Bible Prophecy as Evidence of a bible writers trustworthiness

[Bree]

Irrelevant.

and there is a answer. Its irrelevant what 'method' anyone uses for anything. You dont need a reason to believe Mohammad lived in the 7th century and I dont need a reason to belive that Isiah lived in the 7th century BCE.

 

[Bree]

That's the claim, not evidence, so what objective evidence is there to support that claim?

Also assuming some unknown author made a claim that could be sufficiently supported any objective evidence, and assuming some outcome matched it beyond any reasonable doubt, how does that evidence any deity? You keep avoiding this question, and it has not gone unnoticed.

prophecy is evidence of diety because no man can know the future. Humans are limited in their foreknowledge.

It would be impossible for you know what will befall a small town in the middle of nowhere in 100 years from now.

 

[Bree]

Lesson: don’t sit on a ledge while listening to Paul because you’ll be bored to death

Yeah i think anyone giving a lecture on any subject after 10pm at night will do that to me

 

[Redemptionsong]

Great, now can you demonstrate anything approaching objective evidence?



That is a pretty obvious no true Scotsman fallacy.



Well it would wouldn't it, dear oh dear.



All you have done is repeat the claim, please demonstrate some objective evidence for a fulfilled prophesy. Also would you explain to me how a hypothetical accurate prediction of a future event, is evidence for any deity?



The Harry Potter novels have steam trains and schools in them, this does not make wizardry real.



I am dubious, especially since all you have done is make a bare unevidenced claim. Also the narrative can contain things that are true, but this doesn't necessarily evidence any deity. The Spider Man film is set in New York, it is a real city, so the narrative has a fact in it, that doesn't make Spider Man real.



Trekkies exist, and have a point of origin in time, this does not make Star Trek real.



Coherent to whom?

The Bible is a composite of books written over 1500 years. The historical content provides a skeleton upon which the wisdom and truth of God's word rests.

You have, so far, shown no willingness to accept that the Bible contains any accurate records of historical events. If l cannot convince you of the historical evidence, then its hardly likely that you'll be convinced by arguments that rely on experience and faith.

So, as already requested, tell me what you accept as true, and we'll have a foundation on which to build a dialogue.

This does, of course, require that you study the Bible.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I know.

I'll take this as poetic license.


If by "accidental" you mean natural and without the influence of an intelligent agent, I have no idea.

What I do know is that whether the universe is natural or an artifact, that no one has presented any evidence that they know or are capable of knowing that there is a creator; let alone that they have any clue as to its (or their) purpose. IOW, the purpose and hope that people see in the universe is of their own creation, whether there is a creator, many creators, or none.

All this demonstrates is that you haven't read the Bible.

IMO, God has spelled out his plan for the salvation of a lost world, but it appears that many people are not ready to accept the Saviour.

 

[Redemptionsong]

The fact that the Quran and the Bible contain differences, you must understand that the Quran doesn't contain contradictions whereas the Bible does. The fact that the Quran is endorsed by God himself, the Bible does not have that claim. The fact that the Quran is proven over 1400 years still the same, the Bible doesn't even know who wrote some of the books and they attribute that to God.

You said, "Possibly" even that you cannot be sure of. There is no excuse as to change words around. This is what is said in the Quran...

“Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands” [al-Baqarah 2:79]
Allah warns those who distort the Book and change laws, those who betrayed the trust of knowledge and religion, with loss, punishment and doom on the Day of Resurrection. They distorted the Book by adding and subtracting, and they said that this was from Allah, lying and fabricating.

I beg to differ, if they are there in the Bible, and it is clearly shown as a contradiction, no matter what you decide, it is still a contradiction. You can give your OPINIONS but they will not take away the contradictions.

In Islam, mankind commit sins but we do not believe that men is born IN sin. Would be horrible to punish an innocent person. Jesus didn't say it nor did God tell his messengers to preach it. Even in the Bible you can disprove it. You don't need a human sacrifice to die for you...who are you to say you deserve something like that? God is above such things. He can just say BE and created any in your place.

You have not yet provided a contradiction from the Bible.

Instead, you place your faith in the words of one man, Muhammad, who revealed the words of the Qur'an over 23 years.

There are no other prophets witnessing to Muhammad being a true prophet, yet you claim the forty or more writers of the Bible must all have it wrong, and that the Qur'an should be seen as authoratative over all that was written in the Bible over 1500 years.

I suggest that you take time to listen to the discussions between Christian Prince and Muslim callers on YouTube. He knows the Qur'an and Hadith well, and is able to demonstrate the errors of the Qur'an in Arabic.

