Man made traditions from the Church or the Word of God - Who do you believe and follow?

[3rdAngel]

In Luke 4 jesus observes the traditional congregation of the Sabbath.
In Matthew 12 Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath.
The Biblical writer could neither agree nor disagree with a timetable construct of a later Roman era. You're familiar even, that August is after Emperor Augustus, AD 14.

Hi Mike, nice to see you and thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. I am not quite sure of your point here did you wish to expand on it a little further?

 

[3rdAngel]

I find since Pentecost, the 'Israel of God' is the Christian congregation - Romans 2:28-29
It is No longer a fleshly or a national Israel but a ' spiritual Israel ' as brought out by 1 Peter 2:9; 1 Peter 2:5
Spiritual as in meaning a nation that has No borders, No boundaries and can't be located on any map.
Christians are to fulfill the Law of Christ - Galatians 6:2
Jeremiah foretold this 'new covenant' at Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:6-13.
The priesthood now belongs to Christ - Hebrews 7:12
Thus, Christians are now to fullfill the Law of Christ - 1 Corinthians 9:21
This Law of Christ covers a Christian's life style or course of life - Romans 8:2; Romans 8:4
Jesus gave a NEW commandment to follow as found at John 13:34-35
We are now to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has.
In other words, we are now to love neighbor 'MORE' than self, more than the Golden Rule of the Mosaic Law.

Hi URAVIP2ME, nice to meet you. Nice to see someone else reading the bible for themselves in relation to who God's ISRAEL is according to the scriptures. I have not got time now but will respond a little latter on what it means to love. Do you think you can separate God's law (10 comandments) from Love when it is through love the God's law is fulfilled in us according to the new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12? Chat more soon so thanks for sharing.

blessings

 

[3rdAngel]

Christians are to fulfill the Law of Christ - Galatians 6:2
Jeremiah foretold this 'new covenant' at Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:6-13.
The priesthood now belongs to Christ - Hebrews 7:12
Thus, Christians are now to fullfill the Law of Christ - 1 Corinthians 9:21
This Law of Christ covers a Christian's life style or course of life - Romans 8:2; Romans 8:4
Jesus gave a NEW commandment to follow as found at John 13:34-35
We are now to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has.
In other words, we are now to love neighbor 'MORE' than self, more than the Golden Rule of the Mosaic Law.

JHi again URAVIP2ME. Actually you are right but also not right at the same time. LOVE is not separate from God's 10 Commandments it is the "EXPRESSION" God's 10 commandments, fulfilled by a new heart to LOVE *MATTHEW 22:36-40; ROMANS 13:8-10. It is the character of God. You cannot fulfill (do) God's law without love. This is the new covnenant promise as to why we need a new heart to be born again *JOHN 3:3-7 through the operation of God *COLOSSIAN 2:12 through faith in God's Word * EPHESIANS 2:8-9 that save us from our sins *HEBREWS 8:10-12; JOHN 8:31-36.

Let's look at the scriptures...

MATTHEW 22:36-40
[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37], Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38], This is the first and great commandment.
[39], And the second is like to it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself.
[40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

NOTE: Jesus when asked this question from the Lawyer is quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18. Finishes by saying that on the two great commandments of LOVE hang all the law and the prophets.

What does v40 mean?

LUKE 10:25-28
[25], And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tested him, saying, Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
[26], He said unto him, what is written in the law? how read you?
[27], And he [the Lawyer] answering said, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbour as yourself.
[28], And he said unto him, you have answered right: this do, and you shall live.

NOTE: The lawyer knew what it means to love God and love his neighbore. How? Notice the question that the lawyer starts os by asking Jesus; "WHAT SHALL I DO TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE?". Now notice that the very same question is asked again and look how Jesus answers...

MATTHEW 19:16-19
[16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF YOU WILL ENTER INTO LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.
[18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, YOU SHALL DO NO MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT LIE, [19], HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and you shall love your neighbour as yourself.
Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

NOTE: Notice in that the question from the rich young ruler is the very same question as asked by the lawyer "WHAT SHALL I DO TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE?" but both were answered by Jesus in a different way. When the Lawer asked the question he answered his own question by saying LOVE to GOD and LOVE to his neighbor (from Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Jesus said he answered correctly. When the rich yound ruler asked the same question Jesus answered by saying keep the 10 Commandments and starts out quoting them as his duty of LOVE to his neighbor.

Is this a contradiction of scripture? In no way the answer has already been given in MATTHEW 22:36-40. ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS (LOVE TO GOD and LOVE TO MAN) HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

When we LOVE GOD and our NEIGHBOUR it is expressed through our actions.

If we LOVE our neighbor...

