Bible Prophecy as Evidence of a bible writers trustworthiness

[Redemptionsong]

Meaningful to whom? I don't have to "give you anything" this is a debate forum, this thread is predicated on a claim, as of course are biblical prophesies, 3 claims in fact as I earlier indicated. I challenged that claim for something beyond bare assertion, or approaching objective evidence. So far I have had a bible quote making a claim. The relevance to prophesy of any biblical claims or their historical accuracy, is for you to establish.

As yet beyond argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacies, no one has offered any rational reason that (claims) for fulfilled prophesy, evidence any deity. Not being able to explain something is not evidence.

It's quite clear that you don't have anything to offer.

The Bible offers us many passages of scripture that point to future times, and future fulfilment. Each prophecy, on its own, is like a jigsaw piece, and requires placing to produce a meaningful picture. One or two pieces placed together give an impression, but the picture is still unclear. When 50 pieces all fall into place, one realises that this is not just a random collection pressed together. Only the Spirit of God is capable of foreseeing these events.

Look carefully at all the evidence for Jesus as the 'suffering servant' of scripture, and you will see that no one else could possible fit the bill.

Prophecies of the Suffering Servant

1. Genesis 3:15 > Galatians 4:4; 1 John 3:8. The seed of the woman.

2. Genesis 12:3 > Matthew 1:1; Acts 3:25; 18:18; 22:18; Galatians 3:16. The seed of Abraham.

3. Genesis 17:19; 21:12 > Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34; Hebrews 11:17-19. The seed of Isaac.

4. Genesis 28:14; Numbers 24:17,19 > Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34; Revelation 22:16. The star out of Jacob who will have dominion.

5. Genesis 49:10 > Matthew 1:2-3; Luke 3:33; Hebrews 7:14. A descendant of Judah.

6. 2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 9:6 (7); Jeremiah 23:5 > Matthew 1:1,6; Acts 11:23; Romans 1:4. A descendant of David and heir to his throne.

7. Micah 5:1 (2) > John 11, 14; 8:58; Ephesians 1:3-14; Colossians1:15-19; Revelation 5:11. The Messiah’s eternal existence.

