Bible Prophecy as Evidence of a bible writers trustworthiness

[nPeace]

No this is not evidence of a fulfilled prophecy. First, people are there. Saddam Hussains Palace was there for one. It's inhabited? It's a place of residence? There are offices, Temples, museums.... You can look on Google maps right now?
Second the dates given by scholarship on this book all say it was canonized way later. Doesn't matter because it's as wrong as any Iron age myth would be expected to be wrong.

"
Composition history[edit]
It is generally agreed that the three types of material interspersed through the book – poetic, narrative, and biographical – come from different sources or circles.[16] Authentic oracles of Jeremiah are probably to be found in the poetic sections of chapters 1 –25, but the book as a whole has been heavily edited and added to by followers (including perhaps the prophet's companion, the scribe Baruch) and later generations of Deuteronomists.[5] The date of the final versions of the book (Greek and Hebrew) can be suggested by the fact that the Greek shows concerns typical of the early Persian period, while the Masoretic (i.e., Hebrew) shows perspectives which, although known in the Persian period, did not reach their realisation until the 2nd century BCE"
Book of Jeremiah - Wikipedia

But as usual there are plenty of prophecies in the same book that clearly did not happen.

1. Jeremiah prophesies that all nations of the earth will embrace Judaism. This has not happened. 3:17
2. "The prophets prophesy falsely." 5:31
3. God will make Jerusalem an uninhabited "den of dragons." 9:11
4. Judah will become a desolate den of dragons. 10:22
5. "The prophets prophesy lies" in God's name. 14:14
6. God will destroy by famine and sword those who are misled by the prophets, as well as the prophets themselves. 14:15-16
7. Matthew (1:12) lists Jeconiah as an ancestor of Jesus -- which, according to this prophecy, disqualifies Jesus as the Messiah. 22:28-30
8. God's prophets are profane, wicked, adulterous, lying sodomites. 23:11-14
9. God damned lying prophets 23:25-40
10. Jeremiah prophesied that the Babylonian captivity would last 70 years. Yet it lasted from the fall of Jerusalem in 586 BCE to the fall of Babylon in 538 BCE, a period of only 48 years. 25:11
11. God says he is going to punish Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians for what they have done to his people -- even though God Himself is the one who made the Babylonians attack and enslave Judah! As part of the punishment God will take the land of the Babylonians and "make it perpetual desolations." A false prophecy, since present-day Iraq is quite occupied.25:12-13
12. Hananiah vs. Jeremiah: Good Prophet, Bad Prophet 28:1-17
13. A new prophet shows up proclaiming the good news: God was going to break the yoke of Babylon and bring the people of Judah back home. His name was Hananiah. 28:1-4
14. God kills Hananiah for disagreeing with Jeremiah. 28:16-17
15. God will send his usual blessings upon his people: "the sword, the famine, and the pestilence." He "will make them like vile figs, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil." 29:17-18
16. Matthew (2:17-18) quotes this verse, claiming that it was a prophecy of King Herod's alleged slaughter of the children in and around Bethlehem after the birth of Jesus. But this passage refers to the Babylonian captivity, as is clear by reading the next two verses (16 and 17), and, thus, has nothing to do with Herod's massacre. 31:15
17. Misquoted in Hebrews 8:9 as:
    "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord." 31:32
18. "David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel." But the Davidic line of Kings ended with Zedekiah; there were none during the Babylonian captivity, and there are none today. 33:17
19. God lies to Zedekiah again by telling him that he will die in peace and be buried with his fathers. But later (2 Kgings 25:7 and 52:10-11) he dies a violent death in a foreign land. 34:2, 5
20. The beginning of the end for Zedekiah. Despite God's earlier assurances (34:5) that he would die peacefully at home, here Zedekiah watches as his children are killed and then has his eyes put out and he is shackled and taken to Babylon. 39:6-7
21. All those who move to Egypt will die by the sword, famine, or pestilence. None "shall escape from the evil" that comes directly from God. But many, including Jews, have moved to Egypt and most seem to have escaped from God's promised evil. 42:15-18, 22
22. God will kill the young men of Damascus and set the city on fire. (Some Christians believe this prophecy is being fulfulled today in Syrian civil war.) 49:26-27
23. Jeremiah predicts that humans will never again live in Hazor, but will be replaced by dragons. But people still live there and dragons have never been seen. 49:33
24. God prophesies that Babylon will never again be inhabited. But it has been inhabited constantly since the prophecy was supposedly made, and is inhabited still today. 50:39
25. God says that Babylon will be desolate and uninhabited forever. He says that only dragons will live there. But Babylon has been dragon-free and continuously inhabited since then. 51:26, 29, 37, 43, 62, 64
26. "The sea is come up upon Babylon: she is covered with the multitude of the waves thereof." 51:42
27. God promised Zedekiah (Jeremiah 34:5) that he would die peacefully and be buried with his fathers. But here we see that he died a miserable death in foreign land. 52:10-11

Men wrote these books, Yahweh is a fictional character. Not even the prophecy you claim happened even happened. Yet you somehow ignore all the other ridiculous prophecies?

