Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?

[Sheldon]

I read the percentage of Americans who have had mental issues in their life times is 51%.

Research from the National Institute for Mental health, HERE says it's just 20%. Maybe you should fact check what you read? FYI that would make it lower than your claim for Mexico.

 

[Sheldon]

An article last week mentioned the huge number of guns in the Phillipines, but few mass killings. Why? Because The Phillipines has good social cohesion and this thing called 'shame' which is missing in the West - shame you bring to your name and your family.

While mass shootings are rare compared to the US, your blanket assertion is way off.

"homicides involving firearms are a fact of life in the Philippines. Hitmen can be hired for as little as $300. In fact, the Philippines is one of the deadliest places in Asia when it comes to firearm homicides. The country saw over 1,200 intentional killings using firearms in 2019. This meant guns killed one in every 100,000 people in the Southeast Asian country—one of the highest rates in Asia. (In 2020, the comparable figure for the U.S. is four.)"

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You need to fact check things, and look beyond the headlines which are often too facile to base such sweeping claims on.

 

[Polymath257]

Oh, ok. I am glad you live in a world that is decreasing in toxicity as the bible fades into irrelevance.

As belief in a vengeful deity has decreased, overall toxicity has also decreased. I would suggest the book 'The Better Angels of our Nature' by Pinker. it goes over a number of ways that violence and general nastiness has decreased over the last few centuries.

 

[sojourner]

Nor do I see any nuances that I didn't mention in my earlier post. And I don't find in the context anything that demands your interpretation.

Nor do you appear to have that example of ἀσθενέω clearly in context meaning 'I am depressed / melancholic'.

ROFLMAO.

OK. “I don’t find” and “I don’t see” being the operative terms in your post. You really don’t see how weakness is described as a (spiritual) sickness, in light of the rest of the passage, and how prayer alleviates that depression? You do know that translation isn’t transliteration and that translated terms aren’t the best way to understand texts written in foreign languages? Which is why I went to the Greek term and the surrounding context.

Heck, even Strong’s identifies the Greek term as “weak,” not “sick.”

The surrounding context refers to faith and the will to live out one’s Christian life. That certainly doesn’t include concepts such as the flu or a bad liver. It does include concepts such as weakness of will and depression of the spirit.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No they weren't, that's just your subjective opinion, which differs from that of many other theistic claims about the efficacy of intercessory prayer.

Odds are that the tests were designed with the cooperation of those that believe in woo woo. True believers often are so sure of their beliefs that they will subject them to proper testing. It is only when the testing shows that their beliefs are false that they turn on the testing procedure.

The worst real world example that I can think of is the Shroud of Turin. A group of scientists all agreed on protocols, where to sample from etc.. But when the results told us that it was a fake at least one scientist went back on his word. He supposedly found some threads from his testing that dated differently. The problem was that one of the protocols that they all agreed to was that of no private sampling.


That means we know that he lied. The only question is when.

 

[sojourner]

If there is no god and all change comes from within, how is that the same as change coming from god?

It’s not. To your understanding and perspective. It is, however, to mine. And since we’re talking about prayer (which is defined as communicating with the divine), we should make use of a perspective in which that tool is operative. Otherwise, you’re simply arguing why oranges can’t drive cars.

 

[PruePhillip]

As belief in a vengeful deity has decreased, overall toxicity has also decreased. I would suggest the book 'The Better Angels of our Nature' by Pinker. it goes over a number of ways that violence and general nastiness has decreased over the last few centuries.

Certainly not my reading of our society.

 

[Polymath257]

How do you MEASURE that?
The world gets 'better' due to science and technology, ie cheap food, vaccines, electricity, Internet etc..
But at the same time this tech is erroding social fabrics and traditional values. And it's been going on for several centuries now. We have replaced one thing with another. A cute cartoon I remember was an old man telling his grandson that one we will all be replaced by a machine - next panel grandpa is gone and in his spot is a TV. Bowling Alone is a good book on his phenomonen.

And during those centuries, how have overall levels of violence changed? How have the lives of the 'average' person changed? How have education, health, overall safety, etc changed?

I would wager that almost nobody today would want to go back 300 years and live in the conditions of that time. Even the nobility were worse off then than the average person today in many ways.

Traditional values were generally harsh, brutal, and violent. Social fabrics were kept from unraveling by threats and allowing very little personal freedom.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It’s not. To your understanding and perspective. It is, however, to mine. And since we’re talking about prayer (which is defined as communicating with the divine), we should make use of a perspective in which that tool is operative. Otherwise, you’re simply arguing why oranges can’t drive cars.

Who do you think designed the tests that were run on prayers? Skeptics were probably involved, but only to the point of keeping them from doing meaningless tests.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Certainly not my reading of our society.

But that appears to be highly biased. For example you acted as if putting people in a nursing home was a bad sign. I have worked in nursing homes and most that live there need the additional care and medical treatments available at a nursing home. Life without that care would tend to be much shorter.