8. Psalm 2:7; Proverbs 30:4 > Matthew 3:17; Luke 1:32. The Messiah is the Son of God.

9. Isaiah 9:5-6 (6-7); Jeremiah 23:5-6 > Romans 10:9; Philippians 2:9-11. The Messiah bears God’s own name.

10. Daniel 9:24-26 > Matthew 2:1, 16,19; Luke 3:1,23. Coming 483 years after the rebuilding of the wall in Jerusalem.

11. Micah 5:1(2) > Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7. Messiah will be born in Bethlehem, Judea.

13. Psalm 72:10-11 > Matthew 2:1-11. Adored by great persons.

14. Isaiah 40: 3-5; Malachi 3:1 > Matthew 3:1-3; Luke 1:17; 3:2-6. Announced by prophet.

15. Isaiah 11:2; 61:1; Psalm 45:8 (7) > Matthew 3:16; John 3:34; Acts 10:38. Anointed with the Spirit of God.

16. Deuteronomy 18:15,18 > Acts 3:20-22. A prophet like Moses.

17. Isaiah 61:1-2 > Luke 4:18-19. Proclaims liberty and the acceptable year of the Lord.

18. Isaiah 35:5-6; 42:18 > Matthew 11:5 and throughout the Gospels. Ministry of healing.

19. Isaiah 8:23 – 9:1 (9:1-2) > Matthew 4:12-16. A ministry in Galilee.

20. Isaiah 40:11; 42:3 > Matthew 12:15,20; Hebrews 4:15. Be tender and compassionate.

21. Isaiah 42:2 > Matthew 12:15-16,19. Be meek and unostentatious.

22. Isaiah 53:9 > 1 Peter 2:22. Be sinless and without guile.

23. Isaiah 53:12; Psalm 69:10 > Romans 15:13. Bear the reproaches due to others.

24. Psalm 110:4 > Hebrews 5:5-6. Be a priest.

25. Zechariah 9:9 > Matthew 21:1-11; Mark 11:1-11. Enter Jerusalem on the foal of an ***.

26. Haggai 2:7-9; Malachi 3:1 > Matthew 21:12-24; Luke 2:27-38, 45-50: John 2:13-22. Enter the Temple with authority.

27. Isaiah 49:7; Psalm 69:5 (4) > John 7:48; 15:24-25. Be hated without cause.

28. Isaiah 53:2; 63:3; Psalm 69:9 (8) > Mark 6:3: Luke 9:58; John1:11, 7:3-5. Rejected by his own people.

29. Psalm 118:22 > Matthew 21:42; John 7:48. Rejected by the Jewish leadership.

30. Psalm 2:1-2 > Acts 4:27. Plotted against by both Jews and Gentiles.

31. Psalm 41:9; 55:13-15 (12-14) >Matthew 26:21-25, 47-50; John 13:18-21; Acts 1:16-18. Betrayed by a friend.

32. Zechariah 11:12 > Matthew 26:15. Sold for 30 pieces of silver.

33. Zechariah 11:13 > Matthew 27:7. Have his price given for a potter’s field.

34. Zechariah 13:7 > Matthew 26:31,56. Forsaken by his disciples.

35. Micah 4:14 (5:1) > Matthew 27:30. Struck on the cheek.

36. Isaiah 50:6 > Matthew 26:67; 27:30. Spat on.

37. Psalm 22:8-9 (7-8) > Matthew 27:31, 39-44, 67-68. Mocked.

38. Isaiah 50:6 > Matthew 26:67; 27:26,30. Beaten.

39. Psalm 22:17; Zechariah 12:10 (16) > Matthew 27:35; Luke 24:39; John 19:18, 34-37; 20:35; Revelation 1:7. Crucifixion.

40. Psalm 22:16 (15) > John 19:28. Thirsty during crucifixion.

41. Psalm 69:22 (21) > Matthew 27:34. Given vinegar to quench thirst.

42. Exodus 12:46; Psalm 34:21 (20) >John 19:33-36. Executed without a bone broken.

43. Isaiah 53:12 > Matthew 27:38. Considered a transgressor.

44. Daniel 9:24-26 > Matthew 2:1; Luke 3:1,23. ‘Cut off, but not for himself’.

45. Isaiah 53:5-7, 12 > Mark 10:45; John 1:29; 3:16; Acts 8:30-35. Atone for the sins of mankind.

46. Isaiah 53:9 > Matthew 27:57-60. Buried with the rich when dead.

47. Isaiah 53:9-10; Psalm 2:7; 16:10 > Matthew 28:1-20; Acts 2:23-36; 13:33-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-6. Raised from the dead.

48. Psalm 16:11; 68:19 (18); 110:1 > Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9-11; 7:55; Hebrews 1:3. Ascend to the right hand of God.

49. Zechariah 6:13 > Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25-8:2. Exercise his priestly office in heaven.

50. Isaiah 28:16; Psalm 118:22-23 > Matthew 21:42; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:5-7. The cornerstone of God’s spiritual temple.

51. Isaiah 11:10; 42:1 > Acts 10:45. Sought after by Gentiles as well as Jews.

52. Isaiah 11:10; 42:1-4; 49:1-2 > Matthew 12:21; Romans 15:10. Accepted by the Gentiles.

This is called 'evidence'. It's an offering to someone who has nothing to give.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Are you going to believe my answer no matter what it is, or is this a totally false question? Are you capable of believing that someone can read your sacred text, understand it, and honestly not believe it?

I can understand it when a person presents alternative interpretations, or rejects passages that do not match their life experience (such as miracles); but I cannot accept the idea that a person 'does not believe the Bible'. The Bible contains a huge amount of information and wisdom. I want to know which bits you do not believe, and what has led you to your conclusion.

 

[MyM]

It's quite clear that you don't have anything to offer.

The Bible offers us many passages of scripture that point to future times, and future fulfilment. Each prophecy, on its own, is like a jigsaw piece, and requires placing to produce a meaningful picture. One or two pieces placed together give an impression, but the picture is still unclear. When 50 pieces all fall into place, one realises that this is not just a random collection pressed together. Only the Spirit of God is capable of foreseeing these events.

Look carefully at all the evidence for Jesus as the 'suffering servant' of scripture, and you will see that no one else could possible fit the bill.

