Quran Yes. Hadith No.

[Augustus]

Based on the evidence in the world, most people who study the Quran don't consciously know that they've acquired this mindset, it's tacit.

That isn't really what tacit knowledge is though. You seem to be talking about a subconscious attitude that develops via repeated exposure to an explicit message (is this correct?).

Tacit knowledge is the part of knowledge which is not easy to put into words even if you are aware of it and are trying to encode it. It develops as a result of experience in complex tasks/environments. For example, you can easily recognise your friend's voice, but you couldn't explain why you recognise it as it involves a range of subconscious processes and judgements. Or a craftsman can make an exact replica of a Stradivarius violin, yet it not sound the same as he lacks the tacit knowledge that Stradivarius possessed that differentiated his instruments from other near identical ones.

Anything that can be clearly expressed in a few words is not tacit knowledge even if it is held subconsciously.

Less sure about this, but AFAIK, perceptual learning also is not about a general preference for X over Y that may change suddenly based on exposure to new information, but a fundamental shift in the way you perceive part of your environment.

Learning from perception is different from perceptual learning. If someone has been brought up by a somewhat racist parent, exposed to countless racist messages and thus has a negative attitude towards minorities, this is often not going to be perceptual learning as it could, in theory, be undone by a single incident (let's say a black person saved their life) or at least a few incidents. Like how tacit knowledge can't be easily verbalised, perceptual learning can't easily be unlearned (except through repeated exposure to undo the neural programming)

On the other hand, a person who was subject to severe bullying and abuse by people of a particular ethnicity may develop an instinctive negative response to people of this ethnicity that cannot simply be undone as it has become a strongly learned response, which would be perceptual learning.

But through high repetition (which creates a perceptual learning environment), the person will gain the orientation to despise non-Muslims.

It's not really as simple as that either.

Repeated exposure to a message has a high correlation with recall, but not necessarily with attitude change. For example, if you get a fanatical Trump hater, merely exposing them to Trump messages is unlikely to change their opinion.

Attitude prior to exposure to a message plays a significant role in how you react to it. Exposure to messages that match your attitudes may indeed strengthen them. Exposure to messages on issues you lack an opinion on, particularly when you are not very knowledgeable about them so messages cannot be corrected or contextualised might relate to attitude change also (but not necessarily). On those that contradict prior attitudes they generally must contain a reason for you to doubt your original position and those which don't may even strengthen your initial perception.

 

[firedragon]

The pattern has to do with ALL of us, myself included.

Let's try a small experiment. In the first couple of Surah's I we find the following:

1:7 - ... not the way of those who earned your anger..
2:6 - ...those who disbelieve.. will disbelieve..
2:7 - Allah has set a seal in their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes their is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment.
2:8 - ... there are some hypocrites who say they believe.. but believe not
2:9 - they think to deceive Allah..
2:10 - In their hearts is a disease.. a painful torment is theirs because they lie
2:12 - they are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive not.
2:13 - ...they are fools, but they know not
2:14 - (again, they are liars)
2:15 - Allah mocks them.. they wander blindly
2:16 - they have purchased error for guidance..
2:17 - Allah took away their light
2:18 - They are deaf, dumb, and blind

And so on, and so on..

Who are the "they" the Quran is referring to? When the Quran criticizes the "they" throughout the book, who is it that's being criticized? Is it one group? Is it five different groups? Is it 10? could you list them? Even a partial list of groups would be okay for this discussion.

The "they" is mostly you, the reader.

 

[icehorse]

@Augustus - Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

That isn't really what tacit knowledge is though. You seem to be talking about a subconscious attitude that develops via repeated exposure to an explicit message (is this correct?).

Tacit knowledge can develop in a number of ways. It can develop consciously or subconsciously. Perceptual learning (a la Reber), is a mode of learning that's based on repetition. Sometimes of an explicit message, often not.

Less sure about this, but AFAIK, perceptual learning also is not about a general preference for X over Y that may change suddenly based on exposure to new information, but a fundamental shift in the way you perceive part of your environment.

I'm most familiar with PL used in situations in which the learner has an explicit intention to learn. It's often used to convey tacit knowledge (unspeakable) from a master to a beginner. For example, in WW II there were folks in England who could hear planes in the distance and "know" whether they were friendly planes or enemy planes. In order to spread this useful skill to others, a highly repetitive PL approach was used. I guess I would say it's more commonly about learning an assessment skill rather than developing a preference. But I think it could go either way.

Learning from perception is different from perceptual learning. If someone has been brought up by a somewhat racist parent, exposed to countless racist messages and thus has a negative attitude towards minorities, this is often not going to be perceptual learning as it could, in theory, be undone by a single incident (let's say a black person saved their life) or at least a few incidents. Like how tacit knowledge can't be easily verbalised, perceptual learning can't easily be unlearned (except through repeated exposure to undo the neural programming)

This - I think - gets to an important point (of I'm following you). The question of intent. PL is far more effective when it's used to teach the learner something they want to know. But we also know that coercive activities like indoctrination and brainwashing do work.

