What causes people to choose what they choose?

[KWED]

That is true but that does not mean God is forcing us to choose a certain thing.

And I (nor anyone else I have seen) has made that argument. It is just that whatever "choice" we make is inevitable, therefore the "free will" we used to make it is an illusion.

God knows what we will choose, that is all.

And by infallibly knowing, fixes that choice before we make it.

The argument you use is nothing but semantics, and of course is not an argument against us having a will.

Hardly, as the thousands of words written explaining it in detail, with examples and analogies clearly shows.

The thing is that we have a will and that being the case the omniscient God does not determine all things we do.

Mere question begging.

I say we have a will because I will things.

That may be just an illusion.

Do you say we do not have a will? and if so, why?

So you haven't read any of the arguments for god negating free will then? So how could you earlier dismiss them?

 

[RestlessSoul]

Indeed. So it is therefore fundamental in how we experience time and events which depend on time (ie. anything we experience with the concepts of "before" and "after".)

According to Einstein there is no "true nature of time" as it depends on variables like the position of the observer.

Our reality clearly is determined by our experience of time, by definition.

Hardly. It is merely accepting that our reality is bound by certain constraints. It is irrelevant to us how time may behave outside this universe (if it exists at all).

Not quite. Regardless of how sophisticated our understanding of time becomes, we can only experience it in one way.

Indeed. If the future is fixed and we cannot affect it, then free will is merely an illusion.
Therefore any god that produces this effect (whether by divine predestination, infallible omniscience or whatever) removes our free will. QED.

Yes, our reality is bound by constraints, some of which may be endemic to our condition, others of which may not be insuperable. So while it seems we can only experience time one way, it is perfectly conceivable that there are other levels or manifestations of consciousness which may experience time, space, and the pattern of causality, differently than we do.

It is arguable by the way, that all experience, and therefore all subjective understanding, depends on the position of the observer, and those variables the observer has access to. In other words, our understanding of the universe is defined by our perspective. A shift in position, it therefore follows, may show the world in a very different light.

 

[cladking]

The OP is about the paradox raised by an infallibly omniscient god. If said god already knows (before the universe even existed) every choice we are going to make, and his foreknowledge cannot be wrong, can we have free will?

"Position B: It is my contention that God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose."

We are endowed by whatever creator we had with free choice (smoke 'em if you got 'em). There are many names for this "free will" but it is best known among almost all people (smokers or not) as "consciousness".

Consciousness is the only gift anyone has to succeed. Through it one can remake the world and/ or himself to be better.

No doubt God or any such Benefactor would be most interested to see what anyone or anything does with free will. Life (which is consciousness) is a remarkably creative experiment.

 

[KWED]

You want God to impress you?

Hell yeah! I want smitings, revelations, parted seas, free food and wine - the lot.

 

[KWED]

Well, who knows?

I could posit that God is outside time and space, and therefore see things in the same way we see a story that it already unfolded.

I mean, what is the difference? We have a record of what happened in a different spacetime location, while God has a record of every spacetime location, because of His advantageous location. Does knowing what we will choose, entail that we did not really choose? Does knowing what Hitler chose, entail that Hitler did not choose? I honestly do not see how we can defend that on pure logical grounds.

So, I think that is a non-sequitur as big as a house.

If you are after free will, there are much more logically defensible arguments than that.

Ciao

- viole

If the future has been fixed as one particular outcome by a god infallibly knowing that future, then when that future happens, any "choices" involved are mere illusion. The future has to happen as it had already been foreseen.

The whole "but god exists in a different space time" is the real red herring as it has no bearing on the linear time universe we inhabit and experience. Especially with those religions where god's are also described in a linear fashion - eg. "recording our destiny 50,000 years before creation". And this is the core of this issue. Under such a system, how can we be responsible for our own destiny.

 

[KWED]

Yes, our reality is bound by constraints, some of which may be endemic to our condition, others of which may not be insuperable. So while it seems we can only experience time one way, it is perfectly conceivable that there are other levels or manifestations of consciousness which may experience time, space, and the pattern of causality, differently than we do.

It is arguable by the way, that all experience, and therefore all subjective understanding, depends on the position of the observer, and those variables the observer has access to. In other words, our understanding of the universe is defined by our perspective. A shift in position, it therefore follows, may show the world in a very different light.

So was that a "the future is fixed" or a "the future is unknowable"?

 

[KWED]

"Position B: It is my contention that God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose."