Prophecies of the Suffering Servant

1. Genesis 3:15 > Galatians 4:4; 1 John 3:8. The seed of the woman.

2. Genesis 12:3 > Matthew 1:1; Acts 3:25; 18:18; 22:18; Galatians 3:16. The seed of Abraham.

3. Genesis 17:19; 21:12 > Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34; Hebrews 11:17-19. The seed of Isaac.

4. Genesis 28:14; Numbers 24:17,19 > Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34; Revelation 22:16. The star out of Jacob who will have dominion.

5. Genesis 49:10 > Matthew 1:2-3; Luke 3:33; Hebrews 7:14. A descendant of Judah.

6. 2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 9:6 (7); Jeremiah 23:5 > Matthew 1:1,6; Acts 11:23; Romans 1:4. A descendant of David and heir to his throne.

7. Micah 5:1 (2) > John 11, 14; 8:58; Ephesians 1:3-14; Colossians1:15-19; Revelation 5:11. The Messiah’s eternal existence.

8. Psalm 2:7; Proverbs 30:4 > Matthew 3:17; Luke 1:32. The Messiah is the Son of God.

9. Isaiah 9:5-6 (6-7); Jeremiah 23:5-6 > Romans 10:9; Philippians 2:9-11. The Messiah bears God’s own name.

10. Daniel 9:24-26 > Matthew 2:1, 16,19; Luke 3:1,23. Coming 483 years after the rebuilding of the wall in Jerusalem.

11. Micah 5:1(2) > Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7. Messiah will be born in Bethlehem, Judea.

13. Psalm 72:10-11 > Matthew 2:1-11. Adored by great persons.

14. Isaiah 40: 3-5; Malachi 3:1 > Matthew 3:1-3; Luke 1:17; 3:2-6. Announced by prophet.

15. Isaiah 11:2; 61:1; Psalm 45:8 (7) > Matthew 3:16; John 3:34; Acts 10:38. Anointed with the Spirit of God.

16. Deuteronomy 18:15,18 > Acts 3:20-22. A prophet like Moses.

17. Isaiah 61:1-2 > Luke 4:18-19. Proclaims liberty and the acceptable year of the Lord.

18. Isaiah 35:5-6; 42:18 > Matthew 11:5 and throughout the Gospels. Ministry of healing.

19. Isaiah 8:23 – 9:1 (9:1-2) > Matthew 4:12-16. A ministry in Galilee.

20. Isaiah 40:11; 42:3 > Matthew 12:15,20; Hebrews 4:15. Be tender and compassionate.

21. Isaiah 42:2 > Matthew 12:15-16,19. Be meek and unostentatious.

22. Isaiah 53:9 > 1 Peter 2:22. Be sinless and without guile.

23. Isaiah 53:12; Psalm 69:10 > Romans 15:13. Bear the reproaches due to others.

24. Psalm 110:4 > Hebrews 5:5-6. Be a priest.

25. Zechariah 9:9 > Matthew 21:1-11; Mark 11:1-11. Enter Jerusalem on the foal of an ***.

26. Haggai 2:7-9; Malachi 3:1 > Matthew 21:12-24; Luke 2:27-38, 45-50: John 2:13-22. Enter the Temple with authority.

27. Isaiah 49:7; Psalm 69:5 (4) > John 7:48; 15:24-25. Be hated without cause.

28. Isaiah 53:2; 63:3; Psalm 69:9 (8) > Mark 6:3: Luke 9:58; John1:11, 7:3-5. Rejected by his own people.

29. Psalm 118:22 > Matthew 21:42; John 7:48. Rejected by the Jewish leadership.

30. Psalm 2:1-2 > Acts 4:27. Plotted against by both Jews and Gentiles.

31. Psalm 41:9; 55:13-15 (12-14) >Matthew 26:21-25, 47-50; John 13:18-21; Acts 1:16-18. Betrayed by a friend.

32. Zechariah 11:12 > Matthew 26:15. Sold for 30 pieces of silver.

33. Zechariah 11:13 > Matthew 27:7. Have his price given for a potter’s field.

34. Zechariah 13:7 > Matthew 26:31,56. Forsaken by his disciples.

35. Micah 4:14 (5:1) > Matthew 27:30. Struck on the cheek.

36. Isaiah 50:6 > Matthew 26:67; 27:30. Spat on.

37. Psalm 22:8-9 (7-8) > Matthew 27:31, 39-44, 67-68. Mocked.

38. Isaiah 50:6 > Matthew 26:67; 27:26,30. Beaten.

39. Psalm 22:17; Zechariah 12:10 (16) > Matthew 27:35; Luke 24:39; John 19:18, 34-37; 20:35; Revelation 1:7. Crucifixion.

