Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[samtonga43]

Then why do you follow me around?

How does my pointing out that you are following me around have anything to do with my opinion of myself? If a stalker followed me around that would have nothing to do with how I feel about myself.

 

[samtonga43]

Then why do you follow me around?
How does my pointing out that you are following me around have anything to do with my opinion of myself? If a stalker followed me around that would have nothing to do with how I feel about myself.

Tb, I am not 'following you around'. What makes you think I am?

Now, how about addressing the rest of my post? Here it is again...
MrA believes that it was mission given them by God
MrA is mistaken.
MrB believes that it was mission given them by God
Mr B is mistaken.
MrC believes that it was mission given them by God
MrC is correct.

A non-messenger of God could believe he was a Messenger of God, but if he wrote about God and God's purpose for humans both individually and collectively, it would not be COMING from God so it would just be gibberish.

Not necessarily. Just because it’s not coming from God does not mean that it is gibberish. Logic 101. In any case, would you recognize the non-messenger nature of MrA and Mr B? If so, how?

 

[Trailblazer]

Tb, I am not 'following you around'. What makes you think I am?

Maybe because you are only on the threads I am on?

Now, how about addressing the rest of my post? Here it is again...
MrA believes that it was mission given them by God
MrA is mistaken.
MrB believes that it was mission given them by God
Mr B is mistaken.
MrC believes that it was mission given them by God
MrC is correct.

Not necessarily. Just because it’s not coming from God does not mean that it is gibberish. Logic 101. In any case, would you recognize the non-messenger nature of MrA and Mr B? If so, how?

No, it would not necessarily be gibberish just because it did not come from a Messenger of God.
No, I would not recognize the non-messenger nature of MrA and Mr B.

 

[samtonga43]

Maybe because you are only on the threads I am on?

Again, you are being illogical. But I'll bet you can't see why.

No, it would not necessarily be gibberish just because it did not come from a Messenger of God.

So when you said it would be gibberish... you were wrong?

No, I would not recognize the non-messenger nature of MrA and Mr B.

Right. So you would not know it A. and B.are 'messengers of Gpd'.

 

[Trailblazer]

Again, you are being illogical. But I'll bet you can't see why.

Nothing is illogical about my seeing on your Profile what you have posted and on what thread.
but with you everything I do is illogical, only it isn't illogical becaue if it was you could explain why, and you cannot.

So when you said it would be gibberish... you were wrong?

I miss-spoke because I was on the run. All humans make mistakes.

Right. So you would not know it A. and B.are 'messengers of God'.

Now that is illogical. Just because I would not know that are NOT Messengers if God, that would not mean they ARE Messengers of God.

 

[Tiberius]

I know by studying the history, the character of the alleged Messenger, what he did on His mission, the content and quality of what he wrote, what his mission led to, how may followers he had, what those followers did during his life and after he died.

And people have done the same thing regarding other people and reached conclusions entirely different to yours. This does not seem to be a reliable method.

And so? What does that mean?
I will tell you what it does NOT mean. It does not mean that nobody actually HAS a true faith. A faith is either true or false, and what people BELIEVE about it has no bearing on truth or falsehood.

Exactly. Which is why we should forget belief and base our conclusions on TESTABLE EVIDENCE - something which you have repeatedly claimed that religions can not provide.

I did not say that it is true because it made sense to me and resonated with me. It is either true or false. What I believe about it has no bearing on that.

No, it does not prove it is false just because it makes no sense to someone and does not resonate with them. It is either true or false and what people believe about that has no bearing on that.

You've said numerous times that you KNOW it is true.

No, that is not what I said. I said I independently researched the Baha'i Faith and determined that it was true. How else would I know? I was not going to believe what someone else said about it.

'

"I independently researched one car and determined that it was the best car. How else would I know? I was not going to believe what someone else said about it."

After I saw the car I wanted there was no need to look at other cars.

Then how could you be sure that there wasn't another car out there that would suit you even better?

I have picked all my cars that way and I still have all of them. Of course I took all of them to my mechanic to have the 100 point check before I bought them.

Woah, hold your horses, the analogy is falling apart here.

You say you have a mechanic check the cars, and yet you do not do the equivalent with your religious faith? You said that you were NOT going to believe what someone else said about your religion, but you seem perfectly happy to believe what someone else says about your car!

I picked all my houses the same way and I still have all three of those houses and never regretted the purchase, but of course I hired a home inspector before I purchased them.

And the same issue is raised.

I picked all my colleges the same way and I graduated from all of them and got various degrees.

