What causes people to choose what they choose?

[Trailblazer]

God does not live in the universe

Interesting, I never heard that before... There is something outside the universe?

Then where does God live? Is heaven outside the universe?
I cannot for the life of me locate God with my GPS tracker.

 

[Trailblazer]

I thought we agreed that perfect knowledge of the future can only exist in a deterministic universe?

No, I never said that.

Predetermination is a separate subject from free will. Some things are fated/predestined by God and those are predetermined. Many things happen to us in this world that were not chosen by us and we are compelled to endure them (e.g., death, sickness, job losses, injuries and misfortunes). I believe those are fated/predestined by God.

If something is predetermined it is predetermined by God, and in that case it is not subject to human free will. We cannot choose from different options if something was predetermined by God. We have to do what God has predetermined, whatever that is.

I believe that SOME things that happen to us are predetermined (fated/predestined to happen) but everything else is subject to free will, so it is a choice.

Predetermination and free will are mutually exclusive yet both exist.

As I said above, a deterministic universe is like a book. The characters act as the author has them act.

I do not believe that this is the case.

A universe with free will is like a role playing game. The players can act within the given story, changing the story as they go. Nobody, not even the master of the game, can know how the story will unwind.

This is what I believe is the case. Humans are the players who can act within the given story, creating the story as they go. God knows how the whole the story will unwind because God is all-knowing.

 

[Trailblazer]

But there aren't any variables as god can only know one possible outcome, and he has always known it. And that knowledge never changes.

That's true. There is only one possible outcome, but that does not mean you cannot make more than one choice. You can make more than one choice, but whatever choice you make will be the ONE CHOICE that God has always known you would make.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So your claim about god being "outside space and time" is meaningless because this universe and our lives, and the time we exist within - are all within and part of this universe. And it is within this context that we have free will or not. Not "outside spacetime".

What are you trying to say here?
Are you saying that if G-d knows what we will do in the future, [because for Him it has already happened] .. and He "pops" in to the universe, this somehow changes things?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Interesting, I never heard that before... There is something outside the universe?

Then where does God live? Is heaven outside the universe?
I cannot for the life of me locate God with my GPS tracker.

God is not a physical person..
He doesn't "live" anywhere, as in an actual geographical place.

 

[Heyo]

Predetermination and free will are mutually exclusive yet both exist.

That seems perfectly reasonable for me, yet ...

God knows how the whole the story will unwind because God is all-knowing.

You are contradicting yourself, here.

I think we do agree that some things are predetermined, at least you said so. Things on earth fall accelerated with 9.81 m/s², entropy in a closed system never diminishes, laws of nature things.

You also said that some things are not predestined, like choices we can make. These are the things which can't be known beforehand in an universe with free choice.
So even god doesn't know them, ergo his foreknowledge is not perfect. It can be accurate on everything* except the choices we make and our choices may not be important for the general story.

* from a purely philosophical point of view, scientifically there is also the problem of computability.

 

[Trailblazer]

Suppose you were shown a script of your life written out before your birth by your creator that you only learned about recently and are now reading. Your past is correct in every detail. The script even has you reading the script at one point, so you realize that you have reached the present in this timeline. What do you think about your free will? Did you have any? It sure felt like it. You had desires over the years and acted on many of them.

Yes, I had free will and acted upon my desires. God has always known what those choices would be because God is all knowing.

The script is the Tablet of Fate. Some things in that Tablet were things that happened to me that were predestined by God and some things were choices I made of my own free will.

That's free will, right? But an omniscient creator knew every choice you would make before you did, and could write it before you were born. Do you still feel like you're the captain of the ship of self, or are you an observer watching the inevitable play out?

The omniscient God knew every choice I would ever make before I did and knew even before I was born. I am not an observer, I am on the ship, deciding where the ship will go. I am the captain of the ship of self because I can make my own choices, choices God has always known I would make. God is the observer, although sometimes God guides the ship.

According to my beliefs, without God the ship could not move at all.

"Also the inaction or the movement of man depend upon the assistance of God. If he is not aided, he is not able to do either good or evil. But when the help of existence comes from the Generous Lord, he is able to do both good and evil; but if the help is cut off, he remains absolutely helpless. This is why in the Holy Books they speak of the help and assistance of God. So this condition is like that of a ship which is moved by the power of the wind or steam; if this power ceases, the ship cannot move at all. Nevertheless, the rudder of the ship turns it to either side, and the power of the steam moves it in the desired direction. If it is directed to the east, it goes to the east; or if it is directed to the west, it goes to the west. This motion does not come from the ship; no, it comes from the wind or the steam.