40. Psalm 22:16 (15) > John 19:28. Thirsty during crucifixion.

41. Psalm 69:22 (21) > Matthew 27:34. Given vinegar to quench thirst.

42. Exodus 12:46; Psalm 34:21 (20) >John 19:33-36. Executed without a bone broken.

43. Isaiah 53:12 > Matthew 27:38. Considered a transgressor.

44. Daniel 9:24-26 > Matthew 2:1; Luke 3:1,23. ‘Cut off, but not for himself’.

45. Isaiah 53:5-7, 12 > Mark 10:45; John 1:29; 3:16; Acts 8:30-35. Atone for the sins of mankind.

46. Isaiah 53:9 > Matthew 27:57-60. Buried with the rich when dead.

47. Isaiah 53:9-10; Psalm 2:7; 16:10 > Matthew 28:1-20; Acts 2:23-36; 13:33-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-6. Raised from the dead.

48. Psalm 16:11; 68:19 (18); 110:1 > Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9-11; 7:55; Hebrews 1:3. Ascend to the right hand of God.

49. Zechariah 6:13 > Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25-8:2. Exercise his priestly office in heaven.

50. Isaiah 28:16; Psalm 118:22-23 > Matthew 21:42; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:5-7. The cornerstone of God’s spiritual temple.

51. Isaiah 11:10; 42:1 > Acts 10:45. Sought after by Gentiles as well as Jews.

52. Isaiah 11:10; 42:1-4; 49:1-2 > Matthew 12:21; Romans 15:10. Accepted by the Gentiles.

This is called 'evidence'. It's an offering to someone who has nothing to give.

Ya know, being pregnant in Islam is a blessing, not a curse. Even if she were to die in labor, she is considered a martyr. In Islam, the more pain one has, the more his sins are erased. This is a mercy from Allah. You may see it as something horrible, but a mu'min (practicing believer) takes Allah's words and Mohammad's sunnah very dearly and close to his/her heart. Allah has given us many ways to ask for forgiveness and has given us many ways of him relieving our pain and suffering being it mentally or physically. Allah is the cure.

 

[MyM]

I can understand it when a person presents alternative interpretations, or rejects passages that do not match their life experience (such as miracles); but I cannot accept the idea that a person 'does not believe the Bible'. The Bible contains a huge amount of information and wisdom. I want to know which bits you do not believe, and what has led you to your conclusion.

How about the ones where Jesus is saying something and yet the preachers preach something else?

 

[Redemptionsong]

I think you are in denial. lol

ok here's one for ya

The sign of Jonah.
"AN EVIL AND ADULTEROUS GENERATION SEEKETH AFTER A SIGN; AND THERE SHALL NO SIGN (no miracle) BE GIVEN TO IT, BUT THE SIGN (miracle) OF THE PROPHET JONAS: FOR AS JONAS WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE WHALE'S BELLY; SO SHALL THE SON OF MAN BE THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH." (Matthew 12:39-40)

How many days and nights was Jesus in the belly of the earth? 2days, 1 night. ....


anyways, you have clear and PRECISE contradictions but you refuse to acknowledge them. I understand, I was the same way...big time.

Mohammad pbuh was indeed the last messenger of Allah. He even had a neighbor that was a Jew and things were fine

So, because I saw and asked, ...yes, here it comes...I knew the words were coming..."It comes as no surprise to me that you have given up your faith in Jesus Christ. Your teachers clearly didn't give you much in the way of scriptural understanding!" This is what everyone says when they think they are in the right. I can't tell you how many times I heard that.

Jesus did not claim to be God. If the NT is a repetition of the laws and commandments, then why don't you follow them? Why do you talk in church? Why aren't you covering your hair? ...ya know, in the Bible women are to cover their hair and if they don't it should be shaven. ....there are so many things that Christians get away with so they don't have to follow the laws and commandments. It was an easy way out. You should praise Paul for making your lives so much easier.

