Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Trailblazer]

Of course it does? I have the following choices A, B, or C.

You are claiming a deity knows which of those I will choose before I make the choice, thus I cannot choose either of the others.

Why couldn't you have chosen one of the others?
Had you chosen one of the others, God would have known you would choose one of the others.

 

[Trailblazer]

It doesn't matter, if a deity existed and knew what I was going to do before I did it, then I axiomatically cannot do otherwise than what it knows will happen.

God's knowledge has nothing to do with what you choose to do. The all-knowing God simply knows what you will choose to do.
You can do anything you choose to do and whatever you choose will be what God knew you would choose.

 

[Trailblazer]

We need some way to sort valid prophecies from the garbage ones, right?

You mean we need a way to tell the specific prophecies from those that are non-specific and could thus mean more than one thing.

 

[Tiberius]

You mean we need a way to tell the specific prophecies from those that are non-specific and could thus mean more than one thing.

If it's non-specific, how do you know that it actually refers to what you think it refers to? That's the problem with things that are vague and open to interpretation.

 

[Tiberius]

Why couldn't you have chosen one of the others?
Had you chosen one of the others, God would have known you would choose one of the others.

Still ends up with you "choosing" the one that the deity knows you will. So we've still got the issue that we can only do what the deity knows we will do, and that means it isn't a choice.

 

[Trailblazer]

If it's non-specific, how do you know that it actually refers to what you think it refers to? That's the problem with things that are vague and open to interpretation.

The only way you would know what it was referring to is if it had already been fulfilled by someone...
With most prophesies, it's easy to look back when you know what you're looking for to tell that it was fulfilled, but impossible to guess what it is referring to beforehand. It helps to look at the context, but even then one cannot know who “he” refers to unless one is looking at history and can see how it was fulfilled by a person in history.

 

[Spirit of Light]

So you are saying that God is a fairytale?

Not to me, but i can't speak for what others should believe

 

[Trailblazer]

Still ends up with you "choosing" the one that the deity knows you will.

It does end up that way because what the deity knows what you will do = what you will do since the deity cannot be wrong.

So we've still got the issue that we can only do what the deity knows we will do, and that means it isn't a choice.

We WILL end up doing only do what the deity knows we will do because what what we will do = what the deity knew we would do,
but BEFORE we made a choice we could have made another choice and that choice would have been = to what the deity knew we would do.

 

[Truthseeker]

I said, "Ah, so it's a METAPHOR. The gore it speaks of isn't literal gore, it's a figure of speech."

Now that you mention it, that isn't clear you meant gore on the "banks of the Rhine". That's what I understood later. Your continually arrogantly rubbing it in has made me realize in the end that you weren't clear.

 

[rational experiences]

Dude, if you want to have a conversation to me, speak in understandable English.

I'm not going to respond to this gibberish.

God owns naked bodies not clothes.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Still ends up with you "choosing" the one that the deity knows you will. So we've still got the issue that we can only do what the deity knows we will do, and that means it isn't a choice.

This sort of reasoning only works if we assume there are no limits to human understanding. Which is rather an arrogant assumption to make, don’t you think?

No matter how good the finest human minds may be at playing chess, for example, the game is played on a two dimensional board. But we do not live in a two, or three, or even four dimensional universe. So your declaration of check mate is meaningless, because even if God does play chess, He is not constrained by your limitations; the question is, can you transcend the limitations you have imposed on your self?

 

[Sheldon]

There were other choices you could have made BEFORE you made your choice.
Had you made a different choice that would have been the choice the deity would have known you would ultimately make.

It doesn't matter if the final choice I make was always known, then I had no other choices.

 

[Sheldon]

God's knowledge does not determine the choice we will make. We determine the choice we will make by choosing to make it. God knows what we will choose because God is all-knowing.

There is no choice if a deity knows the final choice we will make, that is axiomatic, how can you not see that, is it deliberate?

 

[Sheldon]

Tiberius said: ↑
Still ends up with you "choosing" the one that the deity knows you will. So we've still got the issue that we can only do what the deity knows we will do, and that means it isn't a choice.

This sort of reasoning only works if we assume there are no limits to human understanding. Which is rather an arrogant assumption to make, don’t you think?

That's nonsense sorry, Tiberius is using sound reasoning, which is all any of us can utilise. If a deity knew beforehand what choices we will make then we would axiomatically have no choices.

even if God does play chess, He is not constrained by your limitations; the question is, can you transcend the limitations you have imposed on your self?

Hilarious, you accuse Tiberius of arrogance for using human reason, they in the same post profess to know what an omniscient deity knows and thinks, and all without the pretence of any objective evidence. Now that is arrogance.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
Of course it does? I have the following choices A, B, or C.

You are claiming a deity knows which of those I will choose before I make the choice, thus I cannot choose either of the others.

Why couldn't you have chosen one of the others?

Dear oh dear...I'm starting to think this is a windup.

 

[Sheldon]

God's knowledge has nothing to do with what you choose to do. The all-knowing God simply knows what you will choose to do.

Dear oh dear...If it knows what I will do before I do it, then I have no choice but to do it, how can this simple fact be so hard for anyone to grasp?

 

[Sheldon]

You mean we need a way to tell the specific prophecies from those that are non-specific and could thus mean more than one thing.

Well even then you it would be irrational to assume anything about them, an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. The same for miracles.

 

[Sheldon]

With most prophesies, it's easy to look back when you know what you're looking for to tell that it was fulfilled, but impossible to guess what it is referring to beforehand. It helps to look at the context, but even then one cannot know who “he” refers to unless one is looking at history and can see how it was fulfilled by a person in history.

Firstly this is never the case, they're nearly always vague claims that are likely to happen, secondly we have the word of the author anyone claimed anything, often an unknown author, and lastly even were a very specific guess made by someone that we could be very sure of, and it came true, so what? All we would have is something we could not explain. To claim otherwise is an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

Why would a deity that could do literally anything waste it's time on such nonsense when it could make every man woman and child know it existed unequivocally in an instant. So called prophecies are just wishful thinking by people who want to see divine agency.

 

[Tiberius]

The only way you would know what it was referring to is if it had already been fulfilled by someone...
With most prophesies, it's easy to look back when you know what you're looking for to tell that it was fulfilled, but impossible to guess what it is referring to beforehand. It helps to look at the context, but even then one cannot know who “he” refers to unless one is looking at history and can see how it was fulfilled by a person in history.

Not quite.

If it's non specific, all you need to do is wait until some event happens that you can interpret the prophecy as referring to.

 

[Tiberius]

Not to me, but i can't speak for what others should believe

So you believe things to be real without having proof?