* We will honor our parents,
* We will not kill them
* We will not commit adultery with thier spouse
* We will not steal from them
* We will not lie to them
* We will not covet what they own.

If we LOVE our God...

* We will not have other Gods
* We will not make idols and worship them
* We will not take his name [follow] him in vain
* We will remember his Sabbath and keep it holy.

ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS [OF LOVE] HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

PAUL understood what JESUS was talking about...

ROMANS 13:8-10
[8], Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law. [9], For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore, love is the fulfilling [DOING] of the law.

Notice what PAUL says here? LOVE is fulfilling [doing] God's Commandments. God's Commandments or duty towards your neighbor is summed up as you shall LOVE your neighbor as yourself v9. [On these two commandments hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets Matthew 22:40].

PAUL agrees with Jesus that if you LOVE you will fulfill God's LAW. What about JAMES?

JAMES 2:8-12
[8] If you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself [Sums up our duty of love in the 10 Commandments Romans 13:9] , you do well: [9], But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convicted of the law as transgressors. [10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11], For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law. [12], So speak, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

James is using the second great commandment of LOVE which hangs all the commandments of our duty of love to our neighbour and quotes the commandments showing our duty towards our neighbor. This is why Jesus says “On these two commandments hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets” Matthew 22:40. and again..

JOHN 14:15 [15], IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.

You cannot separate LOVE from God’s LAW. Love is the FULFILLING of it and is demonstrated by OBEDIENCE to Gods’ LAW as our duty of LOVE to God and man. [“On these two commandments [of LOVE] hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets]

...................

CONCLUSION: It is very clear that JESUS, PAUL and JAMES are all in agreement that the two GREAT COMMANDMENTS of LOVE that JESUS quoted from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 were used and known in the OLD Testament scripture to sum up our duty of LOVE to God and man in the 10 Commandments.... God's LAW (Ten commandments) is not separated from LOVE it demonstrates it. You cannot have LOVE without fulfilling God's Ten Commandments. [On these two Commandments of LOVE hang all the LAW and the prophets]. RIGHTESOUSNESS comes from LOVE because LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW and the very expression of what LOVE is *ROMANS 13:8-10. He that does not LOVE does not KNOW GOD for GOD IS LOVE * 1 JOHN 4:8. All those who are BORN AGAIN have a NEW HEART TO LOVE and FOLLOW GOD *1 JOHN 4:7. This is the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Those who are BORN AGAIN do not practice SIN (breaking God's Commandments) *1 JOHN 3:4-9. This is why JOHN finishes on this subject by saying; For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous *1 JOHN 5:3 and is why JESUS says IF you LOVE me KEEP my commandments *JOHN 14:15. UNLESS we are BORN AGAIN under the NEW COVENANT to LOVE we will not enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *JOHN 3:3-7. We need to be changed from the INSIDE OUT.

.............

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27). Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9). God knows many do so out of ignorance and is calling his people where ever they may be back to the pure Word of God to worship him in Spirit and in truth.

blessings

 

[metis]

MATTHEW 22:36-40
[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37], Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38], This is the first and great commandment.
[39], And the second is like to it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself.
[40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

Bingo! This is why all other teachings are more minor in comparison, thus relegated to "commentary" and/or "application", especially on these Two Commandments.

 

[sojourner]

Hi all,

The challenge I am putting up here in this OP is for anyone to show even one scripture that says God's 4th Commandment of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) which was spoken and written by God himself to his people, has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday (or the first day of the week) as a Holy day.

Can anyone please show me where in all the bible does is say (SOLA SCRIPTURA; Scripture only please)...

1. That God's 4th commandments 7th day Sabbath has been abolished?

2. That Jesus is a Sabbath?

3. The Sabbath (seventh day) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?

4. Where we are told to keep the first day of the week holy?

5. Where the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?

6. That says that Jesus ever kept the first day (Sunday)?

7. That tells us to keep the first day in honour of the resurrection of Christ?

8. Where the first day is ever given any sacred name?

9. That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?

10. From any apostolic writings that authorizes Sunday observance as the Sabbath of God?

11. Where we are told not to work on the first day of the week?

12. That says the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day?

13. That says the seventh day Sabbath is ABOLISHED?

14. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?

15. Where the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?

16. Where the first day of the week is ever called the Lord's Day?

17. That says that the first day of the week was ever sanctified and hallowed as a day of rest?

18. That says that the Father or the Son (Jesus) rested on the first day of the week?

19. That says that Jesus, Paul or any other of the apostles taught anyone to observe the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

20. That calls the seventh day the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?

21. Telling man to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?

22. Authorizing anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?

23. Showing any of the apostles keeping the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

24. Authorizing someone to set aside the fourth Commandment and observe any other day of the week?

25. Where any apostle taught us to keep the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

26. Declaring that the seventh day is no longer the Eternal Sabbath day?

27. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Sabbath or holy day?