In Islam, The Quran is the last message from Allah. He has told us in the Quran that men have changed his books. That they have been corrupted and that Mohammad pbuh is the last messenger and that he (Allah) has completed the religion. The message speaks for itself. We do not deny Jesus. In Jesus' time, he was indeed the way the truth the life but that doesn't make him God. Just like Noah had his time and his people got punished, just like Moses etc. David the same, Jesus the same. But when it comes to the Quran, you cannot say that. It is the EXACT unaltered books for over 1400 years now. It is a test of time In it, it talks about the Day of Judgement, this life, Heaven, Hellfire, rules, laws, prophets, Jesus, Maryam, etc. etc. etc. It is truly a book from Allah. No man has been able to come up with a book like unto it. That is the test.

I believe the Bible has a better claim to inerrancy than the Qur'an, despite the fact that the opportunity for error amongst 66 books is far higher than in one book!

First, the supposed contradiction.
The sign of Jonah.
Jesus was three days and nights in 'sheol'. I understand that Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday, and was resurrected on the first day of the following week. The Gospels do not teach that Jesus was crucified on a Friday. This is a later tradition of the Church.

Muslims do not believe that Jesus is the Word of God, the Son of God, or the Saviour. Yet, scripture clearly states that there is only one Saviour from sin and death, and that is God.

What does this say about the Muslim attitude to sin and salvation? Muslims must believe that they can save themselves from sin.

 

[Redemptionsong]

How about the ones where Jesus is saying something and yet the preachers preach something else?

Let's be specific.

 

[joelr]

There have been many so called prophets and 'holy men' who claim to have been the mouthpiece of God. We have many historical religious leaders and those who have created entire new branches of christiantiy. We've seen new religions spring up all claiming divine authorship.

So this is to look specifically at how fulfilled bible prophecy gives us confidence and trust that the bible is a source that is truly from God.

An outstanding prophecy is about the destruction of the ancient city of Babylon.
The prophets Jeremiah, & Isaiah wrote about its coming destruction hundreds of years before it happened.
Jeremiah wrote in 625bce

Jeremiah 50
1 The word that Jehovah spoke concerning Babylon,+ concerning the land of the Chal·deʹans, through Jeremiah the prophet:...3. For a nation has come against her from the north.+
38 There is a devastation on her waters, and they will be dried up.+....She will never again be inhabited,
Nor will she be a place of residence throughout all generations.”+
40 ... “no one will dwell there, and no man will settle there.+


And thousands of years later the ancient city of Babylon has never been inhabited, it has never prospered and it remains a heap of ruins today.
This is just 1 example of bible prophecy that can build confidence in the bible as Gods Word.

No this is not evidence of a fulfilled prophecy. First, people are there. Saddam Hussains Palace was there for one. It's inhabited? It's a place of residence? There are offices, Temples, museums.... You can look on Google maps right now?
Second the dates given by scholarship on this book all say it was canonized way later. Doesn't matter because it's as wrong as any Iron age myth would be expected to be wrong.

"
Composition history[edit]
It is generally agreed that the three types of material interspersed through the book – poetic, narrative, and biographical – come from different sources or circles.[16] Authentic oracles of Jeremiah are probably to be found in the poetic sections of chapters 1 –25, but the book as a whole has been heavily edited and added to by followers (including perhaps the prophet's companion, the scribe Baruch) and later generations of Deuteronomists.[5] The date of the final versions of the book (Greek and Hebrew) can be suggested by the fact that the Greek shows concerns typical of the early Persian period, while the Masoretic (i.e., Hebrew) shows perspectives which, although known in the Persian period, did not reach their realisation until the 2nd century BCE"
Book of Jeremiah - Wikipedia

But as usual there are plenty of prophecies in the same book that clearly did not happen.