In the same way, in all the action or inaction of man, he receives power from the help of God; but the choice of good or evil belongs to the man himself."
Some Answered Questions, pp. 249-250

You can read the whole chapter here: 70: FREE WILL

Suppose you look ahead and see the script for tomorrow and the rest of your future. Would you be able to look ahead to tomorrow and say that you won't make that mistake the script shows you making? If you could, if you could choose to go off script, is your creator still omniscient? If you can't, do you have free will?

All that is a moot point because I cannot look ahead and see the script for tomorrow and the rest of my future. That would be like cheating because if I could see the future I would know the mistakes not to make and avoid making those mistakes. God does not want that. God wants us to live one day at a time and do what we believe is right, making our choices as we go along. If we make certain mistakes we learn from those mistakes. If we live well we learn from that too, we learn to keep living that way.

Would you want to see the script of your future? I know I would not want to see it. Of course it could go either way, because it could be good or it could be bad, but I am not one to live in the future. The present is difficult enough to navigate.

All we know is that we have desires that we like to make happen and often do. We don't know what role consciousness plays in the process beyond observer. It might not be the source of the desires or the decision to make them happen. Neural processes outside of consciousness and responsible for consciousness may be the source of those urges, and we merely notice ourselves getting thirsty and getting a drink, thinking that that was our idea because nobody else is their to claim authorship, although we don't recall deciding to be thirsty, just to getting a drink. We weren't free to choose our will - the desire to get a drink - just our behavior, and even that is not so certain.

Since psychology is my other hat I like what @Evangelicalhumanist said so I saved it in a Word document for future reference. He said:

"I believe that our unconscious brain makes many of our choices, as-it-were "for us." But since it is our own unconscious, it is still us. Not being conscious of making the decision doesn't mean that it isn't "you" making it. (In the same way, while you might be unconscious under anaesthetic during a surgery, and are not aware of the procedure going on, it is still happening to you.)

But further, I believe that our conscious (and unconscious) minds reflect on the choices thus made, and that reflection feeds back into the system and modifies the thousands of "modules" that make us who we are, so that the choices we make in future -- even if still made by our unconscious selves -- have been at least informed by what has happened before. In other words, how we feel about what we've done helps to make us who we become, and therefore helps to mold our future choices." #22

If by free will all that we mean is that we experience desires and act on them, then yes, that happens, but we cannot tell from that whether we actually had a choice or it only felt like it.

If we made a choice and acted upon it then we can tell that we made a choice because the thing we chose happened.

How could we possibly decide if we were free to choose otherwise, or it only felt like it? I don't think we can.

I agree. I do not think we can know if we could have chosen otherwise. We can only know what we chose, that we were free to choose that, since we chose it.

 

[Trailblazer]

God is not a physical person..
He doesn't "live" anywhere, as in an actual geographical place.

Yeah I know. I was just trying to be funny.
Still, sometimes I wonder where He is.
It is not because I want to see God. I would never want to see God, because I would surely perish!

 

[John53]

Why would God want to implant memories of things that never happened to people? That would be akin to making a robot.

Which is the point I'm trying to make and I'm beginning to think you're deliberately trying to avoid. If your system is fact, life is pointless.

The experiment is not for God, it is for the people. The people don't know what God knows.

There's an awful lot of people in this thread claiming to know what god knows.

It does not matter what God knows, it only matters what we do. We have to do certain things to get to paradise.

And that's how religions control people. The promise of the fairytale ending.

The reason is as I stated. God created us out of His love for us.

Never mind... like I said above I think you're deliberately trying to avoid what I asked, it's so many posts back I'm beginning to forget myself.

I have to wonder why God created animals though since God does not seem to give a **** about them. He just allows them to suffer and die even though they never did anything to deserve it because they are innocent.
If ever I was going to become an atheist it would be because God allows so much suffering and death, particularly of animals. Suffering and death of animals is not okay and all the religious apologetics in the world will never make it okay.

We agree on the animal thing but that would not make you an atheist, only a disbelief in the existence of any god can make you an atheist.

 

[John53]

Consideration of the manner in which we experience time, is implicit in any discussion about free will, determinism or causality. The linear experience of time is fundamental to our human perspective, but that does not necessarily mean that the true nature of time is linear. Our experience is framed by three spatial dimensions, and one temporal, and the arrow of time for us always points in one direction. We assume that reality is defined by our perception of it, but this is surely a solipsism, a symptom of our arrogance. In defining time by the manner in which we experience it, we effectively place ourselves at the centre of the temporal universe, in the same way our ancestors placed themselves at the centre of the spatial universe. For us, the future hasn't happened yet, so we can effect it; but this may be a false assumption dictated by perspective.

I can only base my thoughts on what is currently known. None of us can read the future yet.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are contradicting yourself, here.