...................

Something to think about here because we are all accountable to God come judgment day where we will all be judged by the Word of God (John 12:47-48).

God's Word makes it very clear that if we follow the teachings of men over the Word of God we are not following God...

MATTHEW 15:3-9 [3],
[3], But he answered and said unto them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
[4], For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
[5], But you say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift devoted to God, whatsoever you might have received from me;
[6], And honors not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God void by your tradition.
[7], You hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
[8], These people draw near unto me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9], But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

If we are KNOWINGLY breaking ANY of God's commandments we are not worshipping God.

Look forward to your thoughts...

1) You haven’t remotely proven that “God wrote” the 10 commandments. Therefore, we shall assume that, like all other texts, they were written by people.
2) Sola scriptura is a heresy that need not be observed, just because you say so.
3) Since the 10 commandments are only incumbent on observant Jews, Gentiles need not adhere to them. Paul says so in the Bible.

However, if an observant Jew wants to be a Christian, that person would have to observe Shabbat. There is no universal doctrine with regard to church attendance. I believe even the RCC says that one should attend at least once during Easter.

You’re making a complete mountain out of nothing more than a zit.

 

[3rdAngel]

Bingo! This is why all other teachings are more minor in comparison, thus relegated to "commentary" and/or "application", especially on these Two Commandments.

Absolutely, something we can agree on for a change.

 

[3rdAngel]

1) You haven’t remotely proven that “God wrote” the 10 commandments. Therefore, we shall assume that, like all other texts, they were written by people.

Depends if you believe the scripures or not as shown in EXODUS 32:16; EXODUS 20:1-17. I do. You on the other hand have not proven your claims that God did not write the 10 commandments now have you?

2) Sola scriptura is a heresy that need not be observed, just because you say so.

Nonsense, this is just another unsupported claim you cannot prove.

3) Since the 10 commandments are only incumbent on observant Jews, Gentiles need not adhere to them. Paul says so in the Bible. However, if an observant Jew wants to be a Christian, that person would have to observe Shabbat. There is no universal doctrine with regard to church attendance. I believe even the RCC says that one should attend at least once during Easter.

As posted earlier in relation to God's 4th commandment. It was given to mankind before there was sin, before there was law to mankind as a memorial of creation by the creator *GENESIS 2:1-3; MARK 2:27-28. After the fall and the sin of mankind God gave his laws to those who believed and followed his Word first to Abraham who was not a Jew and then the name Israel was given to Jacob when he wrestled with God in prayer for deliverance from his brother Essua as a sign that he was an over comer with God and man. Jacob had 12 sons who had sons that made up the 12 tribes of Israel who were Israel in the flesh of the old covenant. Since the name of ISRAEL was only ever given by God to those who believed and followed God's Word, ISRAEL in the new covenant is no longer ISRAEL in the flesh. ISRAEL in the flesh denied the Messiah and the scriptures that pointed to JESUS as the promised deliverer of his people.

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

According to the new covenant promise God's ISRAEL are all those who believe and follow God's Word. *JOHN 10:25-27. PAUL demonstrates that gentile believers are now grafted into God's ISRAEL *ROMANS 11:13-27 and today if we are not a part of God's ISRAEL we have no part in the new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12.

You’re making a complete mountain out of nothing more than a zit.

As shown above the scriptures disagree with you.

 

[sojourner]

Depends if you believe the scripures or not as shown in EXODUS 32:16; EXODUS 20:1-17. I do. You on the other hand have not proven your claims that God did not write the 10 commandments now have you?

You have yet to prove that a God wrote them. You may believe God did so, but that’s not the same as proving it — even if it’s written in the Bible. The Bible does not constitute empirical proof.

 

[sojourner]

Nonsense, this is just another unsupported claim you cannot prove.

Sola scriptura - Wikipedia
The above link shows that sola scriptura only came into being 1500 years after the formation of Xy, and further shows that at least two Apostolic authorities reject it.

As posted earlier in relation to God's 4th commandment. It was given to mankind before there was sin, before there was law to mankind as a memorial of creation by the creator *GENESIS 2:1-3; MARK 2:27-28. After the fall and the sin of mankind God gave his laws to those who believed and followed his Word first to Abraham who was not a Jew and then the name Israel was given to Jacob when he wrestled with God in prayer for deliverance from his brother Essua as a sign that he was an over comer with God and man. Jacob had 12 sons who had sons that made up the 12 tribes of Israel who were Israel in the flesh of the old covenant. Since the name of ISRAEL was only ever given by God to those who believed and followed God's Word, ISRAEL in the new covenant is no longer ISRAEL in the flesh. ISRAEL in the flesh denied the Messiah and the scriptures that pointed to JESUS as the promised deliverer of his people.