1. Jeremiah prophesies that all nations of the earth will embrace Judaism. This has not happened. 3:17
2. "The prophets prophesy falsely." 5:31
3. God will make Jerusalem an uninhabited "den of dragons." 9:11
4. Judah will become a desolate den of dragons. 10:22
5. "The prophets prophesy lies" in God's name. 14:14
6. God will destroy by famine and sword those who are misled by the prophets, as well as the prophets themselves. 14:15-16
7. Matthew (1:12) lists Jeconiah as an ancestor of Jesus -- which, according to this prophecy, disqualifies Jesus as the Messiah. 22:28-30
8. God's prophets are profane, wicked, adulterous, lying sodomites. 23:11-14
9. God damned lying prophets 23:25-40
10. Jeremiah prophesied that the Babylonian captivity would last 70 years. Yet it lasted from the fall of Jerusalem in 586 BCE to the fall of Babylon in 538 BCE, a period of only 48 years. 25:11
11. God says he is going to punish Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians for what they have done to his people -- even though God Himself is the one who made the Babylonians attack and enslave Judah! As part of the punishment God will take the land of the Babylonians and "make it perpetual desolations." A false prophecy, since present-day Iraq is quite occupied.25:12-13
12. Hananiah vs. Jeremiah: Good Prophet, Bad Prophet 28:1-17
13. A new prophet shows up proclaiming the good news: God was going to break the yoke of Babylon and bring the people of Judah back home. His name was Hananiah. 28:1-4
14. God kills Hananiah for disagreeing with Jeremiah. 28:16-17
15. God will send his usual blessings upon his people: "the sword, the famine, and the pestilence." He "will make them like vile figs, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil." 29:17-18
16. Matthew (2:17-18) quotes this verse, claiming that it was a prophecy of King Herod's alleged slaughter of the children in and around Bethlehem after the birth of Jesus. But this passage refers to the Babylonian captivity, as is clear by reading the next two verses (16 and 17), and, thus, has nothing to do with Herod's massacre. 31:15
17. Misquoted in Hebrews 8:9 as:
    "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord." 31:32
18. "David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel." But the Davidic line of Kings ended with Zedekiah; there were none during the Babylonian captivity, and there are none today. 33:17
19. God lies to Zedekiah again by telling him that he will die in peace and be buried with his fathers. But later (2 Kgings 25:7 and 52:10-11) he dies a violent death in a foreign land. 34:2, 5
20. The beginning of the end for Zedekiah. Despite God's earlier assurances (34:5) that he would die peacefully at home, here Zedekiah watches as his children are killed and then has his eyes put out and he is shackled and taken to Babylon. 39:6-7
21. All those who move to Egypt will die by the sword, famine, or pestilence. None "shall escape from the evil" that comes directly from God. But many, including Jews, have moved to Egypt and most seem to have escaped from God's promised evil. 42:15-18, 22
22. God will kill the young men of Damascus and set the city on fire. (Some Christians believe this prophecy is being fulfulled today in Syrian civil war.) 49:26-27
23. Jeremiah predicts that humans will never again live in Hazor, but will be replaced by dragons. But people still live there and dragons have never been seen. 49:33
24. God prophesies that Babylon will never again be inhabited. But it has been inhabited constantly since the prophecy was supposedly made, and is inhabited still today. 50:39
25. God says that Babylon will be desolate and uninhabited forever. He says that only dragons will live there. But Babylon has been dragon-free and continuously inhabited since then. 51:26, 29, 37, 43, 62, 64
26. "The sea is come up upon Babylon: she is covered with the multitude of the waves thereof." 51:42
27. God promised Zedekiah (Jeremiah 34:5) that he would die peacefully and be buried with his fathers. But here we see that he died a miserable death in foreign land. 52:10-11

Men wrote these books, Yahweh is a fictional character. Not even the prophecy you claim happened even happened. Yet you somehow ignore all the other ridiculous prophecies?

 

[MyM]

I believe the Bible has a better claim to inerrancy than the Qur'an, despite the fact that the opportunity for error amongst 66 books is far higher than in one book!

First, the supposed contradiction.
The sign of Jonah.
Jesus was three days and nights in 'sheol'. I understand that Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday, and was resurrected on the first day of the following week. The Gospels do not teach that Jesus was crucified on a Friday. This is a later tradition of the Church.

Muslims do not believe that Jesus is the Word of God, the Son of God, or the Saviour. Yet, scripture clearly states that there is only one Saviour from sin and death, and that is God.

What does this say about the Muslim attitude to sin and salvation? Muslims must believe that they can save themselves from sin.