I think we do agree that some things are predetermined, at least you said so. Things on earth fall accelerated with 9.81 m/s², entropy in a closed system never diminishes, laws of nature things.

You also said that some things are not predestined, like choices we can make. These are the things which can't be known beforehand in an universe with free choice.
So even god doesn't know them, ergo his foreknowledge is not perfect. It can be accurate on everything* except the choices we make and our choices may not be important for the general story.

To be clear, I believe that some things that happen are predestined, not chosen by us. For example, in 2002 I lost my job because of budget cuts in my agency, and that was not my choice. People in top management who made certain decisions determined my destiny so I was laid off.

There are other things we can choose freely, like I could choose to stay with the agency and accept the job they offered me which was in another field and was a huge pay cut, or I could have chosen to quit the agency and look for another job.

What would happen as a result of these choices could not have been known by me beforehand, since no human can see into the future, so I cannot know what would happen in either case.

However, what I will choose and the result of my choice have always been known by God beforehand. God has perfect foreknowledge so God can see into what will be our future. From God's perspective everything that will ever happen in this material world has already happened, since God does not exist in time.

To sum up, God does know what our choices we will make and all the results of those choices because God has perfect foreknowledge, but we can never know what God knows so all we can do is life life one day at a time, making the best decisions that we can

 

[Heyo]

However, what I will choose and the result of my choice have always been known by God beforehand. God has perfect foreknowledge so God can see into what will be our future. From God's perspective everything that will ever happen in this material world has already happened, since God does not exist in time.

To sum up, God does know what our choices we will make and all the results of those choices because God has perfect foreknowledge, but we can never know what God knows so all we can do is life life one day at a time, making the best decisions that we can

Do you know what you are describing here? You may not call it so but it is determinism.

Do we agree that a free choice is one where you can do either A or B and if it was possible to go back in time you could make a different choice?

 

[Trailblazer]

Which is the point I'm trying to make and I'm beginning to think you're deliberately trying to avoid. If your system is fact, life is pointless.

My system has a point to it because it gives us a reason for for life on earth, including the joy and the suffering.
What would be the point of God implanting memories of things that never happened to people into their minds.

There's an awful lot of people in this thread claiming to know what god knows.

That's true, there are a couple of us, but we can only know what was revealed through the Messengers we believe in and that certainly is not everything.

And that's how religions control people. The promise of the fairytale ending.

The religions are not trying to control people, they are just trying to give you a chance to get to heaven. How fair would it be if we did not give you a roadmap and then expected you to find your own way?

Never mind... like I said above I think you're deliberately trying to avoid what I asked, it's so many posts back I'm beginning to forget myself.

You asked why God created us, what was the purpose of creating us and I answered with the only answer I have. God created us out of His love for us. God has no needs since God is fully self-sufficient and fully self-sustaining, so God does not need anything from us, including our love, but God loves us nonetheless even if we do not love Him.

We agree on the animal thing but that would not make you an atheist, only a disbelief in the existence of any god can make you an atheist.

I know that and since I cannot disbelieve I am kind of in between a rock and a hard place, stuck with these feelings about God I can do nothing about.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Why would God want to implant memories of things that never happened to people? That would be akin to making a robot.

I don't understand the robot arguments. Here, you are suggesting that if one could implant memories in us, it would make us robots. Usually, the claim is that if man didn't have free will, he'd be a robot. In what way? A robot is following an prescribed course of behavior, but it is also unconscious. If man were to discover that he also is following whatever is compelled by the connections in his unseen neural circuits, and that free will was an illusion, so what? Even if this is life as a robot, give me fifty more years of it.

The robot argument suggests that if one lost his free will, his life would be less human. What the person who questions if will is free is saying that if this life is deterministic, that's fine. If it turns out that it is, it always was that doesn't diminish the quality of the human experience.

If you choose to jump in front of a car, you will find out whether that choice was real or not .. or only "felt like it".

No, I won't. The comment you responded to was, "If by free will all that we mean is that we experience desires and act on them, then yes, that happens, but we cannot tell from that whether we actually had a choice or it only felt like it." No action or test can determine if the choice could have been otherwise at that moment short of revisiting that moment in the exact same state and choosing otherwise.

Actually, seeing somebody do that would strongly suggest that it wasn't a choice, that it was a compulsion that couldn't be overcome. Simply because other "choices" were physically possible and might have been what others did in similar circumstances, or even what this individual has done that was different in similar circumstances doesn't mean he has the means to choose any of them now. One simply cannot answer the question of whether this individual at that moment could have chosen differently.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you know what you are describing here? You may not call it so but it is determinism.

What God knows beforehand does not determine what happens so how is that determinism?

Do we agree that a free choice is one where you can do either A or B and if it was possible to go back in time you could make a different choice?