It's not really as simple as that either.

Repeated exposure to a message has a high correlation with recall, but not necessarily with attitude change. For example, if you get a fanatical Trump hater, merely exposing them to Trump messages is unlikely to change their opinion.

Attitude prior to exposure to a message plays a significant role in how you react to it. Exposure to messages that match your attitudes may indeed strengthen them. Exposure to messages on issues you lack an opinion on, particularly when you are not very knowledgeable about them so messages cannot be corrected or contextualised might relate to attitude change also (but not necessarily). On those that contradict prior attitudes they generally must contain a reason for you to doubt your original position and those which don't may even strengthen your initial perception.

Yes, we're largely agreed on the power of intention. But I wouldn't say it's black and white. Even someone who hates trump might - over time - begin to harbor a concern over "caravans of invaders".

In the case of scripture, indoctrination is a very common strategy used on children. In the case of children, they won't have much of an intention going in. They are easier to indoctrinate.

 

[icehorse]

The "they" is mostly you, the reader.

Ok, that's progress of a sort. So wouldn't it be fair to say the repeated message is something like:

"You the reader better become a Muslim or else..." ?

 

[Wasp]

Ok, that's progress of a sort. So wouldn't it be fair to say the repeated message is something like:

"You the reader better become a Muslim or else..." ?

No. But if it was, there would be no harm done as those who aren't Muslims don't believe it and those who are benefit from it. The Qur'an is not something that merely benefits the non-Muslims by potentially making them Muslims. It is for Muslims also.

 

[icehorse]

No. But if it was, there would be no harm done as those who aren't Muslims don't believe it and those who are benefit from it. The Qur'an is not something that merely benefits the non-Muslims by potentially making them Muslims. It is for Muslims also.

What I'm getting at here is that the Quran IS categorizing people into groups. I don't want to get hung up on debating terms. I'm asking for those of you who are defending the book to tell us what terms you think we should use for the categories described in the book.

Thanks,

 

[paarsurrey]

Yes i can always learn more. Maybe some who are Muslim would like to give me a website i could use to study the Quran better?

One may like to access the following website:
https://www.alislam.org
Regards

 

[Spirit of Light]

One may like to access the following website:
https://www.alislam.org
Regards

Thank you @paarsurrey I will take a look at the website

 

[Wasp]

What I'm getting at here is that the Quran IS categorizing people into groups. I don't want to get hung up on debating terms. I'm asking for those of you who are defending the book to tell us what terms you think we should use for the categories described in the book.

Thanks,

I thought one of my comments made it clear that usually there are many "categories" spoken of at the same time - farther, you could never place people within the "category" without analysing their individual situation and self. Since that isn't possible, there is no point in categorizing.

 

[Wasp]

Thank you @paarsurrey I will take a look at the website

One may like to access the following website:
https://www.alislam.org
Regards

It's probably worth mentioning that is an ahmadiyya site and strongly favors Shia views and opposes Sunni views. Imo, not in the style of a professional.

 

[icehorse]

I thought one of my comments made it clear that usually there are many "categories" spoken of at the same time - farther, you could never place people within the "category" without analysing their individual situation and self. Since that isn't possible, there is no point in categorizing.

I think that there is a bigger category that could include your list of categories.

 

[Spirit of Light]

It's probably worth mentioning that is an ahmadiyya site and strongly favors Shia views and opposes Sunni views. Imo, not in the style of a professional.

I like reading about Shia and Sunni Muslims and about the Quran and to me the website looked ok

 

[Wasp]

I think that there is a bigger category that could include your list of categories.

Human?

 

[icehorse]

Human?

Okay, maybe that's a little too big.

How about: "Those who don't believe the Quran" ?

If not, can you propose the bigger category?

 

[Wasp]

Okay, maybe that's a little too big.

How about: "Those who don't believe the Quran" ?

If not, can you propose the bigger category?

Those who might end up in hell. Which includes everyone.

 

[paarsurrey]

It's probably worth mentioning that is an ahmadiyya site and strongly favors Shia views and opposes Sunni views. Imo, not in the style of a professional.

What does one mean by Sunni "professional", please?
Regards

 

[Wasp]

What does one mean by Sunni "professional", please?
Regards

Any professional. Someone who writes in a professional tone.

 

[paarsurrey]

Any professional. Someone who writes in a professional tone.

Does Quran favor any such "professional" understanding, please?
If yes, then please quote from Quran to support one's point of view.

Regards

 

[Wasp]

Does Quran favor any such "professional" understanding, please?
If yes, then please quote from Quran to support one's point of view.

Regards

No.

 

[Firemorphic]

It's probably worth mentioning that is an ahmadiyya site and strongly favors Shia views and opposes Sunni views. Imo, not in the style of a professional.

Lmao, Ahmadiyya came out of Sunnism. They believe their founder fulfilled Sunni (not Shia) eschatology and their beliefs are rooted in Sunni tradition, even if they do differ on many areas with orthodox Sunnism.