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

According to the new covenant promise God's ISRAEL are all those who believe and follow God's Word. *JOHN 10:25-27. PAUL demonstrates that gentile believers are now grafted into God's ISRAEL *ROMANS 11:13-27 and today if we are not a part of God's ISRAEL we have no part in the new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12.

None of this refutes that Gentiles aren’t accountable to the Law.

As shown above the scriptures disagree with you

You’ve shown nothing.

 

[3rdAngel]

Sola scriptura - Wikipedia
The above link shows that sola scriptura only came into being 1500 years after the formation of Xy, and further shows that at least two Apostolic authorities reject it.

Nonsense! It has always been since the beginning of time as shown through the scriptures...

DEUTERONOMY 8:3 [3], And he humbled you, and suffered you to hunger, and fed you with manna, which you knew not, neither did your fathers know; that he might make you know that man does not live by bread only, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD does man live.

Yep JESUS says it here in the temptation in the wilderness...

MATTHEW 4:4 [4], But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

All you have provided is a teaching from the words of men from the Roman Catholic Church that is not biblical

None of this refutes that Gentiles aren’t accountable to the Law. You’ve shown nothing.

Sure it does it is scripture. Here let me post it again perhaps you did not catch it the first time.
As posted earlier in relation to God's 4th commandment. It was given to mankind before there was sin, before there was law to mankind as a memorial of creation by the creator *GENESIS 2:1-3; MARK 2:27-28. After the fall and the sin of mankind God gave his laws to those who believed and followed his Word first to Abraham who was not a Jew and then the name Israel was given to Jacob when he wrestled with God in prayer for deliverance from his brother Essua as a sign that he was an over comer with God and man. Jacob had 12 sons who had sons that made up the 12 tribes of Israel who were Israel in the flesh of the old covenant. Since the name of ISRAEL was only ever given by God to those who believed and followed God's Word, ISRAEL in the new covenant is no longer ISRAEL in the flesh. ISRAEL in the flesh denied the Messiah and the scriptures that pointed to JESUS as the promised deliverer of his people.

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

According to the new covenant promise God's ISRAEL are all those who believe and follow God's Word. *JOHN 10:25-27. PAUL demonstrates that gentile believers are now grafted into God's ISRAEL *ROMANS 11:13-27 and today if we are not a part of God's ISRAEL we have no part in the new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12.

Looks like God's Word disagrees with you.

Hope this helps

 

[sojourner]

All you have provided is a teaching from the Roman Catholic Church that is not biblical.

No, I provided a common understanding of a heretical doctrine. The Bible never mentions “Bible only.” Jesus gave examples is extra-textual teaching. There was no Bible as we know it for the first 400 years of the church. Sola scriptura is wrong.

Sure it does it is scripture.

So when Paul and the Jerusalem Apostles agreed that Gentiles did not have to be circumcised, that’s not in the Bible?

 

[3rdAngel]

No, I provided a common understanding of a heretical doctrine. The Bible never mentions “Bible only.” Jesus gave examples is extra-textual teaching. There was no Bible as we know it for the first 400 years of the church. Sola scriptura is wrong.

Well that is not true my friend. As posted earlier all you provided was man made teachings from the Roman Catholic Church that is not supported by the majority of Christianity. Also, you were shown from the origins of the Word of God *DEUTERONOMY 8:3 and the words of JESUS MATTHEW 4:4 from the old testament that your source was false. According to JESUS and the scriptures there is nothing wrong with man made traditions in and of themselves except if they lead us to break the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:3-9.

This is exactly what Sunday worship does. It is a man made teaching and tradition that was given to all Christianity by the Roman Catholic Church that is not biblical that has lead many to break God's 4th commandment despite there not being one scripture in all the bible that says God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

I guess you choose to believe the teachings of men over the Word of God and you are entitled to do so and it seems that is who you choose to believe. According to the scriptures there is consequences for this *HEBREWS 10:26-39.

For me however, I choose to believe and follow what God says and like Peter says...

ACTS 5:29 [29]...We ought to obey God rather than men.

So when Paul and the Jerusalem Apostles agreed that Gentiles did not have to be circumcised, that’s not in the Bible?

Many of the old testament laws from the book of the covenant *EXODUS 24:7 are shadow laws fulfilled in the new unlike God's eternal law (10 Commandments) that give us the knowledge of good and evil; Sin and righteousness *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4.

