What causes people to choose what they choose?

[KWED]

You are very quick to quote me .. I simply agreed that "the future is fixed". However, while you say it negates free-will, I say that it deos not .. the future is fixed by our choices.

Wrong! The future is fixed by god's infallible omniscience and predestination.
Without it, our choices would be unknown until they are made, so they could not be inevitable.

 

[KWED]

You misquoted me in post #173. I did NOT say that "G-d wrote the future in a script Himself". On the contrary .. it is ourselves that write it.

And yet Muhammad said that god writes our destiny in the preserved tablet 50,000 years before creation, when the earth does not even exist, never mind us making choices. Without Allah's infallible omniscience, there is no script.

 

[KWED]

I can create a chaotic machine whose behavior I can not predict.

Reality is infinitely more complex and I seriously doubt that even its Creator can predict how it plays out. This is irrelevant however because we still have free will called consciousness.

This thread is about an infallibly omniscient god's influence on free will, so your ill-informed version of god is irrelevant.
However, I agree that even if there is a god, if he does not infallibly know the future by some means, then we can have free will.

 

[muhammad_isa]

And once again, you will avoid providing an answer.

I have given the answer 100 times over.

You just stick to your "script".

 

[muhammad_isa]

Wrong! The future is fixed by god's infallible omniscience and predestination.
Without it, our choices would be unknown until they are made, so they could not be inevitable.

No sir. You can only accept the reality of this worldly life, and you don't believe in a God that can know our future .. you consider "it hasn't happened yet" to be the only reality, and will accept nothing more than what your limited senses tell you.

 

[viole]

If the future has been fixed as one particular outcome by a god infallibly knowing that future, then when that future happens, any "choices" involved are mere illusion. The future has to happen as it had already been foreseen.

That does not defeat free will. I wish it would, but it does not.

Whatever my free will will be, anyone in the future would have seen that. That does not entail that I did not freely choose.

The whole "but god exists in a different space time" is the real red herring as it has no bearing on the linear time universe we inhabit and experience. Especially with those religions where god's are also described in a linear fashion - eg. "recording our destiny 50,000 years before creation". And this is the core of this issue. Under such a system, how can we be responsible for our own destiny.

Well, sure, but that red herring is not so easy to defeat. If God is indeed beyond space and time, then He can see things in the same way we see things that already happened. There will be no difference between Him looking at what we chose, and us looking at what Hitler chose, in a WW2 documentary.

And what do you mean with "how can we be responsible for own destiny"?

Accordingly to theism you are. Because you chose your destiny. The fact that God knows what you will do, does not excuse you from choosing what you did.

Of course, that is all B.S. (Biblical Scholarship), but if we want to defeat free will. and how our choices are determined, then we need stronger arguments than "God knows it anyway".

Ciao

- viole

 

[cladking]

However, I agree that even if there is a god, if he does not infallibly know the future by some means, then we can have free will.

I don't know how to say this other than in the words I've been using. Whether there is or is not a God or Gods it is simply irrelevant to the nature of consciousness. If God made consciousness there is free will and if He did not or no God exists then there is still consciousness which is free.

If God knows the future I'm sure He also knows every single creature has free will and could have created a different world then what exists at any given time. Call it "faith" if you choose but I believe it is a defining property of "consciousness" whether it arose through creation or abiogenesis or any other means whatsoever. How can an individual not do as they choose? Are we to believe a bird or blade of grass is beholden to some human abstraction about the nature of choice?

Obviously not!



You are trying to turn this into a question of whether God exists or not, but it is a question of free will and I maintain free will/ life/ consciousness are all the exact same thing from different perspectives.

 

[KWED]

That does not defeat free will. I wish it would, but it does not.

It wouldn't except that by god fixing your future actions according to what he has foreseen, when the time comes to actually make your "choice" (rather than when god foresaw it in the distant past), there is only one option available and that choice is inevitable - even though you feel as if you freely choices from all the apparently available options.