Yes, I can agree on that it is possible, although I cannot say we would have made a different choice.

 

[osgart]

No, I never said that.

Predetermination is a separate subject from free will. Some things are fated/predestined by God and those are predetermined. Many things happen to us in this world that were not chosen by us and we are compelled to endure them (e.g., death, sickness, job losses, injuries and misfortunes). I believe those are fated/predestined by God.

If something is predetermined it is predetermined by God, and in that case it is not subject to human free will. We cannot choose from different options if something was predetermined by God. We have to do what God has predetermined, whatever that is.

I believe that SOME things that happen to us are predetermined (fated/predestined to happen) but everything else is subject to free will, so it is a choice.

Predetermination and free will are mutually exclusive yet both exist.

I do not believe that this is the case.

This is what I believe is the case. Humans are the players who can act within the given story, creating the story as they go. God knows how the whole the story will unwind because God is all-knowing.

Perhaps we are in a bubble of time and God sees the whole of it from outside the bubble. Then God could interject in our now all along the way.
Thus altering our future course.

God knowing all landscapes of possibility, master of the conscious and unconscious mind, he knows all forms of thoughts that drive actions.

So perhaps there are strands of time that never happen nor are actualized. So God sees all potentialities and actualities of time and thus orchestrates his influence in our freedom.

So if the past, present, and future are equally real God works in all derivatives of time, and the active strand of time. Knowing the causes and effects of everything, knowing all uncaused events as well, God orchestrates the landscape of possibility to carefully come out with the best possible outcome.

God of course knows all possible ends and lengths. That would make God omnipresent in ways unforseen.

So here we are in a sea of potentialities and limitations where one actuality manifests for us. And all the potentialities are mirror reflections from the now we are located in. Every potentiality is a looking glass into possibility.

So since there is nothing new under the sun, God knows everything of computers and AI as well.

God being of infinite mind decides to influence, and not predetermine outcomes so that we all can grow spiritually. God knowing our motivations thoroughly and our capabilities, God gives knowledge through Messengers to alter the flow of now through the sea of time to the best outcomes available.

God decides one rule and that is to never interfere in the freedoms that each living being has by nature. The reason for that is the key then. God makes the rule not to interfere in stopping crime, war, and other horrors because somehow that would make things worse for us in the long run. And perhaps humans by nature want to live life totally separate from God, and God granted that wish.

Iow, I have no clue!

 

[Heyo]

What God knows beforehand does not determine what happens so how is that determinism?

What God knows does not determine what happens, what god knows is the consequence of determinism.

Yes, I can agree on that it is possible, although I cannot say we would have made a different choice.

In a deterministic universe we could not have made a different choice.

This is a deterministic universe:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

with time flowing from left to right.
This is a universe with free will:

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ----------------------------------------------------
---------------------{
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ----------------------------------------------------
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . A
At time A a free decision is made and we have two potential world lines. Before time A, no entity can know in which timeline it will land. If it knew, there would be no point A and no free choice.
(Assuming linear time, that is.)

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't understand the robot arguments. Here, you are suggesting that if one could implant memories in us, it would make us robots. Usually, the claim is that if man didn't have free will, he'd be a robot. In what way? A robot is following an prescribed course of behavior, but it is also unconscious. If man were to discover that he also is following whatever is compelled by the connections in his unseen neural circuits, and that free will was an illusion, so what?

I understand your point since our choices are greatly influenced by our unconscious mind, but I think we can strive to live as consciously as possible and base our decisions on what we are conscious of, the rational part of our mind, rather than irrational thoughts and feelings from the past that are in our unconscious mind. As humans we have that capability to make an effort to change, but if we were preprogrammed robots we could not do that.

Even if this is life as a robot, give me fifty more years of it.

I would not want fifty more years of life in this world unless I knew it was going to get better, but I guess if I thought this life was all there is I would have a different perspective.

Then again the last fifty years of our lives are likely to be more difficult unless we are one of the lucky few who have good physical and cognitive health.

The robot argument suggests that if one lost his free will, his life would be less human. What the person who questions if will is free is saying that if this life is deterministic, that's fine. If it turns out that it is, it always was that doesn't diminish the quality of the human experience.

That is true, especially if your human experience has been of good quality, but not everyone has the same life experience, and it is not something that is as simple as using free will to make different choices. Some things about us cannot be changed and even things that can be changed are not always easy or even possible to change. Such is the nature of free will, it is very constrained.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Iow, I have no clue!

I don't know about that .. you seem to be quite thoughtful on the subject.

 

[muhammad_isa]

No, I won't...

Well, I hope you don't.
I think it is wrong to act on an evil impulse .. but I can see how it could happen.