CIRCUMCISION is one of the shadow laws from the book of the covenant not the 10 commandments that define what sin which foreshadows a new heart by faith in God's Word and the new covenant promise to love *EZEKIAL 11:19; JEREMIAH 31:31-34; HEBREWS 8:10-12. This is why it is written...

ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29], But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

This is why Paul says elsewhere...

1 CORINTHIANS 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Hope this helps

 

[sojourner]

Nonsense! As posted earlier all you provided was the teachings from men from the Roman Catholic Church that is not supported by the majority of Christianity

The Roman Catholic Church IS the majority of Christianity.

Also, you were shown from the origins of the Word of God as the most important source from the scriptures from the old testament that your source was false. I guess to believe the teachings of men over the Word of God. That is who you choose to believe. I choose to believe what God says

You’ve shown no “origins” of the “word of God.” You’ve told me what you believe, but, as I’ve pointed out before, that’s not either proof or evidence of anything other than your own self-deception.
I believe what responsible scholarship says about the texts. Since we don’t know what “God says” about the texts, to believe that “God says” anything is pure conjecture. I’d prefer to assert what can be known, rather than assert that unfounded belief is “the way it is.” Faith is for matters other than textual criticism.

Many of the old testament laws from the book of the covenant *EXODUS 24:7 are shadow laws fulfilled in the new unlike God's eternal law (10 Commandments) that give us the knowledge of good and evil; Sin and righteousness *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4.

CIRCUMCISION is one of the shadow laws from the book of the covenant not the 10 commandments that define what sin which foreshadows a new heart by faith in God's Word and the new covenant promise to love

So, where is the term “shadow law” used in the Bible? Where does the Bible ever say that “circumcision is a shadow law?”

In fact, circumcision is a sign commanded of God that one has accepted the covenantal laws of Judaism. No circumcision, no covenant. Since it was determined that Gentiles need not be circumcised, that implies that we do not need to observe Judaic law. That means that we don’t have to observe Shabbat.

sounds like you’re trying to justify something that the court has declared moot, using false criteria based on faulty premises.

 

[3rdAngel]

The Roman Catholic Church IS the majority of Christianity.

Not really. It is one of 40,000 + variations of Christianity. Which is a fulfillment of prophecy *MATTHEW 24:24

You’ve shown no “origins” of the “word of God.” You’ve told me what you believe, but, as I’ve pointed out before, that’s not either proof or evidence of anything other than your own self-deception.

Nonsense. Your were provided scriptural proof on both the role of the Word of God to the believer and the role of tradition over the Word of God from both the old and new testament scriptures. That disagree with a man made statement you provided. All you have is a man made statement that denies what the bible teaches. I believe the scriptures teach that the deception lies in those who choose to believe and follow men over the word of God (supporting scriptures; DEUTERONOMY 8:3; MATTHEW 4:4; MATTHEW 15:3-9; ACTS 5:29; MATTHEW 15:3-9; HEBREWS 10:26-39; JOHN 10:26-27).

You were also given the example of Sunday worship being a man made teaching and tradition given to Christianity by the Roman Catholic Church that has lead many to break God's 4th commandment that directly corresponds with the very words that JESUS warns his followers agains in MATTHEW 15:3-9.

Why do you think the RCC wrote that article? It is because they put the teachings and traditions of men over the Word of God. This teaching will only lead you away from God not to God. For me however, I choose to believe and follow what God says and like Peter says...

ACTS 5:29 [29]...We ought to obey God rather than men.

Another way to say it is if God asks us to do something through his Word and man says no you should not do this.... We ought to obey what God says rather than man. This is biblical. What you have provided is not biblical but teaches agains the bible

So, where is the term “shadow law” used in the Bible? Where does the Bible ever say that “circumcision is a shadow law?” In fact, circumcision is a sign commanded of God that one has accepted the covenantal laws of Judaism. No circumcision, no covenant. Since it was determined that Gentiles need not be circumcised, that implies that we do not need to observe Judaic law.

Nonsense. Let's look at the scriptures. Most of the old covenant laws (including circumcision) from the Mosaic book of the covenant *EXODUS 24:7 for remission of sin are shadow laws pointed to JESUS as the coming Messiah and the new covenant of God's LAW being written on the heart through faith in God's Word by the operation of God *JEREMIAH 31:31-34; COLOSSIANS 2:12. The shadow laws of the old covenant include the laws for remission of sin such as animal sacrifices for sin offerings; the Sanctuary ceremionial laws, the Levitical Priesthood which are all fulfilled in Christ.

You can read about the shadow laws in more detail in HEBREWS 7; HEBERWS 8; HEBREWS 9 and HEBREWS 10 and specifically here...

