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Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
That test is for when there is a Prophet among people. Right now we do not.
Like I already said, I don't think you or I believe that story literally happened. To say it can't happen because there is no prophet amongst us is kind of a cop out. No one has enough faith in God to challenge false prophets and unbelievers? To have God send fire down from heaven to consume a sacrifice or do anything else that could show that maybe, just maybe, God is really there? That's the problem. Do believers have that much faith? And would God respond? We'll never know.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Did he state that his dream meant that he would be martyred in seven years time? If not, it is not a prophesy. It is others attaching meaning after the event.

.
Yes, He did.
As Bahaullah referenced where the Bab had Said that:


"Gracious God! In His Book, which He hath entitled “Qayyúmu’l-Asmá,”—the first, the greatest and mightiest of all books—He prophesied His own martyrdom. In it is this passage: “O thou Remnant of God! I have sacrificed myself wholly for Thee; I have accepted curses for Thy sake; and have yearned for naught but martyrdom in the path of Thy love. Sufficient Witness unto me is God, the Exalted, the Protector, the Ancient of Days!”

Likewise, in His interpretation of the letter “Há,” He craved martyrdom, saying: “Methinks I heard a Voice calling in my inmost being: ‘Do thou sacrifice the thing which Thou lovest most in the path of God, even as Ḥusayn, peace be upon him, hath offered up his life for My sake.’ And were I not regardful of this inevitable mystery, by Him, Who hath my being between His hands even if all the kings of the earth were to be leagued together they would be powerless to take from me a single letter, how much less can these servants who are worthy of no attention, and who verily are of the outcast… That all may know the degree of My patience, My resignation, and self-sacrifice in the path of God.”

Obviously the Bab knew He would be martyred just as Imam Hussein did. So, these evidences confirm it, for me.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
We may not have an official interpretation of the whole passage you quoted, but we have many parts of this passage.

The prophecy mentions:

"I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple"

I see this parallel with what Baha'u'llah wrote:

"Be fair, O peoples of the earth! Which is preferable, this, or a temple which is built of clay?"
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, Pages 96-138


These are related to prophecies about rebuilding the Temple for Jews. Revelation is saying that, in the End, there wont be a physical temple as Jews expect but, rather a Manifestation of God, Himself is that Temple.


Regarding the rest of Revelation 21, Abdulbaha said the Bride represents the New Revelation and also the new Jerusalem, represents the new Laws of God.
Baha'u'llah called Religion of God "City". This city has 12 foundations. It is said Bahai Faith has 12 foundational teachings.
I dont have an official interpretation of the part "It has name of twelve apostles of Lamb".
The Glory of God, represents the light that shines within the lamp, and the Lamb is Lamp. To me, the Glory of God, is the spiritual reality of the Manifestation of God, and the Lamp is the physical body. The spirit is within the Body, as the light is within the lamp. So, yes, from a Bahai perspective this could be Baha'u'llah. But the Glory of God, is spiritual reality of Baha'u'llah and the Lamb is the physical body.
Thanks, for looking all that up.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
A ludicrous argument.
God enables messengers to reveal prophesies, but insists that they have to be so vague and tenuous that only people who already believe in those prophesies can actually see them?
What is the point in providing evidence that cannot be seen by people who need convincing. It's "preaching to the converted" gone mad!
Not people who have already believed. No, but one who starts from a neutral position, unbiased, and fair, and investigate the signs, will see its truth eventually.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
A ludicrous argument.
God enables messengers to reveal prophesies, but insists that they have to be so vague and tenuous that only people who already believe in those prophesies can actually see them?
What is the point in providing evidence that cannot be seen by people who need convincing. It's "preaching to the converted" gone mad!

That would be assuming we can fully understand the purpose of creation?

If God has a purpose, there is a wisdom of how that purpose is to be achieved.

