...and now for something completely different: Free Will!

[Wildswanderer]

*sigh*
An infallibly omniscient god cannot "test" anyone. The concept is incoherent.
And why should there be any test anyway? We didn't apply for this existence. It was forced on us by god. He owes us!

Dumbest post today. Congratulations!
Yes God can test us.
Knowing what we will do doesn't make it less of a test for us.

 

[Trailblazer]

God doesn't care about anyone but himself. He is ultimately selfish. He created an entire universe just so people could worship him, despite him knowing that it would require almost untold and endless suffering, especially that of children.

You have that backwards. God only cares about humans, God does not care about Himself.

God has no needs, since God is fully self-sufficient and fully self-sustaining, so God needs nothing from humans, including our worship. The only reason God enjoins humans to worship Him is for human benefit. God does not benefit from our worship.

The untold human suffering that exists is another matter altogether, I am not discounting that.
However, I do not blame God for suffering. Suffering is unavoidable in a material world. There will be no more suffering as e experience here in the spiritual world, although there might be suffering for those who turned away from God.

 

[Wildswanderer]

The sad thing is, you have no compassion at all.
I want god to have not created humanity in the first place if our existence requires any suffering. If the universe had never existed, I wouldn't care. And no one else would. And according to apologists, neither would god.
So, would you prefer there to be zero suffering or a lot of suffering.

God doesn't care about anyone but himself. He is ultimately selfish. He created an entire universe just so people could worship him, despite him knowing that it would require almost untold and endless suffering, especially that of children.
But you don't care about that. All you care about is that you get to some promised wonderland of eternal life and reward. Such a childish and self-centred concept.

Our suffering here is short lived. Even if you live 90 years suffering that's an eyeblink in light of eternal joy.
Self centered?
I want others to know real joy and hope in this life not just selfish pleasure that lasts a couple days.b

 

[Wildswanderer]

WADR it is you who doesn't get it. You keep claiming that all sins are the same, that there is no "small evil" and "great evil", just "evil".
Therefore you are saying that eating more than you need to is the same as murdering a child, in god's eyes. Therefore his punishment for both will be the same.

Gluttony is a good example of a grievous sin most people don't even consider sinful. To destroy your body because of the temporary pleasure of unhealthy food is a form of slow suicide. For some people it is literally self murder.

 

[Wildswanderer]

You may be full of evil and a danger to children, but I am not. And neither are most of the people I know.
But the issue here is that if god has created evil because he needs there to be evil in the world, what can anyone do about it? Are you saying that you can change god's perfect creation? Remember that this is "the best of possible worlds". Why do you want to do anything about the evil in it?

Of course you can do something about the evil within you. You can give God control of your life. Most people are in fact, quite capable of evil. Many don't do obviously evil things because society doesn't condone those things. That doesn't make them less evil, only polite sinners.
Changing yourself makes the world better. That's God's desire for you.

 

[Wildswanderer]

What does any of that have to do with you saying that this god could have created everyone as angles, but then it would prevent the 'test' of whether we choose to follow. Yet admit that even if we 'd been created as angles that we could STILL chose not to follow, making this 'test' useless? How about actually addressing the contradictions in the claims you make that I've pointed out instead of responding with some completely unrelated quote?

I already did. Again as far as we are aware angel's can't currently choose to rebel. I didn't say God could have created humans as angels but like angels in that way.
Humans are a different and unique creation endowed with freedom of the will. Why is that hard to understand?

 

[QuestioningMind]

I already did. Again as far as we are aware angel's can't currently choose to rebel. I didn't say God could have created humans as angels but like angels in that way.
Humans are a different and unique creation endowed with freedom of the will. Why is that hard to understand?

Angels clearly also have freedom of will, since they too have been known to defy this god's will. You're claim that angel's currently can't choose to rebel is completely unfounded, since you have no way of knowing what angels have been or are currently doing.

 

[Alien826]

Well angles are just angles. I don't think they choose anything.

Were the angles that made the wrong choice obtuse angles?

 

[Alien826]

Dumbest post today. Congratulations!
Yes God can test us.
Knowing what we will do doesn't make it less of a test for us.

Maybe you are using a different definition of "test". Here's a dictionary definition.

noun
the means by which the presence, quality, or genuineness of anything is determined; a means of trial.
the trial of the quality of something: to put to the test.
verb (used with object)
to subject to a test of any kind; try.
Chemistry. to subject to a chemical test.
verb (used without object)
to undergo a test or trial; try out.
to perform on a test:

Essentially, testing something means finding out something that the tester doesn't already know. God already knows what the result will be.