Can you please point out Babylon on a map 3000 years ago, and put it against a modern map of Babylon, you are referencing.
I want to see exactly what you are talking about.

 

[nPeace]

How do you know? And how did you demonstrate that?

If you believe different, all you have to do is show us one man that did it. That would be your demonstrating otherwise.
What Bree said is already demonstrated. There is nothing more to demonstrate... on her part.
We can't ask someone to demonstrate that it does not rain.

 

[nPeace]

Uh, no. A lot people see things that are not there. Bigfoot, UFOs, and Nostradamus predicting 911. Signs of " the flood".
And say there is something wrong with people who dont see what they see.

Others

I tire of these lame arguments.
A lot of people see things that are there, and they report it (Hezekiah's Tunnel, Hezekiah himself, The list is extremely long, but if you want it, I can make a list for you), and others deny it... until.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Ya know, being pregnant in Islam is a blessing, not a curse. Even if she were to die in labor, she is considered a martyr. In Islam, the more pain one has, the more his sins are erased. This is a mercy from Allah. You may see it as something horrible, but a mu'min (practicing believer) takes Allah's words and Mohammad's sunnah very dearly and close to his/her heart. Allah has given us many ways to ask for forgiveness and has given us many ways of him relieving our pain and suffering being it mentally or physically. Allah is the cure.

So, it is only Muhammad's words that convince you that your sin is forgiven. Outside of that, you have no evidence to show that Allah is able to forgive sin. Do you know that Allah has resurrected Muhammad, or even deemed him worthy of resurrection? If Muhammad has not been raised to a place of glory, what hope have you, a follower of Muhammad's words?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Impossible it was not a wed....Sheol?? The place of utterly doom where even the wicked are placed and animals? He wasn't even buried in the earth. It was Friday even though you may not believe of course. Also, remember all his disciples forsook him and fled so they were NOT even an eye witness to this happening.


Of course we believe Jesus was sent with the words of Allah. Who are you to say we don't about our own religion. We do however do not believe he was God. He even says that he couldn't do anything of himself----meaning Allah is greater than he. He said to worship one lord----meaning Allah is one. In the olden days, the ones close to God were called the sons of God....there were MANY MANY MANY SONS of God in the bible and even another BEGOTTEN one in the book of Psalms. It's the Christians themselves that don't understand what they are reading and it isn't just faith....Jesus didn't come to change the laws but somehow yall just do what you want and say you are forgiven....what kind of disrespect do you have for your God?

In Islam, we believe in Allah, that he is the only one worthy of worship, his angels, his books, his prophets, fate and the day of judgement. Without believing in these we will not be a Muslim or a believer.

When it comes to sin, Islam tells us that we are all held accountable for our own sins. We don't do a sin and have the other one pay for it. Everyone is held accountable for what they do. Muslims only believe that Allah can save them from hellfire. He told us how, he showed us through the sunnah and it doesn't take a god sacrifice for us to be saved. Allah doesn't work like that. He created you, he knows you, he can make others in your place. Why put yourself above God and think you need a god to save you. We must work as in all the other messengers said to do.
Also Jesus said the say, “For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished” (Matthew 5:18). “Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”19

It's not hard to pick out the words of Jesus from the Bible, there not that many compared to the other words from different authors and unknown authors. Give it a try You will be shocked at what you find.


Remember what Paul says....2 Timothy 2:8 "Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel".

It's not Jesus' gospel you are preaching and teaching.

If you believe that the Bible is full of error and contradiction, as all Muslims believe, then why has a scholar not attempted to rewrite the scriptures with all the errors taken out? Let me guess, it's because the task would be impossible. Once the threads of doubt begin to tear at scripture, the whole of scripture must be rejected. and where does this leave Islam, which actually claims to believe in the prophets of the Bible? It's actually a nonsense and a mess, all brought about by a false prophecy (IMO).

