...and now for something completely different: Free Will!

[paradox]

I'm talking about the god religionists believe in.
You need to be familiar with the concept of assuming another's position in order to analyse it. It's an important element in debate.

I'm familiar with logic which you claimed to be "god"
But judging by your posts it is you who is not familiar with god of another's person position?
Definitions of God - PHILOSOPHY DUNGEON (weebly.com)

Does that mean you can't answer it?

You first.

 

[DKH]

I take it that you do not consider your god to be omnibenevolent?

No, this is incorrect! It is my opinion that my God is all-loving. As well as: the only true God, infinite, has unlimited powers and has no boundaries of knowledge. Thus, my God is above all, over all and has no equal. Additionally, my God declares "evil" as an opposition to Himself and His laws, statues and judgements. Hence, my God cannot be labeled as "evil" in anything He may or may not allow to come to be.

 

[Trailblazer]

New You're just talking in circles. I did not say I am not capable of it. I said that I could not choose to desire it. I even put the words choose to desire in bold, but you still managed to miss it.

No, we do not choose what we desire.

Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. All of these can be considered causes or reasons why we choose one thing or another. Free will is simply the will/ability to make choices based upon our desires and preferences.

 

[ppp]

No, this is incorrect! It is my opinion that my God is all-loving. As well as: the only true God, infinite, has unlimited powers and has no boundaries of knowledge. Thus, my God is above all, over all and has no equal. Additionally, my God declares "evil" as an opposition to Himself and His laws, statues and judgements. Hence, my God cannot be labeled as "evil" in anything He may or may not allow to come to be.

Pfft. You wish. I label you depiction of your god as evil.

 

[ppp]

Free will is simply the will/ability to make choices based upon our desires and preferences.

That is will. What is it free of?

 

[Alien826]

No, this is incorrect! It is my opinion that my God is all-loving. As well as: the only true God, infinite, has unlimited powers and has no boundaries of knowledge. Thus, my God is above all, over all and has no equal. Additionally, my God declares "evil" as an opposition to Himself and His laws, statues and judgements. Hence, my God cannot be labeled as "evil" in anything He may or may not allow to come to be.

I think this is called "Divine Command Theory"? Basically, if God declares something to be to be good or evil, then it is, regardless of how we feel about it. Putting it another way, God's definition of a word must be correct because he writes the dictionary.

The trouble with this, as I see it, is that it makes all morality meaningless (to us). For example, if Dr Evil creates a flood that wipes out the whole Earth, that's evil. If God does it, it's good. If tomorrow God declares that rape is good then it is (not saying he would necessarily do this, but that's where this line of thinking goes). How can we reconcile this, other than with a kind of universal version of "father knows best". And if we are faced with judging something new to us morally, what do we do? The only thing we can do it seems is to ask God, because any judgment we might make could well be wrong, no matter how reasonable it might seem.

In short, morality becomes arbitrary.

 

[Trailblazer]

Simply repeating platitudes is meaningless. The evidence from his actions show that he doesn't care about people, and even seems to want to inflict suffering on people, including innocent children.

What actions? You have no idea what God's actions are. Nobody does.

God does not inflict suffering on people, including innocent children. Suffering simply exists as part of living in the material world, but there is also joy in the material world. I never hear atheists thank God for the joy, they only blame God for the suffering.

The evidence suggests otherwise. If he doesn't need us to worship him, why did he create us to worship him?

God has no needs, since God is fully self-sufficient, so it is logically impossible for God to need our worship.
As I said, God created us to worship Him because it is beneficial for us to worship Him.
God wants for us what is beneficial for us.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings, p. 140

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260

Another nonsensical, incoherent argument.
Humans did not exist. Therefore nothing could be for their benefit.

Humans did not exist until they were created. After that certain things were for human benefit.
God knows what is for human benefit, since God created us for a particular purpose.

Then why is it so important to him that we worship him. Remember that he created humans "only to worship him".

It is important because it is beneficial for us to worship God so thta we may be filled with the spirit of life.