 

[MyM]

You have not yet provided a contradiction from the Bible.

Instead, you place your faith in the words of one man, Muhammad, who revealed the words of the Qur'an over 23 years.

There are no other prophets witnessing to Muhammad being a true prophet, yet you claim the forty or more writers of the Bible must all have it wrong, and that the Qur'an should be seen as authoratative over all that was written in the Bible over 1500 years.

I suggest that you take time to listen to the discussions between Christian Prince and Muslim callers on YouTube. He knows the Qur'an and Hadith well, and is able to demonstrate the errors of the Qur'an in Arabic.

Again, you do not know Greek. His name was there.

I was once a christian, I know all the ins and outs of it, meaning what they taught, believed etc.

The contradictions in the bible was there in the ones I gave you, but if you want more, sure I will provide

* Genesis 1 :24-27 God created animals before humankind.
* Genesis 2 : 7&19 God created humankind before animals.
* Genesis 1 : 31 God admired what He created.
* Genesis 6 : 5-6 God doesn't admire what he created and he get sad ..
* Genesis 16 : 15 ,21 : 1-3 Ibrahim has two children Ishmael and Isaac.
* Hebrews 11 : 17 Ibrahim has one Child Issac.
* Matthew 10 : 34 Jesus came to bring sword not peace.
* Luke 12 : 49-53 Jesus came to bring fire and division.
* John 16 : 33 Jesus came to bring Peace .
* While he said in Luke 19 : 27.But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.
* Matthew 5: 44 & Luke 6 : 27-28 :
* 44.But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you
* 27-28 .But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

there are more but these are just a few.


Yes, Mohammad pbuh received the revelation over 23 years. Was the entire Quran. Nothing wrong with that. It was preserved. A messenger of God at 40. Doesn't mean that it has to come down all at once. He lived through persecution, trials, suffering and the Quran was brought down as a mercy and to help deal as well in those difficult times. It was a guidance to them as well. But the Quran wasn't from Mohammad and Mohammad never said it was from himself.

Word of God will never have contradiction in his book therefore bible is not the word of God.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The promise that Jesus made to his followers was that they would receive the Holy Spirit.

Didn’t we get that when God breathed into Adam?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

As an indication,why not?

Contemporaries would be more aware of the facts, since historical povs over unpopular topics tend to be altered as time progresses.

Contemporaries & their writings are important.

Only 80 to 90 years ago, the Holocaust occurred. But there are some already, who deny it even happened.

Doesn’t the Bible say people didn’t believe the apostles?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

You dont agree that a moon landing can be faked? Or you dont like my comparison?

We can bounce lasers off the mirrors left there, unless you think the moon just has random mirrors for no reason.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

You are no longer theist.

Lol. I literally worship God and left my idolatrous days behind, and I am not a theist?

 

[ppp]

All this demonstrates is that you haven't read the Bible

I think that it is hilarious how many people think that because you don't agree with them that you haven't read their literature.

IMO, God has spelled out his plan for the salvation of a lost world, but it appears that many people are not ready to accept the Saviour.

That is your opinion. And you have a right to your opinion. I don't think your opinion is justified, but I don't deny your right to have it.

 

[firedragon]

and there is a answer. Its irrelevant what 'method' anyone uses for anything. You dont need a reason to believe Mohammad lived in the 7th century and I dont need a reason to belive that Isiah lived in the 7th century BCE.

ITs irrelevant, when its irrelevant. Read the post you are responding to and you will see.

Cheers.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

So..in Exodus 7, God is working against Himself? That makes no sense.

But the Bible does tell us of an angel who rebelled against God, whom Jesus referred to as the “Ruler of this world.” John 12:31; see Luke 4:5-6

Him being the source of power behind those Egyptian priests, makes better sense.

it also helps us to reason on why things like magic, astrology, divination and things like these, were so heavily condemned in the Mosaic Law (Deuteronomy 18:10-12) ….. Jehovah God’s enemy was & still is the source backing these activities.

You would think God would strip a rebel of his powers.

 

[Sheldon]

Nice try

“Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction”
an-Nisa’ 4:82

“Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an, or are there locks upon [their] hearts?”
Muhammad 47:24


you can continue to say what you wish...if you are truthful, make a chapter like the Quran, I dare you...as a matter of fact, God challenges you.