 

[Redemptionsong]

Thats exactly what the majority of Jews in the whole world say to Christians. They dont even appreciate the Christians calling their Tanakh the OT. In fact, I have met Jews who cringe.

I have sympathy with Jews because they are holding fast to a covenant that they believe is everlasting. The Spirit of the law is, I would agree, eternal, but the heart of man is not pure, and, as such, man is incapable of fulfilling the law in righteousness. It takes a sinless mediator to complete the law. For Christians, that man (who is also the Lord of heaven) is the only one capable of fulfilling the law in righteousness. Christians live by his Spirit of righteousness, not their own!

In presenting this argument to Muslims, I am saying that Muhammad cannot have been sinless, because the Spirit of God was not in him by 'measure' [John 3:31-34]. There has only ever been one sinless mediator, and that was Jesus Christ. This is what scripture teaches and is not solely my personal opinion. [1 Timothy 2:5]

 

[Redemptionsong]

All 'proof text' approaches run into the fundamental problem that while a Christian audience views the NT as 'scripture/reportage', a non-Christian audience doesn't accept it as either scripture or reportage but merely as literature.

So, while you may, or may not, establish that 'Jesus' was the 'Suffering Servant' in a literary context, it no more establishes reality than arguing about characters in any novel would.

It's true that faith must play a part in accepting scripture as being God's word. But God has decided to use faith, hope and love as His way of determining who is worthy. It says in Hebrews 11:1, 'Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen'. Faith is both 'substance' and 'evidence'. It is faith that pleases God. The book of Hebrews, chapter 11, lists the ways in which faith brought results for Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, Samuel and many others.

Hebrews 11:6 says, 'But without faith, it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.'

Faith is a real problem for the sceptic. No amount of vain philosophy (based on reasoning and proof) will build faith because the object of faith (God) is invisible. So, how is faith possible? It's only possible if we repent of our own self-righteousness and learn to trust the Saviour, I believe.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Ah, you are starting from a faulty premise. My fault for not being clear. For all practical purposes, my issues the Bible are irrelevant to my disbelief. At root, I don't believe any god claims (not just Christianity) because I see no evidence that any human knows or has the capability to know that one or more gods exist.

What if your difficulty arises because you have no faith? That's a dilemma for the unbeliever. An unbeliever is not prepared to show any trust, and therefore they see no response from God. Have you ever thought that your stubborness might be at the root of the problem?

 

[Redemptionsong]

The Bible is filled with the claims, not the evidence.

Faith is shown to bring about evidence. For example, Noah believed that God was going to flood a wicked world. Noah followed God's will, and build an ark in the desert. What would have happened if he had waited for the flood before building his ark?

It's hard to stomach, but the unbeliever goes to his death stubbornly holding to the belief that his own finite intellect is greater than the Creator's! Maybe it's time you started listening to the claims!

 

[Redemptionsong]

Faith is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have evidence. Otherwise they'd just give the evidence.

Faith is not a pathway to truth because anything can be believed on faith. We need something better than that.

This is interesting, but it goes against everything the Bible teaches. The Bible begins with the words, 'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.' There's no room for a philosophical discussion around the kitchen table. It was God who created. Everything thereafter is built upon this glorious premise!

Faith is not blind acceptance, but a realisation that love is the most creative force anywhere. Life is created by love. To believe in love, one must have faith.

 

[SkepticThinker]

If you believe different, all you have to do is show us one man that did it. That would be your demonstrating otherwise.
What Bree said is already demonstrated. There is nothing more to demonstrate... on her part.
We can't ask someone to demonstrate that it does not rain.

The person making the claim has the burden of proof. It's not up to me to disprove a claim made without evidence.

What she said is most certainly not demonstrated.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I tire of these lame arguments.
A lot of people see things that are there, and they report it (Hezekiah's Tunnel, Hezekiah himself, The list is extremely long, but if you want it, I can make a list for you), and others deny it... until.

So you want to just disregard and ignore those other claims because ... ?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Faith is shown to bring about evidence.

Sorry, I don't know what that means.

For example, Noah believed that God was going to flood a wicked world. Noah followed God's will, and build an ark in the desert. What would have happened if he had waited for the flood before building his ark?

That's a story in an old book. That's a story in an old book that is not in evidence.

I's hard to stomach, but the unbeliever goes to his death stubbornly holding to the belief that his own finite intellect is greater than the Creator's! Maybe it's time you started listening to the claims!

Can a person believe anything on faith?

I don't see how this refutes the fact that the Bible is filled with claims, rather than evidence.