4: O SON OF MAN! I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

Suffering is not necessary. God both causes suffering and could prevent all suffering if he wanted to. Therefore all the suffering we see is by god's will.

No, God does not cause any suffering. Suffering is simply part and parcel of living in a material world. The most you can blame God for is creating the material world and physical bodies, which makes suffering is unavoidable.

God could prevent all suffering if He chose to because God is all-powerful. However, God chooses not to intervene in the material world and prevent suffering just because some people don't like to suffer. There is a reason for suffering. otherwise God would not have created a world in which He knew we would suffer.

God gave humans free will and a rational mind so that we could minimize suffering and eradicate certain kinds of suffering and so we could help other people who are suffering. God also helps those who are suffering if they turn towards Him.

If an ordinary human walked past a drowning child and refused to save it, they would be universally condemned and possibly prosecuted. God does this all day, every day. Why do you not condemn him? Why do you worship such a monster? Simply because he demands it?

We cannot expect God to do what a human would do under the same circumstances, since God is not a human with responsibilities and obligations. God is not a human so whenever you compare what God would/should do to what a human should/should do, you are committing the fallacy of false equivalence.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".
False equivalence - Wikipedia

God does not demand any worship. God allows us to choose freely whether we will worship Him or not. Those who choose to worship God get the benefits, the others do not.

 

[Alien826]

While we have Christian apologists with us, there's something that has always puzzled me. Adam and Eve in the garden, right? No sin in the world. They mess up and get kicked out. Sin appears. Sin, or something, changed the whole world. What actually happened and who did it?

Let's say I was there. I'm sitting quietly petting a tiger that purrs contentedly and chews on its vegetarian diet. Suddenly it bites me. Physically, what happened? A snake slithers by, and I wonder where its legs went. What happened? My wife gives birth, and suffers intense pain. I think, that's odd, it didn't hurt at all last time. I could go on, but you get the idea.

Who did it? Not humans, they don't have the power. Not Satan, as I understand it. He doesn't have that level of power. Not Sin, it's a concept. Who does that leave? Only God has that power. So, did God take his lovely creation and deliberately change it to be evil? Did God think, how can I make this place thoroughly unpleasant? Oh I know, mosquitoes! Now lets see what else I can do... hah, cancer! You get the idea.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is will. What is it free of?

I do not understand what you are asking.

Free will is simply the will/ability to make choices based upon our desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. All of these can be considered causes or reasons why we choose one thing or another.

How free our choices are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints such as ability and opportunity but we have volition as otherwise we could not choose anything.

 

[Alien826]

I never hear atheists thank God for the joy, they only blame God for the suffering.

Atheists neither thank nor blame God. They don't believe is is such a thing. What they do is point out what they see as problems with a given world view. Actually, the typical atheist probably accepts the world for what it is.

Humans did not exist until they were created. After that certain things were for human benefit.
God knows what is for human benefit, since God created us for a particular purpose.

What do you think that purpose was? I understand that you can't be expected to give a precise explanation, but any ideas? It seems to me that the purpose has to be something pretty overwhelming to justify the whole can of worms.

No, God does not cause any suffering. Suffering is simply part and parcel of living in a material world. The most you can blame God for is creating the material world and physical bodies, which makes suffering is unavoidable.

What strange logic. God created the physical world which has unavoidable suffering, and placed us in it, but does not cause any suffering. How is he not the original cause of that suffering? If I balance a bucket of water over a door and it falls on your head, I'm not to blame, the world is, because buckets of water, precariously balanced, tend to fall?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Angels clearly also have freedom of will, since they too have been known to defy this god's will. You're claim that angel's currently can't choose to rebel is completely unfounded, since you have no way of knowing what angels have been or are currently doing.

That's incorrect. We actually know quite a lot about what angels do

10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Psalms 91:11
11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways;

6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: “ ‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,’who was, and is, and is to come.”

"Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people."

"See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven."

So we know angels serve God and praise him guard people.

 

[Trailblazer]

While we have Christian apologists with us, there's something that has always puzzled me. Adam and Eve in the garden, right? No sin in the world. They mess up and get kicked out. Sin appears. Sin, or something, changed the whole world. What actually happened and who did it?