I don't believe in any deity, and the contradictions are listed on that website. Of course you dispute them, just as Christians here did when you offered the same claim about the bible. IF the Quran or Bible were really the infallible word of a perfect deity, then there would likely only be one religion, and Muslims the world over would not expend so much time and energy and laws trying to suppress any criticism of it texts.

 

[Sheldon]

Sure I did, just not to your satisfaction. Which doesn’t bother me, just to prove that, let me know what proof you would accept exactly?

Sheldon said: ↑
you still have not explained how a prophesy would represent evidence for any deity?

You have offered no answer to this question, you just quoted the bible at me.

 

[CG Didymus]

There have been many so called prophets and 'holy men' who claim to have been the mouthpiece of God. We have many historical religious leaders and those who have created entire new branches of christiantiy. We've seen new religions spring up all claiming divine authorship.

So this is to look specifically at how fulfilled bible prophecy gives us confidence and trust that the bible is a source that is truly from God.

An outstanding prophecy is about the destruction of the ancient city of Babylon.
The prophets Jeremiah, & Isaiah wrote about its coming destruction hundreds of years before it happened.
Jeremiah wrote in 625bce

Jeremiah 50
1 The word that Jehovah spoke concerning Babylon,+ concerning the land of the Chal·deʹans, through Jeremiah the prophet:...3. For a nation has come against her from the north.+
38 There is a devastation on her waters, and they will be dried up.+....She will never again be inhabited,
Nor will she be a place of residence throughout all generations.”+
40 ... “no one will dwell there, and no man will settle there.+

Isaiah actually named the ruler who would be the one to destroy Babylon 200 years before the event.

Isaiah 44:24 This is what Jehovah says,...25 I am frustrating the signs of the empty talkers,*
...26 The One making the word of his servant come true
And completely fulfilling the predictions of his messengers;+The One saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be inhabited,’+And of the cities of Judah, ‘They will be rebuilt,+And I will restore her ruins’;+
27 The One saying to the deep waters, ‘Be evaporated,And I will dry up all your rivers’;+
28 The One saying of Cyrus,+ ‘He is my shepherd,And he will completely carry out all my will’;+
The One saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be rebuilt,’And of the temple, ‘Your foundation will be laid.’”+

After the destruction of Babylon the jews were released and were able to return to their homeland, Jerusalem, which lay in ruins. They rebuilt the city and temple as foretold.


The destruction of Babylon is explained by the historical facts (see link)
Babylon - World History Encyclopedia

"The Persian Conquest & Babylon's Decline
The Neo-Babylonian Empire continued after the death of Nebuchadnezzar II and Babylon continued to play an important role in the region under the rule of Nabonidus and his successor Belshazzar (featured in the biblical Book of Daniel). In 539 BCE the empire fell to the Persians under Cyrus the Great at the Battle of Opis. Babylon's walls were impregnable and so the Persians cleverly devised a plan whereby they diverted the course of the Euphrates River so that it fell to a manageable depth.

UNDER PERSIAN RULE, BABYLON FLOURISHED AS A CENTER OF ART & EDUCATION.
While the residents of the city were distracted by one of their great religious feast days, the Persian army waded the river and marched under the walls of Babylon unnoticed. It was claimed the city was taken without a fight although documents of the time indicate that repairs had to be made to the walls and some sections of the city and so perhaps the action was not as effortless as the Persian account maintained."


And thousands of years later the ancient city of Babylon has never been inhabited, it has never prospered and it remains a heap of ruins today.
This is just 1 example of bible prophecy that can build confidence in the bible as Gods Word.

I don't know if this has already been talked about. Like with the last thread I posted in, this thread is already so long that I'll never read everything that has been said. However, some things called prophecies could have been written after the event had already taken place. Like Jesus predicting his death and resurrection was written down after his death and resurrection. Then there is cherry-picking a verse and making it into a prophecy without including the context. An example of this is the virgin birth. Only Isaiah 7:14 is used and the rest of the things about this child are ignored. Another problem like with Daniel and Revelation is the symbolic language can be made to fit several interpretations.

 

[Sheldon]

So, yes, since it’s the Bible’s words that are in dispute....the Bible defines what is acceptable behavior for Christians — to love one another (John 13:34-35), even to love their enemy (Matthew 5:44) — and what is not acceptable behavior. - James 4:4; 1 John 2:15.
The evidence is clear...

Hardly.

Since it’s inception, the majority of Christendom has failed where it really matters; they’ve joined the world in its conflicts & have been exposed for their hypocrisy.

This is a no true Scotsman fallacy.

Sheldon said: ↑
While you're here, I did ask why you believe a fulfilled prophesy represents any evidence for any deity?