Thus faith tells us, we allow God's Will to become our life.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Exactly. Hence my position that a vague prophecy is no prophecy at all.
Then there is dead on, no question about it prophecies.... allegedly. Until we look more closely at them. Christians and Baha'is believe Jesus was born of a virgin. My complaint is that the writer of Mattthew took Isaiah 7:14 out of context. He completely disregards the context of what the "sign" in Isaiah was supposed to be about. And disregards the rest of the verses that tell us about this child. Both Baha'is and Christians are okay with taking this one verse and making it a prophecy about Jesus.

Another thing I'm taking a look at is the prediction of "entry by troops". Baha'is expect masses of people to join up. When I was around Baha'is in the 70's, I went with them on "mass teaching" trips to Indian Reservations. I don't know of any that were very successful, maybe a couple of new people. Here's what I've found so far...
Shoghi Effendi used the term in a letter written in July 1953. Referring to the influx of new Bahá’ís through the efforts of the community in the opening months of the Ten Year Crusade he wrote:

"This flow, moreover, will presage and hasten the advent of the day which, as prophesied by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, will witness the entry by troops of peoples of divers nations and races into the Bahá’í world—a day which, viewed in its proper perspective, will be the prelude to that long-awaited hour when a mass conversion on the part of these same nations and races, and as a direct result of a chain of events, momentous and possibly catastrophic in nature, and which cannot as yet be even dimly visualized, will suddenly revolutionize the fortunes of the Faith, derange the equilibrium of the world, and reinforce a thousandfold the numerical strength as well as the material power and the spiritual authority of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh."

In an October 1963 letter the Universal House of Justice noted that entry by troops had begun to take place:

"We stand now upon the threshold of the second epoch of ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá’s Divine Plan, with the outposts of the Cause established in the remotest corners of the earth, and having already witnessed the beginnings of that entry into the Faith by troops promised by the Master Himself."

The Universal House of Justice also stated that entry by troops had begun to take place during the Ten Year Crusade in letters released in 1964, 1965, and 1966, and later specified that Africa was where entry by troops had taken place during the Ministry of the Guardian.

In 1971 the Universal House of Justice reported that entry by troops was occurring in many parts of the world, and in 1974 it noted that the development of Local Spiritual Assemblies was required to give the Faith to capacity to cope with entry by troops.[9] In 1976 the Universal House of Justice advised the Bahá’ís of Africa that the process of entry by troops needed to be accelerated on the continent.[10]

In 1981 the Universal House of Justice specified that Africa had experienced entry by troops, and in 1987 it stated that entry by troops had occurred in Africa, Latin America, Asia, and the Pacific. In 1989 the Universal House of Justice named Bolivia, Bangladesh, Haiti, India, Liberia, Peru, the Philippines, and Taiwan as countries where entry by troops was taking place.

The Universal House of Justice also called for the international Bahá’í to systematically approach advancing the process:

"At Riḍván 1996, the Bahá’ís of the world will embark on a global enterprise aimed at one major accomplishment: a significant advance in the process of entry by troops. This is to be achieved through marked progress in the activity and development of the individual believer, of the institutions, and of the local community. That an advance in this process depends on the progress of all three of these intimately connected participants is abundantly clear. The next four years must witness a dramatic upsurge in effective teaching activities undertaken at the initiative of the individual. Thousands upon thousands of believers will need to be aided to express the vitality of their faith through constancy in teaching the Cause and by supporting the plans of their institutions and the endeavors of their communities."
I wonder how that's going for them? Hmmm? Sounds like things are going great!

Mass teaching began in the rural area of Madhya Pradesh among the Hindu population. In 1961 there were 850 Bahá’ís; in 1963 87,000; by 1973 nearly 400,000; and by 1987 about two million. In 1983 45 per cent of all local spiritual assemblies were in India.

1970 - early 1971 Over 20,000 Afro-Americans from the rural areas of the south-eastern United States became Bahá’ís.

1988 Jun Over 100,000 people, including large numbers of women, youth and families, became Bahá’ís in Uttar Pradesh, India.

1988 26 Nov - 4 Dec Over a thousand people became Bahá’ís in Bolivia during a teaching project. A later report indicated that over 2,000 people had become Bahá’ís.