As a Baha'i, I do not believe in the Adam and Eve were real people who existed. I do not believe that there was a literal garden with a tree and a snake and two people who ate a fruit from a tree. Rather, I interpret that part of Genesis as an allegory: 30: ADAM AND EVE

I believe that Adam was a Prophet who actually existed; not the first man, but the first Prophet of the Adamic cycle of religion.

We inherited the propensity to sin from Adam, but not because Adam ate an apple from a tree. Rather, when Adam was born, he entered into the world of good and evil, the material world... The attachment to the material world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam... It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and instead have the propensity to sin.

 

[ppp]

I do not understand what you are asking.

Free will is simply the will/ability to make choices based upon our desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. All of these can be considered causes or reasons why we choose one thing or another.

How free our choices are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints such as ability and opportunity but we have volition as otherwise we could not choose anything.

The "free" part has been conventionally used to represent that we can make decisions unconstrained by nature or nurture. That we have souls that recognize a sort of deontological morality, and that our mortal ties can conflict with that moral sense. The free part is supposedly our ability to make correct moral decisions free of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. I am not advocating for that position, merely explaining it.

What I see in your definition is reasonable, but isn't that just our will? I don't see that it needs an adjective to make it mean any more than that.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Maybe you are using a different definition of "test". Here's a dictionary definition.

noun
the means by which the presence, quality, or genuineness of anything is determined; a means of trial.
the trial of the quality of something: to put to the test.
verb (used with object)
to subject to a test of any kind; try.
Chemistry. to subject to a chemical test.
verb (used without object)
to undergo a test or trial; try out.
to perform on a test:

Essentially, testing something means finding out something that the tester doesn't already know. God already knows what the result will be.

Admittedly, using the definition on the last line, we could consider suffering to be a test, but from God's point of view it would be unnecessary.

Something is still determined. God already knows but we don't, so it's still a test. And the test is necessary, because we wouldn't be the person we are meant to be without it. Testing doesn't just reveal character, it helps form character.

 

[Wildswanderer]

That makes sense if the suffering always resulted in some benefit to us, like learning or becoming better, and there can be cases where that happens. The problem is that there are too many cases where there can be no likely benefit. I suppose that after a million years in heaven the memories of this life would fade, but the fact would remain that there was suffering that could have been avoided (if that is the case).

Take the case of the person who was wrongly imprisoned and is later exonerated and released. He will probably get some compensation, but nothing can erase the years of misery he suffered.

For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I'm sorry you didn't address my first two points. I think they deserve a reply.

Why is it necessary to be sinless to qualify? Given what we have to work with, wouldn't an honest effort be enough? Even given God's position of perfection, why would he want to punish us for what is mostly our nature? As you say, we can't help sinning. Is it fair to punish those that can't help their actions?

Sacrifice, that is punishing one animal or person for the sins of another makes little sense to us today, though I know it was believed when the Bible was written. I find it difficult to understand why God would consider it necessary either, then or now.

Why does God want us to "choose" him? If he wants us to be happy, why can't he let us pursue it in our own way, or at least not punish us when we make the wrong "choice", which kind of devalues the so called "choosing from love" don't you think? To some it would be choosing from fear. If I want someone to love me, I try to be nice to them, not threaten them with punishment.

And "covered us with righteousness" doesn't convey much to me. I sounds like giving us a fresh coat of paint.

And finally, it's difficult to "accept" something that seems to make so little sense. If God did exist, I'd really prefer a lot more clarity!

Doesn't everyone want to be chosen? Perhaps we get that from God's image we are created in.
God simply gives the unrepentant what they asked for. Whether you believe in hell or annihilation at death for the unrepentant, either way it's separation from God.
Why would you quibble over these little details when the ruler of the cosmos loves you and wants you as his own, and offers you eternal life?

 

[QuestioningMind]

That's incorrect. We actually know quite a lot about what angels do

10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Psalms 91:11
11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways;

6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: “ ‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,’who was, and is, and is to come.”

"Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people."