Whatever my free will will be, anyone in the future would have seen that. That does not entail that I did not freely choose.

Don't understand this.

Well, sure, but that red herring is not so easy to defeat.

It is, because our universe, in which we exist and all events happen, is not outside space and time. We experience time in a linear fashion. And in his interactions with us, so must god. Even the descriptions in scripture show god following linear time. eg. "God wrote down our destinies 50,000 years before creation". Claimingthat god is outside space and time and doesn't interact with the universe and its linear time is mere assertion that contradicts religious scripture.

[/quote] If God is indeed beyond space and time,[/quote] Even this claim is suspect because there may not even be a "beyond space and time".

then He can see things in the same way we see things that already happened.

Can we change things that have already happened through free will? No.

There will be no difference between Him looking at what we chose, and us looking at what Hitler chose, in a WW2 documentary.

In which case, our life is like a film and we still have no more ability to alter its course than a character has of altering the narrative of a film that's already been made.

And what do you mean with "how can we be responsible for own destiny"?

The point of this problem, from Christian/Muslim perspective is how can we be held responsible for the course of our lives if we have no control over what happens. And if we can't then the concept of heaven and hell becomes incoherent.

Accordingly to theism you are. Because you chose your destiny. The fact that God knows what you will do, does not excuse you from choosing what you did.

Not the case under a god who not only infallibly knows the future but who also determines our destiny. Have et=you never heard the expression "it is god's will" or "god willing"?

Of course, that is all B.S. (Biblical Scholarship), but if we want to defeat free will. and how our choices are determined, then we need stronger arguments than "God knows it anyway".

The argument from infallible omniscience must be pretty strong because scholars have battled with it for centuries. Plus there is the little issue of god determining events by his will.
So with the two, it seems difficult how you can assert that free will is still beyond question.

 

[KWED]

I have given the answer 100 times over.

You just stick to your "script".

lol. No you haven't. You merely keep repeating the assertion that it does. You haven't explained how. So...
Once again, I will ask you to explain how god being outside this universe affects how his infallible omniscience and predestination does not interfere with free will.

If you have already provided this answer 100 times as you claim (and I've told you a million times, don't exaggerate), it should come easily to you.

 

[KWED]

you don't believe in a God that can know our future

No, but you do! So I am arguing from the assumption that such a god does exist, in order to show the contradiction involved.

you consider "it hasn't happened yet" to be the only reality, and will accept nothing more than what your limited senses tell you.

The future hasn't happened yet, in the context of our lives and the universe we live in. Not sure what point you are trying to make there.

 

[KWED]

I don't know how to say this other than in the words I've been using. Whether there is or is not a God or Gods it is simply irrelevant to the nature of consciousness. If God made consciousness there is free will and if He did not or no God exists then there is still consciousness which is free.

If God knows the future I'm sure He also knows every single creature has free will and could have created a different world then what exists at any given time. Call it "faith" if you choose but I believe it is a defining property of "consciousness" whether it arose through creation or abiogenesis or any other means whatsoever. How can an individual not do as they choose? Are we to believe a bird or blade of grass is beholden to some human abstraction about the nature of choice?

Obviously not!



You are trying to turn this into a question of whether God exists or not, but it is a question of free will and I maintain free will/ life/ consciousness are all the exact same thing from different perspectives.

No idea what your point is there.

 

[Trailblazer]

Awww come on, are you messing with me? I said it in the question, God (if he exists(I need a macro for this)) gives them the memories. He already knows what they did before they did it and I'm sure it's within his power to implant memories so why bother running the experiment.

Why would God want to implant memories of things that never happened to people? That would be akin to making a robot.
The experiment is not for God, it is for the people. The people don't know what God knows.

They don't have to do a thing, he already knows what they will do.

It does not matter what God knows, it only matters what we do. We have to do certain things to get to paradise.