And did you enroll in the first college you looked at, and in the first course you saw they offered?

I picked my husband the same way and we are still married over 36 years later...

And did you have no other partners before him?

Comparison shopping is not always necessary and could cause the best deal to get away.

There is no way to know that what you got IS the best deal unless you can make a comparison!

 

[samtonga43]

Nothing is illogical about my seeing on your Profile what you have posted and on what thread.but with you everything I do is illogical, only it isn't illogical becaue if it was you could explain why, and you cannot.

Much of what you write is illogical, Tb. I and others do try to explain why, but I fear your mind is closed to the possibility that we are correct.
Here's an example: You looked around for some information about me, and and found that I have been on one or two threads that you also have posted on.
You then assume that I am following you from thread to thread. This is completely illogical. If you really cannot see why it is illogical there is nothing more I can say.

I miss-spoke because I was on the run. All humans make mistakes.

Tb, Stop running from one post to anothrer, one thread to another, one forum to another. You are brain-washing yourself. The best thing you can do for yourself is to have a break. I speak with concern for your well-being.

Now that is illogical. Just because I would not know that are NOT Messengers if God, that would not mean they ARE Messengers of God.

You got it!

 

[Trailblazer]

Tb, Stop running from one post to another, one thread to another, one forum to another. You are brain-washing yourself. The best thing you can do for yourself is to have a break. I speak with concern for your well-being.

You cannot tell me what to do...
The hundred-dollar question is why you care what I do.
You know more about my well-being than I do?

 

[samtonga43]

You cannot tell me what to do...
The hundred-dollar question is why you care what I do.
You know more about my well-being than I do?

I am giving you some advice, Tb. You can think about it or reject it.
The reason I care is because ... well, I don't really know. But I want the best for you.

 

[Trailblazer]

And people have done the same thing regarding other people and reached conclusions entirely different to yours. This does not seem to be a reliable method.

Why would it matter if ‘other people’ reached different conclusions?

Exactly. Which is why we should forget belief and base our conclusions on TESTABLE EVIDENCE - something which you have repeatedly claimed that religions can not provide.

If that is what you require and religions cannot provide it then I’d say you are out of luck.

You've said numerous times that you KNOW it is true.

But I never said that it is true because I know it is true.

Then how could you be sure that there wasn't another car out there that would suit you even better?

There might have been another car that would suited me better, but I don’t want to spend my time looking for the best car.

A religion is not the same as a car. When we pick a car we want one that is best suited to our personal needs. A religion should not be selected to suit our personal needs, it should be selected because it is true. I might like Christianity better than the Baha'i Faith because it has certain features I like, but I am not going to pick Christianity based upon what I like. I want to pick the religion that God wants me to pick and I believe that is the Baha'i Faith, since it is the religion for this age.

Woah, hold your horses, the analogy is falling apart here.

You say you have a mechanic check the cars, and yet you do not do the equivalent with your religious faith? You said that you were NOT going to believe what someone else said about your religion, but you seem perfectly happy to believe what someone else says about your car!

The analogy does break down because a car is not the same as a religion. A mechanic is qualified to know more about cars than I know, so I have the mechanic check all my cars before I buy any. However, nobody else is more qualified to know more than anyone else about a religion, so I do not need anyone else’s opinion about a religion I am looking at.

And the same issue is raised.

The house purchase is the same as the car purchase. A home inspector is qualified to know more about houses than I know, so I have the home inspector check all my houses before I buy any. However, nobody else is more qualified to know more than anyone else about a religion, so I do not need anyone else’s opinion about a religion I am looking at.

And did you enroll in the first college you looked at, and in the first course you saw they offered?

I enrolled in the first college I looked at but I chose the courses I wanted to enroll in.

And did you have no other partners before him?

I had some boyfriends but I never considered marrying any of them.

There is no way to know that what you got IS the best deal unless you can make a comparison!

I did look at other cars and other houses before I bought one, my point was that I knew which one I wanted as soon as I saw it. I also knew which religion I wanted as soon as I saw it.

All religions are not the same, some have special features. There was no religion to compare my religion to that had the same features, so it was a no-brainer. How could I compare it to a religion that does not exist?

 

[Sheldon]

Tiberius said: ↑
And people have done the same thing regarding other people and reached conclusions entirely different to yours. This does not seem to be a reliable method.

Why would it matter if ‘other people’ reached different conclusions?

IT'S NOT A RELIABLE METHOD...
IT'S NOT A RELIABLE METHOD...
IT'S NOT A RELIABLE METHOD...
IT'S NOT A RELIABLE METHOD...
IT'S NOT A RELIABLE METHOD...
IT'S NOT A RELIABLE METHOD...