 

[SkepticThinker]

This is interesting, but it goes against everything the Bible teaches.

So? Like I said, the Bible is just the claim.

In reality, faith doesn't get us anywhere.

The Bible begins with the words, 'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.' There's no room for a philosophical discussion around the kitchen table. It was God who created. Everything thereafter is built upon this glorious premise!

This is a claim. Not evidence.
There are many, many religions in the world, also claiming they know how their Gods started everything, and they don't all agree.
Evidence is required.

Faith is not blind acceptance, but a realisation that love is the most creative force anywhere. Life is created by love. To believe in love, one must have faith.

It sure seems that way to me. Hence the quote about faith being the excuse people give when they don't have evidence.
Here you are declaring we have to believe things on faith, and you've provided no evidence. So the quote seems to fit quite nicely.

 

[Audie]

I tire of these lame arguments.
A lot of people see things that are there, and they report it (Hezekiah's Tunnel, Hezekiah himself, The list is extremely long, but if you want it, I can make a list for you), and others deny it... until.

More like you are growing exhausted trying to
deny reality.

 

[kaninchen]

It's only possible if we repent of our own self-righteousness and learn to trust the Saviour, I believe.

What if you're talking to somebody who considers the Christian concept of 'Saviour' ('salvation'/'saved') as an entirely unnecessary construct (drawn from a work of literature)?

 

[MyM]

So, it is only Muhammad's words that convince you that your sin is forgiven. Outside of that, you have no evidence to show that Allah is able to forgive sin. Do you know that Allah has resurrected Muhammad, or even deemed him worthy of resurrection? If Muhammad has not been raised to a place of glory, what hope have you, a follower of Muhammad's words?

We don't need to have a MAN-MADE sacrifice to be able to get to Paradise

In Islam, Allah says that he can forgive and WILL forgive his servants that repent unto Him. But He did say, that there is one sin he will never forgive and that is associating partners unto Him.

Mohammad pbuh was just a messenger of Allah and started the revelation at the age of 40 yrs. In the Quran it says,

“And We have sent you (O Muhammad SAW) not but as a mercy for the Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists)” al-Anbiya’ 21:107
“Say (O Muhammad): I am only a man like you. It has been revealed to me that your Ilaah (God) is One Ilaah (God _ i.e. Allah)”al-Kahf 18:110

The Prophet pbuh forbade when he said: “Do not exaggerate about me as was exaggerated about ‘Eesa (Jesus) ibn Maryam. Say: the slave of Allah and His Messenger.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6830.

We are not to worship the prophets and messengers of Allah. peace and blessings be upon them all. We are to only worship our Creator who sent them. So you see it isn't a competition.

Mohammad died and will be resurrected. Jesus never died according to Allah in the Quran. We await for his return.

 

[kaninchen]

Semi historical novel laced with magic realism.

Turned out to be a very marketable product though - the "you're all doomed to eternal awfulness unless you take our cure," approach has proved pretty successful.

 

[ppp]

For all practical purposes, my issues the Bible are irrelevant to my disbelief. At root, I don't believe any god claims (not just Christianity) because I see no evidence that any human knows or has the capability to know that one or more gods exist.

What if your difficulty arises because you have no faith? That's a dilemma for the unbeliever. An unbeliever is not prepared to show any trust, and therefore they see no response from God. Have you ever thought that your stubborness might be at the root of the problem?

So, this is just a variation on a standard canned response that believers deliver when they cannot, or will not address what was actually said. Each sentence is an attempt to denigrate me by asserting that I have a difficulty, that I am on the horns of a dilemma, that I show no trust, and that I am stubborn. It is the moral and intellectual equivalent of a group of men implying that a woman only disagrees with them because she is on her period.

 

[MyM]

If you believe that the Bible is full of error and contradiction, as all Muslims believe, then why has a scholar not attempted to rewrite the scriptures with all the errors taken out? Let me guess, it's because the task would be impossible. Once the threads of doubt begin to tear at scripture, the whole of scripture must be rejected. and where does this leave Islam, which actually claims to believe in the prophets of the Bible? It's actually a nonsense and a mess, all brought about by a false prophecy (IMO).

Because it can't be trusted and as Muslims, there is NO NEED when you have the final message of Allah protected. The Bible doesn't even know some of the authors of the Bible! and you want to attribute that to God?? Doesn't work like that. You say all scripture is inspired. Did Allah inspire, in the book of Ezekiel to write that pornography? There are sooo many things wrong that you cannot even begin to start You wouldn't know where to.