1995 Aug More than 7,000 people became Bahá'ís in Haiti in two weeks.
Of course, these numbers are questionable... Here's the discrepancy in the numbers in the U.S.
Bahais claim that there are 1,75,000 Baha’is in US. But the official census says something else. The official census of United States says that “there were 28,000 Baha’is in US in 1990, then in 2001 it went up to 84,000 (entry by troops?) then again in 2008 it dropped down to 49000 (exodus by troops!)”.​

The Baha'is say...
India became the largest Bahá’í community in the world in 2000 after less than a century of mass teaching, with an official Bahá’í population of between 1.7 million to over 2 million.
What it sounds like is that they are out to convert as many people as possible. Yet, some Baha'is say they aren't. And that's another problem, which Baha'i is telling the truth?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Yes, to all of your post.
Bahai says that it takes no part in politics of today, and almost greets mega wars with 'Truly, our Prophet told us about this!', but of course Bahai is wishing to become a governing theocracy, which is mega ultimate politics.

And if it should ever arrive there its armies and policing forces would be worldwide, vast and all powerful. Only then the world would discover the true nature of Bahai.

Too late.
I was wondering why they don't get involved in civil disobedience protests? Like they could form a human roadblock around Kyiv. That would be impressive. It would make the Baha'i Faith world renowned.
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I was wonder why they don't get involved in civil disobedience protests? Like they could form a human roadblock around Kyiv. That would be impressive. It would make the Baha'i Faith world renowned.

We do not get involved in Civil Disobedience.

There are a large amount of Baha'i in Ukraine and they will be doing and helping in any way they can.

As would any loyal citizens that pursue justice.

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The claim is not justification for the claim. That's circular logic.
I never said that the claim justifies the claim. In fact, over and over and over again I have said that the claim is separate from the evidence that supports the claim.
Given that people can only get the benefit from that by accepting Jesus as their lord and saviour, I would say that we DO need to hear that message.

Oh wait, that's one of those bits you have decided doesn't matter, isn't it?
Everyone in the world has already heard the gospel message and once we have heard that message we do not need to keep hearing it over and over and over and over again.

I never said it does not matter. Baha'is are required to believe in Jesus and we believe He was a Savior, although not for the same reason Christians believe that. We don't believe Jesus saved is from the original sin of Adam and Eve because we don't believe they were real people who committed a sin. 30: ADAM AND EVE

Since Baha’is do not believe in original sin, there was no penalty to pay for that. Therein lies the difference between Christianity and the Baha’i Faith beliefs. Since we all have a higher noble spiritual nature and a lower selfish material nature (sinful nature) Jesus saved us from our lower material nature by giving us His teachings that, if followed, free us from the chains of bondage to our physical nature and the material world. The cross sacrifice was a symbol of detachment and self-denial, the example we are to follow. The remission of sins is the remission of our sinful nature that intervenes between us and God.
Didn't Jesus also preach this?

John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Jesus taught that we are to love one another but Jesus did not teach the unity of mankind. Unity of mankind would not have been possible 2000 years ago when Jesus walked the earth because the whole world had not even been discovered and people all over the world were certainly not connected, as we are now. Religion and Social Evolution

The human race needs more than the message that we are to love one another, that is old news. Baha'u'llah came to bring justice. "The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee." The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 3-4

Justice means punishing actions or words that are wrong and upholding things that are good. This helps ensure that wrongs will be ended and rights will be upheld thereby leading to a safer society for everyone. It would seem sometimes that children have a keen internal sense of justice.
What is justice and why is it important? - Quora

We can see why justice is so important if we look at what is going on in the world today. Is love going to solve any of these problems? Sure, we need to love one another, but we need more than that. We need justice.
Again, Jesus preached this unity of mankind as well.

John 17:20-21 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jesus prayed that someday we may be one but Jesus did not teach the unity of mankind. That is a new message, the message of Baha'u'llah.