Impossible it was not a wed....Sheol?? The place of utterly doom where even the wicked are placed and animals? He wasn't even buried in the earth. It was Friday even though you may not believe of course. Also, remember all his disciples forsook him and fled so they were NOT even an eye witness to this happening.


Of course we believe Jesus was sent with the words of Allah. Who are you to say we don't about our own religion. We do however do not believe he was God. He even says that he couldn't do anything of himself----meaning Allah is greater than he. He said to worship one lord----meaning Allah is one. In the olden days, the ones close to God were called the sons of God....there were MANY MANY MANY SONS of God in the bible and even another BEGOTTEN one in the book of Psalms. It's the Christians themselves that don't understand what they are reading and it isn't just faith....Jesus didn't come to change the laws but somehow yall just do what you want and say you are forgiven....what kind of disrespect do you have for your God?

In Islam, we believe in Allah, that he is the only one worthy of worship, his angels, his books, his prophets, fate and the day of judgement. Without believing in these we will not be a Muslim or a believer.

When it comes to sin, Islam tells us that we are all held accountable for our own sins. We don't do a sin and have the other one pay for it. Everyone is held accountable for what they do. Muslims only believe that Allah can save them from hellfire. He told us how, he showed us through the sunnah and it doesn't take a god sacrifice for us to be saved. Allah doesn't work like that. He created you, he knows you, he can make others in your place. Why put yourself above God and think you need a god to save you. We must work as in all the other messengers said to do.
Also Jesus said the say, “For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished” (Matthew 5:18). “Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”19

It's not hard to pick out the words of Jesus from the Bible, there not that many compared to the other words from different authors and unknown authors. Give it a try You will be shocked at what you find.


Remember what Paul says....2 Timothy 2:8 "Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel".

It's not Jesus' gospel you are preaching and teaching.

 

[firedragon]

I can understand it when a person presents alternative interpretations, or rejects passages

Thats exactly what the majority of Jews in the whole world say to Christians. They dont even appreciate the Christians calling their Tanakh the OT. In fact, I have met Jews who cringe.

 

[kaninchen]

Look carefully at all the evidence for Jesus as the 'suffering servant' of scripture, and you will see that no one else could possible fit the bill.

All 'proof text' approaches run into the fundamental problem that while a Christian audience views the NT as 'scripture/reportage', a non-Christian audience doesn't accept it as either scripture or reportage but merely as literature.

So, while you may, or may not, establish that 'Jesus' was the 'Suffering Servant' in a literary context, it no more establishes reality than arguing about characters in any novel would.

 

[Audie]

As you mentioned earlier, not everyone will see, and some will be blind.
Think of it this way...
Say 1,000,000 people heard someone say, "A red train with yellow wheels, black horns travelling to Timbuktu with only Indian people, will pass through Station 9 at exactly 5 PM on Wednesday, October 9th, 2028.

The train fitting that description, may actually arrive exactly on schedule, but 99% of those 1,000,000 may not believe that it did.

Why not? Red trains travelling to Timbuktu pass through Station 9 frequently, and unless one is paying attention to every detail, they will not realize the difference.

Recall, it was people who were paying attention - who were in expectation, that observed the actual fulfilment.
(Daniel 9:2) . . .in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of years mentioned in the word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet to fulfill the desolation of Jerusalem, namely, 70 years.

(Luke 3:15) . . .Now the people were in expectation and all of them were reasoning in their hearts about John, “May he perhaps be the Christ?. . .

Recall, Jesus' words...
(Matthew 24:15, 16) 15 “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment), 16 then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains.

Did you notice the word discern?
People want to see something like a house fall out the sky. In other words, they want to see what they want to see, as a sign for them to believe.
Yet they know things don't work that way where investigation is concerned.
They believe their theories that wolf-like creatures became whales, etc., and they have not seen any such thing. Yet, they believe.

Let them be. Jesus said as much. Matthew 15:14
It requires using perception, discernment, and suchlike, in any investigative study, and they know this.
Romans 1:20 highlights that fact. For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.

While they bury their head in the sand, you will be

All the signs Jesus performed gave evidence of his origin, yet what was he faced with?
"Teacher, we want to see a sign from you." Lol

The same thing is happening today dude. John 12:37 They won't see a thing.