Admittedly, using the definition on the last line, we could consider suffering to be a test, but from God's point of view it would be unnecessary.

 

[Alien826]

Our suffering here is short lived. Even if you live 90 years suffering that's an eyeblink in light of eternal joy.
Self centered?
I want others to know real joy and hope in this life not just selfish pleasure that lasts a couple days.b

That makes sense if the suffering always resulted in some benefit to us, like learning or becoming better, and there can be cases where that happens. The problem is that there are too many cases where there can be no likely benefit. I suppose that after a million years in heaven the memories of this life would fade, but the fact would remain that there was suffering that could have been avoided (if that is the case).

Take the case of the person who was wrongly imprisoned and is later exonerated and released. He will probably get some compensation, but nothing can erase the years of misery he suffered.

 

[Alien826]

No. Yes, in this life we will always be imperfect. But remember what I said about motivation?
Perhaps you've heard this quote by the apostle Paul: " what I do not want to do, that I do."

His motives are right but he can't woolly achieve sinlessness. That's why a sacrifice was necessary. If we could achieve sinlessness, why would Jesus have to die for us?

We are now of two nature's, where before there was only " me" and what " I " want. Now there's also what the Spirit wants me to be.
I know I've asked a question:why did God start the whole thing?
Why not just live in perfect Harmony as he did before man? Why subject himself to suffering?
Because of his love.
God is love. It's not just one of his attributes, it's his essential nature.
If he just skipped over the test and made us like the angels to begin with, we would not be able to choose him from love, but from obligation. And remember, even the angels had that choice at one time, and many of them choose the wrong thing. He still didn't force any of them to remain.
Just like he doesn't force us to accept his love.
He can stand being with us because he's already covered us in his righteousness. He doesn't change us against our carnal natures will even after salvation, BTW. Sometimes I wish he would. He still asks first. Sure, there is an element of mystery to salvation. But we don't have to fully understand... we only have to accept.

I'm sorry you didn't address my first two points. I think they deserve a reply.

Why is it necessary to be sinless to qualify? Given what we have to work with, wouldn't an honest effort be enough? Even given God's position of perfection, why would he want to punish us for what is mostly our nature? As you say, we can't help sinning. Is it fair to punish those that can't help their actions?

Sacrifice, that is punishing one animal or person for the sins of another makes little sense to us today, though I know it was believed when the Bible was written. I find it difficult to understand why God would consider it necessary either, then or now.

Why does God want us to "choose" him? If he wants us to be happy, why can't he let us pursue it in our own way, or at least not punish us when we make the wrong "choice", which kind of devalues the so called "choosing from love" don't you think? To some it would be choosing from fear. If I want someone to love me, I try to be nice to them, not threaten them with punishment.

And "covered us with righteousness" doesn't convey much to me. I sounds like giving us a fresh coat of paint.

And finally, it's difficult to "accept" something that seems to make so little sense. If God did exist, I'd really prefer a lot more clarity!

 

[1213]

I don't see how that is possible. I cannot choose to desire to have my thumbs cut off. I cannot choose to desire to eat a live slug. Can you/?

What prevents it? I think it is only your own free will that prevents it, because you would not like the result. I could do it, but I don't want it, because I don't think it is good. And this shows I have free will, I choose what I want freely, on basis what I like.

By that reasoning you are claiming that my free will doesn't count. Only the free will of the people in your Eden story. I didn't choose evil. I didn't choose suffering. I am being forced to live out their freely chosen fantasies.

It is true that you didn't choose this life. And I think your free will counts in that if you don't want evil and suffering. For that I think God has prepared way for everyone back to God, where there is no evil and suffering.

Go to the children's cancer ward and explain to them and their parents that the they chose evil and that they chose to suffer and that they should learn their lesson for their freely chosen audacity. That is a monstrous and evil sentiment that I have no choice but to reject.,

Even if you choose to reject the idea that this "life" is a lesson, I think it doesn't change it. In Biblical point of view people were expelled to this "life" where we can experience also evil (lack of good). I don't claim cancer patient chose this. I say we are all in this, because people chose this lesson in the beginning. And when we are here temporarily, it would be good to learn well and choose good. There is a way back to God and life without suffering and evil. Crucial thing is not why we are here, but what we learn and choose in this lesson. If one wants eternal life with God, it is better to choose wisely.