“The Revelation associated with the Faith of Jesus Christ focused attention primarily on the redemption of the individual and the molding of his conduct, and stressed, as its central theme, the necessity of inculcating a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find any reference to the unity of nations or the unification of mankind as a whole. When Jesus spoke to those around Him, He addressed them primarily as individuals rather than as component parts of one universal, indivisible entity. The whole surface of the earth was as yet unexplored, and the organization of all its peoples and nations as one unit could, consequently, not be envisaged, how much less proclaimed or established.”
The Promised Day Is Come, p. 119
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
No, I am claiming that the Old Testament is not the claims of any deity.

So when you claimed the bible is true, you meant half of it was true? I'm getting dizzy at the turns and contradictions now.

It is human anthropomorphism about a deity. No deity was involved in writing the OT or the NT for that matter. They are the writings of fallible men.

And yet you believe it is true?
I am saying it is man-made scripture. Hopefully you can do the math.

All scripture is man made, that's a given. We haven't a single example of a book that is not man made.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
That is the great thing, the information is available to all people. That knowledge has been available since creation commenced. It is held back only to protect us from the consequences of its misuse,
Knowledge of atomic weapons has been available to everyone for millennia? I don't mind debating with people whose views are somewhat left field, but please try and make an effort.

but all knowledge was released in 1844.
Cool. So you will be able to explain how to build a functioning fusion reactor?

Baha'u'llah did not come for science but to show us how to achieve peace and unity.
But what about the claim that he invented the atomic bomb?

Thus that Message of peace and unity is clear,
And what is that message, exactly?

the warnings of the consequences of rejection are also made clear,
So what are they?

yet how the consequences will inflict mankind, are veiled to enable free will.
Ah, so they are not clear then.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
If you think it's not real human life sacrificed in a heavens changed. By one God earth changing into nothing the contradiction.

From nothing to nothing by man of science. You see every type of unnatural human suffering and we should be father's first spirit only.

Were not special humans quote Jesus is. Holding hands up crying at the sky. Yet you sob uncontrollably when family died. Lots of stigmata victims you ignore seeing them.

Only Jesus was special. Only bahuallah was special. Father told me don't think yourself special. So I didn't.

Are you all listening to father.....no.

If a man is just a man he only ever was our life equal.

Cry because your human brother is so evil he murders us by science causes.

A human who came direct out of the eternal body was not Jesus.

As where did God come from human theist. What was the first place. How can that first place still exist?

You all argue science. About God.

I said I don't believe in God but I believed in spirit.

And man just a human invented science. Theories about what science is. You build machines then use the term I am time shifting God.

Surely your mind then says he wants planet earth not to exist.

Then you ask why.

Answer he only wanted to be an eternal spirit. And is seeking it.

So you have to quote you personally physically cannot return to it.

Then he says but Jesus did.

Is the argument.

So his brother said Jesus became the image of man in the clouds heavenly.

Not any eternal at all.

So if I say the eternal is on the other side of water oxygen heavens.

The eternal is on the other side of space.

It places the eternal as the body creation separated from. Empty space the part of nothing where energy was burnt out gone completely.

Science says ludicrous the origin body was totally converted.

Spiritual humans know by fathers memories no it hadn't.

And our brother searched for it claiming humans are closest bodily to it.

Do you even actually take a good look at what is happening?

Will you keep lying trying to claim Jesus was our holy father who bodily already had been a long time de eased.

What about oh he murdered one of our fathers holy lives on earth out of humans DNA. As we had a human history one of many of the exact same DNA father.

Another human condition you ignore.

Why do you think a man with no name first said I was both a criminal Jesus and a man by Jesus for?

As a holy spiritual man theoried Phi. And the use of phi had already once destroyed all life on earth. Sealing the evidence as seals in the rock of God.

What a seal is...the royal stamp.

A man has to think for science. Yet a man's head isn't the states of science.

Brain burning prickling is what I endured as just a humans proof.

So do you expect the bodily life human sacrifice must be exact for you to believe our brother a scientist is satanic. Not even God?

Or do you agree you have to see the proof to believe again.

About our life having come from a holy place the eternal.