HEBREWS 8:1-5
[1], Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
[2], A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. [3], For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: why it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
[4], For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
[5], WHO SERVE TO THE EXAMPLE AND SHADOW OF HEAVENLY THINGS, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, said he, that you make all things according to the pattern showed to you in the mount.

Many laws from the MOSAIC book of the old covenant according to the scriptures are shadows of heavenly things in the new covenant. Here it is talking about the earthly Sanctuary being a copy of the heavenly and the work of Christ as our true high Priest.

HEBREWS 9:1-12
[1], THEN TRULY THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES OF DIVINE SERVICE, AND A WORLDLY SANCTUARY.
[2], For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the show bread; which is called the sanctuary.
[3], And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
[4], Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
[5], And over it the cherubim of glory shadowing the mercy seat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
[6], Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
[7], But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
[8], The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
[9], WHICH WAS A FIGURE FOR THE TIME THEN PRESENT, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
[10], Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
[11], But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
[12], NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD HE ENTERED IN ONCE INTO THE HOLY PLACE, HAVING OBTAINED ETERNAL REDEMPTION FOR US.

This is speaking specifically of the SHADOWS LAWS FOR REMISSION OF SIN FROM THE MOSIAC BOOK OF THE OLD COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7 here…

HEBREWS 10:1-7
[1], FOR THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, and not the very image of the things, can never WITH THOSE SACRIFICES which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[3], But in THOSE SACRIFICES there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4], FOR IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.
[5], Why when he comes into the world, he said, Sacrifice and offering you would not, but a body have you prepared me:
[6], In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you have had no pleasure.
[7], THEN SAID I, SEE, I COME IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME, TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.

Your welcome

That means that we don’t have to observe Shabbat.

Nonsense! Do you remember me asking you some time back somewhere do you know the difference between the law of God written on stone (10 commandments) *EXODUS 20:1-17 and the Mosiac book of the law *EXODUS 24:7? I asked you this question because they are different laws. God's Law (10 Commandments) are moral laws of our duty of love to both God and our fellow man which have it's origin in *LEVITICUS 19:18; DEUTERONOMY 6:5 and spoken by JESUS in MATTHEW 22:36-40 where JESUS states on these two great commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets and not one of them is to pass away *MATTHEW 5:17-20.

God's Law (10 commandments) in the old and new covenants give us the knowledge of Good and Evil; Sin and Righteousness *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4 and has JAMES says if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11.

God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is if it is knowingly and willfully broken *ACTS 17:30-31; JAMES 4:17; HEBREWS 10:26-31 and JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4.

As shown above through the scriptures your mixing up the "SHADOW LAWS" from the Mosaic book of the old covneant *EXODUS 24:7 for remission of sins that point to JESUS and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant with God's eternal law that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 3:20.

Hope this helps

 

[sojourner]

Not really. It is one of 40,000 + variations of Christianity

By all accounts, the RCC has about 1.3 billion members. The combined total of all the rest is about 1.3 billion. Plus, when you consider that Anglicans and EO also do not subscribe to the heresy, that number jumps to well over half of all Christians. The Christians who don’t buy the heresy are the preponderance of Xy.

Nonsense. Your were provided scriptural proof on both the role of the Word of God to the believer

No, I was provided with your belief, which doesn’t cut the mustard where proof is concerned.

That disagree with a man made statement you provided

this is a non-argument, since you have failed to prove that the Bible is not man made.

You were also given the example of Sunday worship being a man made teaching and tradition given to Christianity by the Roman Catholic Church

The example was false. The Bible itself recounts examples of Sunday worship. The Gospels predates the RCC.

Why do you think the RCC wrote that article?

They didn’t write the article.

Nonsense. Let's look at the scriptures

The term “Shadow law” never appears. The word “shadow” appears, but it doesn’t mean what you say it means. This is another cheap attempt to twist the texts on your part.

Nonsense! Do you remember me asking you some time back somewhere do you know the difference between the law of God written on stone (10 commandments) *EXODUS 20:1-17 and the Mosiac book of the law *EXODUS 24:7?

None of this diatribe is worth responding to. It was trash the first time around and repeating it doesn’t change anything. Your scholarship is abysmal.

 

[3rdAngel]

By all accounts, the RCC has about 1.3 billion members. The combined total of all the rest is about 1.3 billion. Plus, when you consider that Anglicans and EO also do not subscribe to the heresy, that number jumps to well over half of all Christians. The Christians who don’t buy the heresy are the preponderance of Xy. No, I was provided with your belief, which doesn’t cut the mustard where proof is concerned.