Your other questions -- those 3 you posted earlier in post #100 — all referred to “the prediction”, or “the event.” As if.the Bible only had one. But the Bible contains many prophecies. And the vast majority have come true.....but there are still some being fulfilled globally, in our day.

The number are not really material, just why you think a fulfilled prediction, or prophesy, would be evidence for any deity?

A very good point you raised was, ‘Why is the prediction not clear?’ Well, the Bible was written to be deeply studied. There are accurate answers, but you have to dig for them.

That is a subjective claim, and of course Occam's razor suggests another simpler reason. However even were the prediction unequivocal and occurred exactly as described, and we all agreed it was an extraordinary occurrence, how does this evidence any deity?

I mean, even in Genesis 1, at the very beginning, the Bible’s not clear even as to the Creative Days! It makes it seem like they’re 24 hours, but then Jehovah God tells Adam, ‘Dont eat from the tree, for in the day you do, you’ll die.’ Adam died centuries later.
And God’s use of poetic language in His Word, makes it difficult & easy to twist.

Sorry but these just seem like rationalisations, and the idea a deity with limitless knowledge to create a message and limitless power to communicate it, can't get any closer to the 13.4 billion year age of the universe than 7 days just seems like a preposterous claim to me. If you bend facts to fit beliefs the belief will never be challenged, one should bend beliefs to fit facts, not the other way around.

Jesus himself said that for some people, the meaning would be ‘hidden.’ Only his Father, Jehovah, could reveal its meaning (Luke 10:21)

That's a bare claim, the bible contains the claim, no objective evidence supports this claim. We cannot know with any accuracy what Jesus may have said, if he existed.

The Bible itself said it is hard to understand....we need Jehovah’s — Jesus’ Father’s — help. If it was intended to be clear cut, there’d be no need.

Another claim, and this hardly has any relevance to evidences any deity. So we are back where we started, with the claim for a prophesy, and the claim it was fulfilled, neither supported by any objective evidence, and of course the claim these require divine agency or intervention.

(BTW, Nostradamus made a few seemingly fulfilled predictions, how did he do that?

Did he? I am not aware of any objective evidence to support this assertion, though I have encountered some wild claims.

I’ve got a POV on that which only about 8 million others share....IOW, quite a few but not the majority. I’ll be glad to share it with you, if you’d like.

Can you support it with any objective evidence?

On a related topic: being an atheist, how do you explain the many members on here who’ve had and continue to have two-way conversations with their ‘spirit guides’ or their invisible god entities? Are they all ‘faking’ it? Or are these people all delusional to you?

I don't need to offer alternative explanations to bare claims, this is called an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. The epistemological burden of proof fa;;s on the person making the claim.

Do you think a highly respected and rational-thinker like Sir Winston Churchill was delusional? Lincoln's ghost - Wikipedia)

That's an appeal to authority fallacy, and it is axiomatic that any human being is capable of delusion, especially an egomaniac like Churchill.

 

[Sheldon]

prophecy is evidence of diety because no man can know the future.

That's a circular reasoning fallacy, you have assumed your conclusion in your premise. I'll give you a clue, Predicting an outcome is not evidence one knows the future, as the daily lottery wins across the globe amply demonstrate.

Humans are limited in their foreknowledge. It would be impossible for you know what will befall a small town in the middle of nowhere in 100 years from now.

Assuming you can demonstrate objective evidence for such a claim coming true, which has yet to be demonstrated, and that we cannot reasonably explain, you would still just have an event we cannot explain. Making unevidenced assumptions based on not having contrary evidence or explanation, is called an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. It is an irrational conclusion or claim by definition.

 

[Sheldon]

The Bible is a composite of books written over 1500 years. The historical content provides a skeleton upon which the wisdom and truth of God's word rests.

I am an atheist, so obviously I am not simply going to accept your bare assertion for this.

You have, so far, shown no willingness to accept that the Bible contains any accurate records of historical events.

That is not true, I just don't accept that because the Spider Man film has a real city called New York in it, means Spider Man is real.

If l cannot convince you of the historical evidence, then its hardly likely that you'll be convinced by arguments that rely on experience and faith.

Even if you convince me of an historical event, I would be swayed by claims of subjective experience or faith, why would I.

So, as already requested, tell me what you accept as true, and we'll have a foundation on which to build a dialogue.

You want me to give you the evidence for your own belief, even though I don't share that belief? that's just bizarre. I tend to disbelieve claims that either entirely or insufficiently supported by objective evidence.