I don't see any of you arguing about the eternal. You argue about cosmic terms only.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Yes, He did.
As Bahaullah referenced where the Bab had Said that:


"Gracious God! In His Book, which He hath entitled “Qayyúmu’l-Asmá,”—the first, the greatest and mightiest of all books—He prophesied His own martyrdom. In it is this passage: “O thou Remnant of God! I have sacrificed myself wholly for Thee; I have accepted curses for Thy sake; and have yearned for naught but martyrdom in the path of Thy love. Sufficient Witness unto me is God, the Exalted, the Protector, the Ancient of Days!”
Likewise, in His interpretation of the letter “Há,” He craved martyrdom, saying: “Methinks I heard a Voice calling in my inmost being: ‘Do thou sacrifice the thing which Thou lovest most in the path of God, even as Ḥusayn, peace be upon him, hath offered up his life for My sake.’ And were I not regardful of this inevitable mystery, by Him, Who hath my being between His hands even if all the kings of the earth were to be leagued together they would be powerless to take from me a single letter, how much less can these servants who are worthy of no attention, and who verily are of the outcast… That all may know the degree of My patience, My resignation, and self-sacrifice in the path of God.”
That does not say "I will be martyred in seven years". It merely says that he "yearns for martyrdom". Hardly miraculous given the history of prophets claiming to be the new messiah.

Obviously the Bab knew He would be martyred just as Imam Hussein did.
Anyone blaspheming against the existing system knew they stood a good chance of persecution and death. hardly rocket science.

So, these evidences confirm it, for me.
Then I'm sorry but you are far too easily convinced. None of that amounts to "evidence" for any supernatural activity.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Theist of the past God he says is actually Satan O the fallen angels.

No says humans god is God not Satan as it's rock.

Okay a science argument only about human life survival on Rock.

God owning an evil volcanic Satan hell within. The sun hell in state.

Holy Satan said scientists was God.

That advice surely would change your minds wouldn't it?
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Knowledge of atomic weapons has been available to everyone for millennia? I don't mind debating with people whose views are somewhat left field, but please try and make an effort.

Cool. So you will be able to explain how to build a functioning fusion reactor?

But what about the claim that he invented the atomic bomb?

And what is that message, exactly?

So what are they?

Ah, so they are not clear then.

Given those answers. We have really very little to discuss. That's OK, we see this world differently, I have very little patience for this world.

I wish for you well and happy, Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So when you claimed the bible is true, you meant half of it was true? I'm getting dizzy at the turns and contradictions now.

And yet you believe it is true?
It is the fallacy of black and white thinking to say that the Bible must either be true or false.
I believe that some of it is true and some of it is false. There is a middle ground.

The Black-or-White Fallacy is the provision of only two alternatives in an argument when there are actually more options available. ... It's also sometimes called the Gray Fallacy, between black and white options, or the middle-ground fallacy, after a middle ground between two warring camps.
black and white fallacy examples in politics - nazwa.pl
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
A strange and wonderful instrument exists in the earth; but it is concealed from minds and souls. It is an instrument which has the power to change the atmosphere of the whole earth, and its infection causes destruction." – Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 183.

And one passage where it is mentioned to Viscount Arakawa, Japan’s Ambassador to Spain:

"Scientific discoveries have greatly increased material civilization. There is in existence a stupendous force, as yet, happily, undiscovered by man. Let us supplicate God, the Beloved, that this force be not discovered by science until Spiritual Civilization, i.e. the Kingdom, shall dominate the human mind. In the hands of men of lower material nature, this power would be able to destroy the whole earth." – Abdul'baha Japan Will Turn Ablaze, p. 51.

There are more passages, when looked at as a whole, predict what science subsequently found and then used in humanity.

Regards Tony
Okay, the bomb and Japan going ablaze. That's pretty specific. But we haven't arrived at the lessor peace yet. Those prophecies are in the past. So, there's more things that are going to happen. Which cities are prophesied to get bombed? What is going to happen in Ukraine? What will happen in the Islamic countries? What about China? What about Israel? What prophecies do Baha'is have that are still in the future?
 
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