, the number of days in a calendar year, was taken to the throne of the Most High in the creation. Genesis 5: 22-24. Where he was ANOINTED as the heir and successor [The Son] of the Most High in the creation, and translated Hebrews 11: 5; in order that he should never experience death.
Enoch was escorted to the tenth heaven where the archangel Michael led Enoch before the Lords face.
And I fell prone and bowed down to the Lord, and the Lord with his lips said to me: Have courage Enoch, do not fear, arise and stand before my face into all eternity.
And the archistratege. Or, "the commander of the armies of the nations, named Michael, lifted me up, and led me to before the Lord’s face. And the Lord said to his servants tempting them: Let Enoch stand before my face into eternity, and the glorious ones bowed down to the Lord, and said: Let Enoch go [Be released] according to your word.
And the Lord said to Michael: Go and take Enoch from out of his earthly garments, and anoint him with my sweet ointment, and put him into the garments of My glory. And Michael did thus, as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun’s ray, and I looked at myself, and I was like one of his glorious ones, or one of the seven highest angels.
365, is the number of days in a calendar year. The Lamb of God who takes on the sins of the world is to be a one year old unblemished Lamb. Enoch the anointed one, is the unblemished Lamb of God.
Sandalphon is an archangel in Jewish and Christian writings. Sandalphon figures prominently in the mystical literary traditions of Rabbinic Judaism and early Christianity, notably in the midrash, Talmud, and Kabbalah. Some of the earliest sources on Sandalphon refer to him as the prophet Elijah elevated to angelic status.
Other sources (mainly from the midrashic period) describe him as the "twin brother" of Metatron, whose human origin As Enoch was similar to the human origin of Sandalphon. Sandalphron and Metatron are post human angels, Metatron is the name that was given to Enoch after he had been translated from a body of corruptible matter into a glorious body of incorruptible light, and Sandalphron, who is erroneously thought by some to be Metatron"s twin, is in fact Elijah"s angelic name after he was carried up to stand before Enoch and was also transfigured.
Metatron is also mentioned in the Pseudepigrapha, most prominently in the Hebrew Book of Enoch (also called Third Enoch), in which his grand title, "The lesser YHVH" resurfaces. [The Heir and successor to JHWH] It is also said that Metatron, was the angel who guided Israel through the wilderness.
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But is there day and night in heaven or hell?...that was the question.
Since the righteous alone are promised everlasting life, wouldn't God need to grant everlasting life also to the wicked in order to punish them forever? You reckon that they are alive....the Bible says they are not.
He didn't. He preached to the wicked spirits in prison. Not spirits of the dead but the wicked spirits who in Noah's day caused widespread violence and immorality. The wicked angelic fathers of the Nephilim.
Jesus was in his tomb for the three days, just as he prophesied that he would be....just as Jonah was confined in the belly of the fish. He didn't go anywhere until he was resurrected.
The dead do not become disembodied spirits. The only ones who inhabit the spirit realm are spirit creatures who were created to live there...both good and wicked.
There is a big difference between the "unrighteous" and the "wicked". Jesus raises the righteous and the unrighteous out of the same place...their graves. The wicked will not be resurrected. Their death is permanent.
No one mentioned it apart from Matthew in passing. The "saints" were to be raised to heaven....not walking about on earth. Their resurrection is tied in with Jesus second coming.....so did it already take place back in the first century? Has the Kingdom already come...and we missed it?
I didn't claim it...the Bible says it. There is no mention of the dead. It was a judgment message for wicked spirits, not any good news for them.
Great response, Deeje.
The fact that death is the opposite of life, is made in the contrast given at @ Roman 6:23.
Plus, everlasting life is a "gift", not a punishment.....which indeed it would be, if suffering in fire is understood to be literal!