 

[samtonga43]

All religions are not the same, some have special features. There was no religion to compare my religion to that had the same features, so it was a no-brainer. How could I compare it to a religion that does not exist?

I don't know why this makes me laugh (I really did laugh out loud)' It's like going along to the 'Religion Store'!

I'm in the process of buying a new fridge / freezer and my brain is full of their similarities and differences and 'special features'. The one I'm in favor of at the moment has different special features to the special features my husband likes. What to do? Well, we went to "Which".

Which? promotes informed consumer choice in the purchase of goods and services by testing products, highlighting inferior products or services, raising awareness of consumer rights and offering independent advice.

There we found that the special features offered by the one my husband liked were were expensive, unnecessary add-ons which actually reduced the efficiency of the product.

Isn't there a 'Which Religion' magazine you could have consulted, Tb?

 

[Trailblazer]

Isn't there a 'Which Religion' magazine you could have consulted, Tb?

I did not need to consult a magazine because I knew which religion to select.

Good luck on picking out your refrigerator... Our refrigerator is a 1986 model, and it is still kicking so I see no reason to replace it.

All our appliances are 1986 since that is when the house was built. I just bought a new stove for my tenant at my rental house and it had all the bells and whistles but I don't need any of those since I am not into cooking.

 

[samtonga43]

I did not need to consult a magazine because I knew which religion to select.

My comment about the magazine was not a serious comment, Tb. But you do speak of religions as one would speak of commodities.
Kinda like:
“I’m just going to the store for some Judaism, honey. I’ll pick up some pasta at the same time".
Back soon!”

(This means not to be taken literally)

 

[Tiberius]

Why would it matter if ‘other people’ reached different conclusions?

Because some of them are WRONG.

You can not have two contradictory accounts of reality and have them both be right.

If that is what you require and religions cannot provide it then I’d say you are out of luck.

If religions can not provide it, then I'd say religions have no basis for being touted as accurate accounts of reality. They should be treated as nothing more than fairy tales.

But I never said that it is true because I know it is true.

But that conclusion does follow.

A person doesn't KNOW that a thing is true and still not believe it is true.

There might have been another car that would suited me better, but I don’t want to spend my time looking for the best car.

And there might have been another religion that suited you better, but apparently you didn't want to waste time looking for the best religion...

A religion is not the same as a car. When we pick a car we want one that is best suited to our personal needs. A religion should not be selected to suit our personal needs, it should be selected because it is true. I might like Christianity better than the Baha'i Faith because it has certain features I like, but I am not going to pick Christianity based upon what I like. I want to pick the religion that God wants me to pick and I believe that is the Baha'i Faith, since it is the religion for this age.

And yet you have said many times that all religions LACK the things needed to show they are true. It seems that our personal opinion is all we have!

The analogy does break down because a car is not the same as a religion. A mechanic is qualified to know more about cars than I know, so I have the mechanic check all my cars before I buy any. However, nobody else is more qualified to know more than anyone else about a religion, so I do not need anyone else’s opinion about a religion I am looking at.

Of course it's not the same.

A mechanic can actually run tests on a car. No one can verify any religion. So they're all just as bunk as any other!

The house purchase is the same as the car purchase. A home inspector is qualified to know more about houses than I know, so I have the home inspector check all my houses before I buy any. However, nobody else is more qualified to know more than anyone else about a religion, so I do not need anyone else’s opinion about a religion I am looking at.

And the same comment again, just change "mechanic" to "house inspector."

I enrolled in the first college I looked at but I chose the courses I wanted to enroll in.

You weren't interested in whether some other college could give you a better education?

I had some boyfriends but I never considered marrying any of them.

Then you did NOT pick him the same way. He was not the first person you had a relationship with.

I did look at other cars and other houses before I bought one, my point was that I knew which one I wanted as soon as I saw it. I also knew which religion I wanted as soon as I saw it.

Ah, so now you pick the one YOU WANT. I thought you said a religion should be chosen because it is true, not because it's what we want.

All religions are not the same, some have special features. There was no religion to compare my religion to that had the same features, so it was a no-brainer. How could I compare it to a religion that does not exist?

All cars are not the same, some have special features. There was no car to compare my car to that had the same features, so it was a no-brainer. How could I compare it to a car that does not exist?

 

[CG Didymus]

My comment about the magazine was not a serious comment, Tb. But you do speak of religions as one would speak of commodities.
Kinda like:
“I’m just going to the store for some Judaism, honey. I’ll pick up some pasta at the same time".
Back soon!”