Uh, no. A lot people see things that are not there. Bigfoot, UFOs, and Nostradamus predicting 911. Signs of " the flood".
And say there is something wrong with people who dont see what they see.

Others

 

[Audie]

All 'proof text' approaches run into the fundamental problem that while a Christian audience views the NT as 'scripture/reportage', a non-Christian audience doesn't accept it as either scripture or reportage but merely as literature.

So, while you may, or may not, establish that 'Jesus' was the 'Suffering Servant' in a literary context, it no more establishes reality than arguing about characters in any novel would.

Semi historical novel laced with magic realism.

 

[ppp]

I can understand it when a person presents alternative interpretations, or rejects passages that do not match their life experience (such as miracles); but I cannot accept the idea that a person 'does not believe the Bible'. The Bible contains a huge amount of information and wisdom. I want to know which bits you do not believe, and what has led you to your conclusion.

Ah, you are starting from a faulty premise. My fault for not being clear. For all practical purposes, my issues the Bible are irrelevant to my disbelief. At root, I don't believe any god claims (not just Christianity) because I see no evidence that any human knows or has the capability to know that one or more gods exist.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The coming of Jesus, dying for the sin of the world, His Return, The End of the Age, The New Heaven and Earth. All that has taken around 6 thousand years so far and counting. It is amazing, God has progressively revealed these things to His people, what’s more amazing is that they are hidden from a lot of people yet obvious to believers.

How is that amazing?

 

[nPeace]

And then Baha'is say the same thing to Christians. They say, "All the prophecies pointed to the year 1844. But you weren't looking for the right person and weren't looking in the right place."

You lost me on this one CG.
What does that have to do with the fact that the person made a prophetic utterance that was later fulfilled?
Does 30,000 persons looking for a train with green wheels, and some other 40,000 looking for a train with a white horn, invalidate the prophecy?
Can you help me out with this one. What's your argument exactly?

 

[SkepticThinker]

The Isaiah 53 prophesy is the claim that Jesus Christ fulfilled, yes. Thank-you very much. The rest of your talking is just that, smoke and mirror. I presented the Scriptural testimony of for example the Ethiopian who was asking who Isaiah 53 was talking about, Philip showed him how Jesus did.
You will have to form you own beliefs about it but to this point you have none, why continue?
Who else in history is Isaiah 53 talking about? Go ahead present your case. I will wait.

The Jews don't agree with you.

So how do we test and verify your claim?

 

[SkepticThinker]

The Bible, and the Holy Spirit, are my evidence of God.

Like all secular humanists, you choose to overlook the evidence for God that stares you in the face. It's no wonder that the Psalmist said, 'The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.' [Psalm 14:1]

The Bible was revealed to prophets who belonged to the tribes of lsrael. The books of scripture contain different forms of writing, including historical narrative, a form that is open to investigation.

When the Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus (1st century), wrote 'Antiquities of the Jews' he drew on Biblical material. It was believed to be accurate and reliable.

Today, new approaches and technologies allow historians and archaeologists greater access to evidence from the past. The discoveries being made provide support for the Biblical narrative.

Jews and Christians exist. Both have an origin in time, recorded by the Bible.

As a secular humanist, can you provide a coherent history of the Jew and Christian?

The Bible is filled with the claims, not the evidence.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Proof is not necessary. If it was possible to prove God's existence by reason alone then there would be no need for faith. And, as the scriptures (OT and NT) tell us, a person is justified by faith.

I believe the Bible to be a coherent and consistent scripture, and l'm not convinced by modern revisionism!

If you believe you know of contradictions then l'd like to hear about them!

Faith is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have evidence. Otherwise they'd just give the evidence.

Faith is not a pathway to truth because anything can be believed on faith. We need something better than that.

 

[SkepticThinker]

No need? I beg to differ.

We clearly live in two different universes. I believe mine was created, and has a purpose determined by God. Yours, l understand, was accidental, and offers no purpose, or hope, beyond what you give it.

True?

Why do you believe that the only way to have hope or purpose is to believe in the God you believe in?

 

[SkepticThinker]

prophecy is evidence of diety because no man can know the future. Humans are limited in their foreknowledge.

It would be impossible for you know what will befall a small town in the middle of nowhere in 100 years from now.

How do you know? And how did you demonstrate that?