 

[ppp]

You're just talking in circles. I did not say I am not capable of it. I said that I could not choose to desire it. I even put the words choose to desire in bold, but you still managed to miss it.

And this shows I have free will, I choose what I want freely, on basis what I like.

You are playing a synonym game.

And this shows I have free will, I choose what I want freely, on [the] basis [of] what I like.
And this shows I have free will, I choose what I [desire] freely, on [the] basis [of] what I [desire].
And this shows I have free will, I choose [to desire to keep my thumbs freely], on [the] basis [that I desire to keep my thumbs]..

All you are doing is claiming that you choose what you desire on the basis that you already desire it.
Stop conflating action and desire.

 

[KWED]

lol, therefore stop saying god doesn't exist

I'm talking about the god religionists believe in.
You need to be familiar with the concept of assuming another's position in order to analyse it. It's an important element in debate.

nice analogy, I'm sure your new god (logic) will answer this

Does that mean you can't answer it?

 

[KWED]

It's appointed onto man once to die. You can't just apply your logic to one situation and be logical.
And if you apply it to every evil, no matter how small, it just gets absurd.
Why didn't God stop you from stealing a dime? Did he want to to become a kleptomaniac?

So once again, you are claiming that god considers murdering children to be as serious/trivial as eating more than you need, and that both deserve the same degree of attention/punishment.
Such an argument is so incoherent that one has to wonder how someone is able to present it with a straight face.

 

[KWED]

Read your Bible.

That's not how debate works.
You made a claim/presented an argument. It is therefore your responsibility to explain/support it.
Perhaps you didn't know what you were talking about/were just repeating platitudes and cannot answer my questions, hmm...?

 

[KWED]

Dumbest post today. Congratulations!

Careful with that irony. It burns.

Yes God can test us.

How, if he already knows exactly what our response will be?

Knowing what we will do doesn't make it less of a test for us.

Of course it does, because if the response is already known with 100% certainty, it is not a "test".
Because the response is fixed, only one response is possible, so no test.

What do you think "test" means?

 

[KWED]

You have that backwards. God only cares about humans, God does not care about Himself.

Simply repeating platitudes is meaningless. The evidence from his actions show that he doesn't care about people, and even seems to want to inflict suffering on people, including innocent children.

God has no needs, since God is fully self-sufficient and fully self-sustaining, so God needs nothing from humans, including our worship.

The evidence suggests otherwise. If he doesn't need us to worship him, why did he create us to worship him?

The only reason God enjoins humans to worship Him is for human benefit.

Another nonsensical, incoherent argument.
Humans did not exist. Therefore nothing could be for their benefit.

God does not benefit from our worship.

Then why is it so important to him that we worship him. Remember that he created humans "only to worship him".

The untold human suffering that exists is another matter altogether, I am not discounting that.
However, I do not blame God for suffering. Suffering is unavoidable in a material world. There will be no more suffering as e experience here in the spiritual world, although there might be suffering for those who turned away from God.

Suffering is not necessary. God both causes suffering and could prevent all suffering if he wanted to. Therefore all the suffering we see is by god's will.

If an ordinary human walked past a drowning child and refused to save it, they would be universally condemned and possibly prosecuted. God does this all day, every day. Why do you not condemn him? Why do you worship such a monster? Simply because he demands it?

 

[KWED]

Our suffering here is short lived. Even if you live 90 years suffering that's an eyeblink in light of eternal joy.

So you think it is ok to torture a child for a day if you then give it ice cream and video games for a year.

Self centered?

Yes. Everything a religionist does is about getting their eternal reward. You are even prepared to defend god's barbarism if you think it helps you.

I want others to know real joy and hope in this life not just selfish pleasure that lasts a couple days.b

What "real joy and hope"? We have discussed this before. My life was been thoroughly enjoyable while yours has been terrible. You only cling on to the idea of some better life to come because your life has been so awful. If god can give me the life I've had, why can't he give you the same? Of what benefit is all your suffering?

 

[KWED]

Gluttony is a good example of a grievous sin most people don't even consider sinful. To destroy your body because of the temporary pleasure of unhealthy food is a form of slow suicide. For some people it is literally self murder.

So you really do consider eating more than you need to be as serious an offence as murdering several children, and deserving the same punishment!
And there we have a perfect example of the dangers of blind adherence to religious dogma.