Doesn't make sense. There must be some reason or purpose.

The reason is as I stated. God created us out of His love for us.
I have to wonder why God created animals though since God does not seem to give a **** about them. He just allows them to suffer and die even though they never did anything to deserve it because they are innocent.
If ever I was going to become an atheist it would be because God allows so much suffering and death, particularly of animals. Suffering and death of animals is not okay and all the religious apologetics in the world will never make it okay.

 

[Trailblazer]

Maybe "god" wanted you to realize how illogical your believe in determinism is?

I do not believe in determinism, I believe in free will.

 

[Trailblazer]

That doesn't go well together with an omniscient god.

Why?

 

[Trailblazer]

With perfect knowledge and perfect power, God can't escape the fact that the universe MUST be EXACTLY as [he] intended when he made it. And there's nothing we can do about it.

It was all created as God intended it to be, but humans were given free will and then all hell broke loose.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The future hasn't happened yet, in the context of our lives and the universe we live in..

So what?
God does not live in the universe, yet you tell us what God can do and cannot do, as if He does.

 

[Trailblazer]

Correct, otherwise watching a documentary about young Hitler, and knowing perfectly well what he will do, would entail he had no free will to do what he did.

I never found the arguments "God knows what we will do, ergo we have no free will" particularly compelling.

ciao

- viole

I am sure glad to see that some atheists think logically.

 

[Heyo]

Why?

I thought we agreed that perfect knowledge of the future can only exist in a deterministic universe?

As I said above, a deterministic universe is like a book. The characters act as the author has them act.
A universe with free will is like a role playing game. The players can act within the given story, changing the story as they go. Nobody, not even the master of the game, can know how the story will unwind.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you're saying your deity didn't know which one I would choose then, just that it knew I could choose.

No, that is not what I said. God has always known which one you would choose.

Trailblazer said: ↑
If you had chosen A, God would have known you were going to choose A.
If you had chosen B, God would have known you were going to choose B.
If you had chosen C, God would have known you were going to choose C.

That's not what was claimed previously though, which was that a deity knew exactly which choice I would make, and always had known.

That is exactly what I am claiming.

Thus if it knew before I made my choice that I would choose A (for example) then i could not have chosen other than A as this would make the deity wrong, and thus all other choices would merely be an illusion I perceive.

No, that is not what I am claiming. You could have chosen A, B, or C.

If you had chosen A, the deity would have known you were going to choose A.
If you had chosen B, the deity would have known you were going to choose B.
If you had chosen C, the deity would have known you were going to choose C

As muhammed isa said, "the future is set in stone", thus negating any notion of free will.

The future is set in stone only after we make a choice and that choice becomes an event.
I just explained that to @Tiberius on the other thread.

Nothing is locked in until it actually happens. Let's say a man called John decided to murder his wife. Once John commits that murder the choice to commit the murder has been made. John chose to murder his wife and committed the act. That event is now locked in. God always knew that John would murder his wife but if John changed his mind at the last minute and decided NOT to murder his wife, God would have known John was going to change his mind.

 

[KWED]

So what?

So your claim about god being "outside space and time" is meaningless because this universe and our lives, and the time we exist within - are all within and part of this universe. And it is within this context that we have free will or not. Not "outside spacetime".

God does not live in the universe,

You need to stop anthropomorphising god like this. He isn't a person who lives somewhere.
However, God must exist within our spacetime, because he is everywhere apparently.

yet you tell us what God can do and cannot do, as if He does.

Wrong again. I have never laid restrictions or constraints on god's abilities. It is usually the apologists who do that. Like you, just now, claiming that he doesn't live in our universe. We don't even know it there even is a "not part of spacetime" for him to exist in.
Being omnipotent, I assume god can do whatever he wants, including living as a man Palestine in the early 1st century. Or as a homeless man under a railway arch in East London (well, he claimed to be god anyway).