The heresy is one that is not biblical or does not believe God's Word, which is what you are promoting trying to claim that tradition supersedes the Word of God when it is God's Word alone that says we only have salvation by believing and following what God's Word says. Don't take my word for it as the very evidence for this statement is in the very word of God you deny (see JOHN 3:15-21; JOHN 10:26-27; 1 TIMOTHY 4:10; HEBREWS 11:6; 1 PETER 1:8-12; JOHN 20:31; MATTHEW 21:28-32; ROMANS 10:9-10; REVELATION 12:17; REVERLATION 14:12; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; HEBREWS 10:26-39; MATTHEW 7:22-26.

this is a non-argument, since you have failed to prove that the Bible is not man made.

Not really. Your claim is that your man made statements supersedes the word of God yet the scriptures say the very opposite as Peter says "We ought to obey God rather tham man" *ACTS 5:29 and the words of JESUS who say if we follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God we are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9. As to the bible being man made? The scriptures say that...

2 TIMOTHY 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

and again...

2 PETER 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The example was false. The Bible itself recounts examples of Sunday worship. The Gospels predates the RCC.

If you disagree prove your claims? So fay all I hear are your words denying the scriptures provided that disagree with you. Where is the scripture that says God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

They didn’t write the article.

The teaching is a Catholic teaching. If that is not the source then what is?

The term “Shadow law” never appears. The word “shadow” appears, but it doesn’t mean what you say it means. This is another cheap attempt to twist the texts on your part.

No need to comment much on this one. I will just repost the some of the scriptures from Hebrews again that shows your not telling the truth here...

HEBREWS 10:1-7
[1], FOR THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, and not the very image of the things, can never WITH THOSE SACRIFICES which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[3], But in THOSE SACRIFICES there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4], FOR IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.
[5], Why when he comes into the world, he said, Sacrifice and offering you would not, but a body have you prepared me:
[6], In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you have had no pleasure.
[7], THEN SAID I, SEE, I COME IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME, TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.

Seems God's Word disagrees with you my friend.

None of this diatribe is worth responding to. It was trash the first time around and repeating it doesn’t change anything. Your scholarship is abysmal.

I guess it is hard for you to kick against the pricks when you cannot prove your claims.

 

[sojourner]

The heresy is one that is not biblical or does not believe God's Word, which is what you are promoting trying to claim that tradition supersedes the Word of God when it is God's Word alone that says we only have salvation by believing and following what God's Word says

Run-on sentences are a sure sign of not paying attention. Sola Scriptura is a heresy.

Not really. Your claim is that your man made statements supersedes the word of God

My claim is that you have yet to prove that the Bible is God’s words. So far you’ve backed away from proving that claim. Smart boy. Because you know it ain’t true.

Where is the scripture that says God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

This doesn’t address the point to which you’re responding. You’re confused. Again.

The teaching is a Catholic teaching

No. The teaching is a church teaching. Tradition has always been part of doctrine formulation. Tradition gave us the NT texts — they’re not “from the Bible,” themselves.

No need to comment much on this one. I will just repost the some of the scriptures from Hebrews again that shows your not telling the truth here

Translation: “I got nothing, so I’ll just yell the same thing over again louder.”

I guess it is hard for you to kick against the pricks when you cannot prove your claims

You said “pricks,” not me...

 

[3rdAngel]

Run-on sentences are a sure sign of not paying attention. Sola Scriptura is a heresy.

Your only repeating yourself without addressing any of the content in the post shared with you that shows why you are in error. The only heresy is the one that is not biblical or does not believe God's Word, which is what you are promoting trying to claim that tradition supersedes the Word of God when it is God's Word alone that says we only have salvation by believing and following what God's Word says

My claim is that you have yet to prove that the Bible is God’s words. So far you’ve backed away from proving that claim. Smart boy. Because you know it ain’t true.

I would say that is not the problem it is simply one that you would refuse to believe anyway. This is despite over 8000 prophecies being in the bible many being a direct fulfillment of the scriptures verified in History and many yet to be fulfilled. Well you know the saying, you can bring a horse to water. I can ask the same question as you. How can you prove the scriptures are not God's Word - You can't.

This doesn’t address the point to which you’re responding. You’re confused. Again.

Sure it does. Seems your not following the conversation again. Here let me post it for you (again). I posted an example of MATTHEW 15:3-9 on man made traditions that break God's commandments and said afterwards..

3rdAngel said: ↑ You were also given the example of Sunday worship being a man made teaching and tradition given to Christianity by the Roman Catholic Church

You responded with...

sojourner said: ↑ The example was false. The Bible itself recounts examples of Sunday worship. The Gospels predates the RCC.

I posted...

3rdAngel said: ↑ Where is the scripture that says God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

Your response...