(This means not to be taken literally)

Great analogy. Let me add to the list...
We're getting low on some other religions too. See if they have some fresh Zoroastrianism. The last time I went to the store it looked like all the Zoroastrianism had been sitting on the shelf for a long time. Oh, and maybe a pound of Christianity. We use it up pretty fast. Wouldn't want to run out. And that Baha'i Faith in the fridge looks old. Did you even try any? Or should we just toss it out?

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, look who the wind blew in, just when I was about to replace my favorite atheist with another atheist.
Now you just went to the front of the line.

Because some of them are WRONG.

You can not have two contradictory accounts of reality and have them both be right.

True, but so what? As long as you reach the right conclusion why would it matter if other people reached the wrong conclusion? Most people are going to reach the wrong conclusion because most people follow the crowd. But you are not responsible for other people, you are only accountable to God for your own belief.

If religions can not provide it, then I'd say religions have no basis for being touted as accurate accounts of reality. They should be treated as nothing more than fairy tales.

That is your prerogative.

But that conclusion does follow.

A person doesn't KNOW that a thing is true and still not believe it is true.

No, but my belief/knowing is not what MAKES it true. It is either true or false. If it is true it would not matter if everyone in the world believed it was false; it would still be true.

And there might have been another religion that suited you better, but apparently you didn't want to waste time looking for the best religion...

I was not searching for a SUITABLE religion, I was searching for a TRUE religion. The Baha'i Faith certainly is not the easiest religion to belong to. Christianity is a lot easier because all you have to do is believe Jesus died for your sins and you are saved and forgiven. However easy is not always better. Baha’is get more rewards in heaven.

“Drink with healthy relish, O people of Bahá. Ye are indeed they with whom it shall be well. This is what they who have near access to God have attained. This is the flowing water ye were promised in the Qur’án, and later in the Bayán, as a recompense from your Lord, the God of Mercy. Blessed are they that quaff it.” Gleanings, p. 46

“Blessed art thou, O My name, inasmuch as thou hast entered Mine Ark, and art speeding, through the power of My sovereign and most exalted might, on the ocean of grandeur, and art numbered with My favored ones whose names the Finger of God hath inscribed. Thou hast quaffed the cup which is life indeed from the hands of this Youth, around Whom revolve the Manifestations of the All-Glorious, and the brightness of Whose presence they Who are the Day Springs of Mercy extol in the day time and in the night season.” Gleanings, p. 302

And yet you have said many times that all religions LACK the things needed to show they are true. It seems that our personal opinion is all we have!

Religions might lack the things needed to show YOU that they are true, but that does not mean they are lacking in the ability to be believed.

Of course it's not the same.

A mechanic can actually run tests on a car. No one can verify any religion. So they're all just as bunk as any other!

That is true, that is one way a religion is different from a car, but it is not logical to conclude that ALL religions are bunk just because no tests can be run on them. To conclude that would be the fallacy of jumping to conclusions.

And the same comment again, just change "mechanic" to "house inspector."

True.

You weren't interested in whether some other college could give you a better education?

No, I started with a community college and then I went to several universities. I as not going to pay more than I had to and that is why I never had any student debt.

Then you did NOT pick him the same way. He was not the first person you had a relationship with.

No, but he was the first one I ever had sex with, at age 32. Trailblazer tells all.

Ah, so now you pick the one YOU WANT. I thought you said a religion should be chosen because it is true, not because it's what we want.

I knew which religion I wanted and that was the religion that I determined was true. I wanted it because it was true, NOT because it was comfortable.

All cars are not the same, some have special features. There was no car to compare my car to that had the same features, so it was a no-brainer. How could I compare it to a car that does not exist?

I highly doubt that, because there are a lot more cars on the marketplace than there are religions.

 

[samtonga43]

I knew which religion I wanted and that was the religion that I determined was true. I wanted it because it was true, NOT because it was comfortable.

I highly doubt that, because there are a lot more cars on the marketplace than there are religions.

A conversation with yourself?

 

[Trailblazer]

A conversation with yourself?

No, I am having a conversation with Tiberius.

 

[samtonga43]

No, I am having a conversation with Tiberius.

Are these Tiberius' words...
Tiberius said: ↑
All cars are not the same, some have special features. There was no car to compare my car to that had the same features, so it was a no-brainer. How could I compare it to a car that does not exist?
I highly doubt that, because there are a lot more cars on the marketplace than there are religions.

?