We are endowed by whatever creator we had with free choice (smoke 'em if you got 'em). There are many names for this "free will" but it is best known among almost all people (smokers or not) as "consciousness".

Consciousness is the only gift anyone has to succeed. Through it one can remake the world and/ or himself to be better.

No doubt God or any such Benefactor would be most interested to see what anyone or anything does with free will. Life (which is consciousness) is a remarkably creative experiment.

You have missed the point. We all know that the Abrahamic religions claim that god gave us free will. However, they also claim that god infallibly knows the future, and that in some cases god determines our destiny.
So, the issue is, how are these concepts compatible?

 

[cladking]

You have missed the point. We all know that the Abrahamic religions claim that god gave us free will. However, they also claim that god infallibly knows the future, and that in some cases god determines our destiny.
So, the issue is, how are these concepts compatible?

The nature of consciousness. Without it we'd be automatons carrying out God's will or as a cog in a clockwork reality.

 

[RestlessSoul]

So was that a "the future is fixed" or a "the future is unknowable"?

That was more of a “nothing is fixed, everything is connected, and only God can possibly know everything”.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Poor analogy.
Everything in the documentary has already happened. You don't know what he "will do". You know what he "did".

No, she's right.
Although we don't perceive that the future "has already happened", G-d explains to us in the Qur'an that it is has. It is just that we don't perceive it as such.

You take a literal reading and tell us it means that G-d wrote the future in a script Himself .. which contradicts free-will that G-d also explains. You accuse me of misunderstanding, when it is in fact you that doesn't understand.

 

[Sheldon]

If you had chosen A, God would have known you were going to choose A.
If you had chosen B, God would have known you were going to choose B.
If you had chosen C, God would have known you were going to choose C.

So you're saying your deity didn't know which one I would choose then, just that it knew I could choose.

That's not what was claimed previously though, which was that a deity knew exactly which choice I would make, and always had known. Thus if it knew before I made my choice that I would choose A (for example) then i could not have chosen other than A as this would make the deity wrong, and thus all other choices would merely be an illusion I perceive.

As muhammed isa said, "the future is set in stone", thus negating any notion of free will.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It is irrelevant to us how time may behave outside this universe (if it exists at all).

Not when discussing an omniscient G-d, it isn't.

 

[Sheldon]

the future "has already happened

G-d wrote the future in a script Himself

Both of which would rationally make any choices we perceive an illusion, and negate any notion of free will.

 

[Sheldon]

Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose

We are endowed by whatever creator we had with free choice

Which is it?

 

[muhammad_isa]

As muhammed isa said, "the future is set in stone", thus negating any notion of free will.

You are very quick to quote me .. I simply agreed that "the future is fixed". However, while you say it negates free-will, I say that it deos not .. the future is fixed by our choices.
The reason you cannot see this is because you don't believe that God exists outside of time in the first place !

 

[cladking]

Which is it?

I made the second statement and not the first.

It was made by the originator of the thread which is why it's in red and between quotes.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Both of which would rationally make any choices we perceive an illusion, and negate any notion of free will.

You misquoted me in post #173. I did NOT say that "G-d wrote the future in a script Himself". On the contrary .. it is ourselves that write it.

 

[cladking]

I can create a chaotic machine whose behavior I can not predict.

Reality is infinitely more complex and I seriously doubt that even its Creator can predict how it plays out. This is irrelevant however because we still have free will called consciousness.

 

[KWED]

Although we don't perceive that the future "has already happened", G-d explains to us in the Qur'an that it is has.

So we are merely following a predetermined and fixed path with no ability to alter either the final destination nor the stops along the way.
This is the principle of Qadr that you have been denying for weeks, as clearly explained by Umar ibn al-Kattab, amongst others. Glad you have finally seen the light.

You take a literal reading and tell us it means that G-d wrote the future in a script Himself

That's not me. That's what it say sin the Quran and sunnah. You just admitted this yourself!

which contradicts free-will that G-d also explains. You accuse me of misunderstanding, when it is in fact you that doesn't understand.

Ok. Explain how a fixed future, decreed by god, is compatible with free will.
Please try to avoid mere assertions or appeals to ridicule. Thanks.

 

[KWED]

Not when discussing an omniscient G-d, it isn't.

Once again, I will ask you to explain how god being outside this universe affects how his infallible omniscience and predestination does not interfere with free will.

And once again, you will avoid providing an answer.