"See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven."

So we know angels serve God and praise him guard people.

So we know angels serve God and praise him guard people.
Unless they rebel against this god and then they no longer serve or praise him.

 

[Trailblazer]

Atheists neither thank nor blame God. They don't believe is is such a thing. What they do is point out what they see as problems with a given world view. Actually, the typical atheist probably accepts the world for what it is.

You are correct in saying that the typical atheist accepts the world for what it is, but we have some atypical atheists on this forum who blame God for whatever they do not like.

Whenever atheists talk about what God did or did not do that they do not like, they are invoking God so they are blaming God for what they do not like. There is no get out of jail free card for atheists just because they do not believe God exists. A nonexistent entity cannot be to blame for anything, that is illogical.

What do you think that purpose was? I understand that you can't be expected to give a precise explanation, but any ideas? It seems to me that the purpose has to be something pretty overwhelming to justify the whole can of worms.

According to my religion the purpose for which we were created was to know and worship God.
That purpose is summarized in the following prayer.

Short Obligatory Prayer

TO BE RECITED ONCE IN TWENTY FOUR HOURS, AT NOON.

I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify, at this moment, to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth.

There is none other God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.

Bahá’u’lláh

Short Obligatory Prayer

What strange logic. God created the physical world which has unavoidable suffering, and placed us in it, but does not cause any suffering. How is he not the original cause of that suffering? If I balance a bucket of water over a door and it falls on your head, I'm not to blame, the world is, because buckets of water, precariously balanced, tend to fall?

I never claimed that God is not the originator of the suffering, but that is not he same thing as being the cause of the suffering. God created a world in which suffering exists but after that God was out of the game.

Suffering exists in this world because it is a material world in which suffering is unavoidable. Accidents and injuries will happen and people will get physical diseases because they have physical bodies. Moreover, people will die and leave mourners who suffer the loss of their loved ones. I do not like it any more than anyone else, especially because I have had to endure untold suffering for most of my life. I do not want to share it on this forum, I try to keep it private, but if you were my personal friend like @Truthseeker you would know what I have endured.

 

[KWED]

I'm familiar with logic which you claimed to be "god"
But judging by your posts it is you who is not familiar with god of another's person position?
Definitions of God - PHILOSOPHY DUNGEON (weebly.com)

You seem to be getting yourself confused here.
You said that your god is constrained by the laws of logic.
Therefore logic is more powerful than your god.
Therefore, if god is the most powerful thing, then logic is god.
QED.

You first.

"Me first" what?
You said that logic could provide an answer (although you didn't say what the question was).

 

[Alien826]

Doesn't everyone want to be chosen? Perhaps we get that from God's image we are created in.

But we're talking about God, not fallible humans. I would expect God to be so loving that he would want us to be happy regardless of how and where.

God simply gives the unrepentant what they asked for. Whether you believe in hell or annihilation at death for the unrepentant, either way it's separation from God.

What if I'm asking for God to just leave me alone, but not in some place of punishment? That option doesn't seem to be there. I do understand that Christian belief on the afterlife does include those options, but I don't see one where I get to be back in the Garden of Eden, or somewhere pleasant anyway. Nobody actually desires or asks for hell in reality. It's just that the options are, well, limited.

Why would you quibble over these little details when the ruler of the cosmos loves you and wants you as his own, and offers you eternal life?

Now you're just preaching. If I believed that, I'd be fine with it. I'd even be fine with natural suffering and self caused suffering. Just subtract the undeserved suffering that so many experience.

By the way, I already have eternal life, do I not? Seems like I must have if God has to annihilate me.

I'll add something that may interest you. After a life long atheism, some time ago I went through a period of belief in some form of God. Long story. I decided that I would approach that in a "scientific" way. I started with only two assumptions. God exists and God is good. The first relates to something I considered to be evidence and the second I out and out assumed, because I found an evil God to be too horrible to contemplate. I then went on a voyage of discovery, asking God for guidance and testing various religious beliefs against my two assumptions. More is too much for this thread, but the end of the story is that it all faded away. Weird, huh?