 

[PruePhillip]

And during those centuries, how have overall levels of violence changed? How have the lives of the 'average' person changed? How have education, health, overall safety, etc changed?

I would wager that almost nobody today would want to go back 300 years and live in the conditions of that time. Even the nobility were worse off then than the average person today in many ways.

Traditional values were generally harsh, brutal, and violent. Social fabrics were kept from unraveling by threats and allowing very little personal freedom.

Sure things are better, I love to point out to people the incredible invention of the inner spring mattress - not even a monarch had such a thing. And air conditioning? You didn't have it, you never believed such a thing was possible. But I am talking about the existential issue of human values.

We certainly have changed a lot of things on their head, haven't we?

 

[Polymath257]

Certainly not my reading of our society.

It is easy to look at the past through rose colored glasses. A more objective look at the whole of society (as opposed to TV shows that have never shown reality) may give a different view.

 

[Polymath257]

Sure things are better, I love to point out to people the incredible invention of the inner spring mattress - not even a monarch had such a thing. And air conditioning? You didn't have it, you never believed such a thing was possible. But I am talking about the existential issue of human values.

We certainly have changed a lot of things on their head, haven't we?
View attachment 63799

Given that 150 years ago, we had public executions and people saw it as good fun, women weren't allowed to own property or vote, people of color were routinely hunted down and killed, and the US committed genocide of those who lived here originally, I might suggest those values have improved in a number of ways.

 

[blü 2]

“I don’t find” and “I don’t see” being the operative terms in your post.

Yup. You failed completely

to offer any evidence that your view was superior to all those modern translators I showed you

and you haven't offered anything that displaces my accurate observation that 'sick' is a perfectly valid translation of the Greek,

and you don't have any clear example of the Greek meaning 'depressed', the meaning you argue for.

Things are not so just because you want them to be so.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sure things are better, I love to point out to people the incredible invention of the inner spring mattress - not even a monarch had such a thing. And air conditioning? You didn't have it, you never believed such a thing was possible. But I am talking about the existential issue of human values.

We certainly have changed a lot of things on their head, haven't we?
View attachment 63799

Wow! Why didn't you admit that you do not know of the evidence that supports transsexualism? There is physical evidence that supports their beliefs.

 

[PruePhillip]

Given that 150 years ago, we had public executions and people saw it as good fun, women weren't allowed to own property or vote, people of color were routinely hunted down and killed, and the US committed genocide of those who lived here originally, I might suggest those values have improved in a number of ways.

What was the general feeling of Americans towards morality 150 years ago? I read somewhere that in the 1850-1900 in what was the 'wild west' there were about a dozen bank robberies. Why so few? Lots of complex issues, such as federal govt expansion, but one ignored in Western movies is the fact that these settlers and pioneers were religious people. And they didn't want slavery in the west. Sure, you will find someone who will break this formula - that's natural, but we simply don't understand what place religion played in our past. Take the numbers of police in our community, now multiply it by four for security personnel, and add the security cameras etc.. Past generations did not need this. There far less crime in old Calcutta than any city in America.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Given that 150 years ago, we had public executions and people saw it as good fun, women weren't allowed to own property or vote, people of color were routinely hunted down and killed, and the US committed genocide of those who lived here originally, I might suggest those values have improved in a number of ways.

Aahhh . . . the Good Old Days! Or at least they would be for me since I am white and male. For my sister in law and her family, probably not so much. It is always easy to romanticize the past if one would have been one of the haves rather than one of the have nots.

 

[sojourner]

So if someone claims "I have cancer of the pancreas" or "I have Covid", doctors shouldn't do any tests. They should just accept the patients' claims about the source of their feeling of unwellness?

Apples to oranges. One doesn’t go to a doctor for spiritual advice. I’m
He does go to a doctor for physical illnesses. That’s the sort of “interior” stuff I’m talking about: feelings, emotions, sense of well being, sense of connectedness.

 

[PruePhillip]

Wow! Why didn't you admit that you do not know of the evidence that supports transsexualism? There is physical evidence that supports their beliefs.

Sure, I am all for transexuals. You know that 'glass ceiling' feminists talk about? Well why not take your all white male executive team and at 9am each day declare half are women and half are black. And revert back to white male at 5pm? Love it. And seeing men dominate women's sports is good too. Watched a guy last week claim he was a 'woman' and bash a female champion MMA fighter bloodied and nearly senseless. More power to him, I mean, her.

Love how Jesus put it, 'Every generation is right in its own eyes.'

 

[Polymath257]

Apples to oranges. One doesn’t go to a doctor for spiritual advice. I’m
He does go to a doctor for physical illnesses. That’s the sort of “interior” stuff I’m talking about: feelings, emotions, sense of well being, sense of connectedness.

In that case, you go to a counselor or therapist.