This doesn’t address the point to which you’re responding. You’re confused. Again.

This only proves the confusion is your side

No. The teaching is a church teaching. Tradition has always been part of doctrine formulation. Tradition gave us the NT texts — they’re not “from the Bible,” themselves.

That is what I said the teaching is a Catholic teaching it is not biblical. The NT scriptures are based on the OT scriptures. Not traditions but scripture - God's Word.

Translation: “I got nothing, so I’ll just yell the same thing over again louder.”

I would say you have nothing so your trying to make a distraction to the fact that you claimed that there is no scripture in the bible in relation to the shadow laws so I posted them from HEBREWS 10:1-7 showing your claim was a false one and now your not able to respond to this section of the post so sadly your trying to make claims that are unfounded and not true. Well at least the scriptures were posted you claimed did not exist for all to see even if you did not want to see them.

Your welcome

 

[sojourner]

Your only repeating yourself without addressing any of the content in the post shared with you that shows why you are in error

The content doesn’t show that I’m in error. It shows that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

I would say that is not the problem it is simply one that you would refuse to believe anyway. This is despite over 8000 prophecies being in the bible many being a direct fulfillment of the scriptures verified in History and many yet to be fulfilled

Prophecies aren’t proof.

How can you prove the scriptures are not God's Word - You can't.

Sure I can. Because we have known authors, such a Paul, who signed his letters. Those are Paul’s words, not Gods. God didn’t write them. Paul did.

Sure it does. Seems your not following the conversation again

This only proves the confusion is your side

No. I said that the Bible recounts instances of Sunday worship. You replied with “show me where the 4th commandment is abolished,” which was never my argument. You. Are. Confused. I’m not looking up your posts for you again. You’re welcome.

That is what I said the teaching is a Catholic teaching it is not biblical

No, it’s not a Catholic teaching. At all. It was a church teaching — that is, an apostolic teaching — you know: Apostolic — the Bible says that we’re to continue in the Apostles’ teaching? This is an apostolic teaching of an apostolic church.

The NT scriptures are based on the OT scriptures. Not traditions but scripture

Paul’ letters aren’t based on OT texts. Neither are the gospels. They are traditions unto themselves.

I would say you have nothing so your trying to make a distraction to the fact that you claimed that there is no scripture in the bible in relation to the shadow laws

I said that there is no text that specifically says “shadow law.” Please try to keep up.

 

[3rdAngel]

The content doesn’t show that I’m in error. It shows that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Sure it does although you do not believe it as you believe man made traditions supersedes the Word of God. According to the scriptures Ancient ISRAEL in the old covenant made the same mistake and God rejected them.

Prophecies aren’t proof.

Sure they are man does not have the natural capacity to predict the future. It is a supernaturtal event witnessed by history.

Sure I can. Because we have known authors, such a Paul, who signed his letters. Those are Paul’s words, not Gods. God didn’t write them. Paul did.

Your ignoring the content of what the scriptures teach as shown earlier that disagree with you. Actually they are from Timothy and Peter...

2 TIMOTHY 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

2 PETER 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

No. I said that the Bible recounts instances of Sunday worship. You replied with “show me where the 4th commandment is abolished,” which was never my argument. You. Are. Confused. I’m not looking up your posts for you again. You’re welcome.

What the bible actually says is that the early Christians worshipped God everyday ACTS 2:46-47. This however does not make Sunday a holy day or any of the other days the worshipped God on. Only one day is a Holy day commanded by God and that is the Sabbath day *EXODUS 20:8-11.

No, it’s not a Catholic teaching. At all. It was a church teaching — that is, an apostolic teaching — you know: Apostolic — the Bible says that we’re to continue in the Apostles’ teaching? This is an apostolic teaching of an apostolic church.

Nonsense! Prove to me that man made traditions supersedes scripture. I have already shown you from the scriptures that your claims here are not biblical *MATTHEW 15:3-9; ACTS 5:29; ROMANS 3:4; HEBREWS 10:26-27. 1 JOHN 3:4; JAMES 4:17.

Paul’ letters aren’t based on OT texts. Neither are the gospels. They are traditions unto themselves.

Sure they are where do you think he is getting his information from. In the days of JESUS and all the Apostles their was no new testament scriptures their bible was the old testament. Together both the old testament and the new testament scriptures make up the Word of God the point to JESUS and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant.

I said that there is no text that specifically says “shadow law.” Please try to keep up.

I see so your triyng to argue the order of the words now gives a different meaning are you? What would that meaning be? Let's see.. HEBREWS 10:1, For the law having a shadow of good things to come. Can you please explain to me how HEBREWS 10:1 does not mean shadow laws?

Hope this helps