For Chrisitans Only: Matthew 5:38-39

[Ben Dhyan]

But why should that be viewed as retaliation? Why can't it just be viewed as justice?

It is justice metered under the law. Here are some dictionary definitions of "retaliation'.
The act of retaliating, or of returning like for like; retribution; now, specifically, the return of evil for evil; e.g., an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. retaliation - definition and meaning

 

[Colt]

So, you're lumping together every single Jew who was alive at that time and saying that they are the ones who put Jesus to death? Because that sounds like an awfully broad brush to me.

Of coarse not! The apostles and common followers were Jews, but the powerful enemies of Jesus’s Gospel were from among the authorities of Judaism. For the 3+ years of his public ministry we don’t have any record of Roman authority figures harassing Jesus. The appearance before Pilate after having already been condemned by the Sanhedrin was the first major confrontation between Jesus and Roman courts.

It should be made clear that the Son of God incarnate would have encountered resistance, persecution and death in many other cultures on earth that he chose as the seat of his mission to the world.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Thank you, Brickjectivity. Also, in a conversation with @Ehav4Ever in post #259 in another thread, he made the point that:

the original Jewish Christians were so focused on the idea that their "end game" scenario was going to happen within their generation that they did not focus much on Torah, at a certain point. . .

I see. So, what did you mean in this post below?

Simply: the person you mentioned would not believe in dominating and suppressing all around.

So then, are you saying that you can't have functioning society if you don't enforce the laws of society and don't have adequate compensation for breaking the law?

That is what you have been saying couched as a question, and I have made an objection. I've been saying there have to be exceptions in order for systems to function...so far. So far every system needs dynamic decisions just as gears require grease. So far every system wears down and must be replaced or have parts replaced. Living things accomplish this by dying and regrowing, and they reproduce with a similar not an identical creature.

So, what verse did you quote in 2 Kings?

I didn't quote any verse, and if I had I would have used quotation marks and given a verse reference. I alluded to the story about Elijah and Aram within chapter 6 which takes up about 15 verse but did not quote it, nor did I in any way intend to imply that I had quoted it. I think it is obvious.

 

[pearl]

Also, those verses would be an interesting topic for a thread, unless one has already been made.

One of the purposes of critical scholarship is the attempt to distinguish between those words that may have been Jesus' actual words and what may have been placed on Jesus lips by the authors who wrote in a later generation, and with the aid/hindsight of post Resurrection faith.

So, what do you think the ends of the earth meant well after Christianity was already established in the first and second centuries?

If we judge that meaning by today's many missionaries, the literal ends of the earth, takes them into little known and unfriendly places.

 

[metis]

Actually, I heard differently as far as Jesus' true church being the organization that selected the NT canon. However, I suppose that's a topic for a different discussion.

With the potential exception of the Septuagint, the apostles did not leave a defined set of scriptures; instead the canon of both the Old Testament and the New Testament developed over time. Different denominations recognize different lists of books as canonical, following various church councils and the decisions of leaders of various churches.

For mainstream Pauline Christianity (growing from proto-orthodox Christianity in pre-Nicene times) which books constituted the Christian biblical canons of both the Old and New Testament was generally established by the 5th century, despite some scholarly disagreements,[18] for the ancient undivided Church (the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions, before the East–West Schism). The Catholic canon was set at the Council of Rome (382).[19]

In the wake of the Protestant Reformation, the Council of Trent (1546) affirmed the Vulgate as the official Catholic Bible in order to address changes Martin Luther made in his recently completed German translation which was based on the Hebrew language Tanakh in addition to the original Greek of the component texts. The canons of the Church of England and English Presbyterians were decided definitively by the Thirty-Nine Articles (1563) and the Westminster Confession of Faith (1647), respectively. The Synod of Jerusalem (1672) established additional canons that are widely accepted throughout the Eastern Orthodox Church. -- Biblical canon - Wikipedia

 

[BilliardsBall]

Well, if this isn't too off topic, may I ask you why you are no longer a Jew?

I'm Jewish.

I'm Messianic--I believe in Yeshua, a JEWISH MESSIAH as promised in the HEBREW scriptures.



I trusted Jesus for salvation because biblically speaking, He is the pledged Jewish Messiah, come to redeem everyone's sin. Anyone trusting Jesus for salvation, per the Bible, misses Hell for Heaven!

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The Gospel of the Kingdom had already replaced the Old Testament. Jesus recognized the intent of the evolved religion of Judaism with its man-made laws.
After Pentecost a new Gospel replaced the gospel of Jesus. "Christ and him crucified" and resurrected became the new message.............................

......and I find Jesus' New message is found right before resurrected Jesus ascended at Acts of the Apostles 1:8.
Which New message as instructed at Matthew 24:14 to tell the world about the Good News (gospel) of God's Kingdom.
That Jesus would be King of God's Kingdom government for one-thousand years - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Well, I would ask: Well, why would God's Kingdom even have those laws in the first place, however, I would feel like I walked into a setup of criticizing the Jews' version of the Kingdom of God.

The old Mosaic Law showed the Jews in their imperfect or sinful state they needed Messiah to fulfill that old Law.
I would say the Jews' version of the Kingdom of God is found at Daniel 2:44-45.
God's Kingdom government will be the last one standing after all the other political powers are brought down.
Brought down by that figurative ' stone ' (Daniel 2:35,45)

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I'm Jewish.I'm Messianic--I believe in Yeshua, a JEWISH MESSIAH as promised in the HEBREW scriptures.
I trusted Jesus for salvation because biblically speaking, He is the pledged Jewish Messiah, come to redeem everyone's sin. Anyone trusting Jesus for salvation, per the Bible, misses Hell for Heaven!

First of all, I find redeem "IF....." as found at 1 John 1:7 A.
Not all resurrected to Heaven, but most people resurrected out of biblical hell to live on EARTH.
Trusting in Jesus as Messiah for salvation, besides being resurrected out of biblical hell (the grave- Rev. 20:13-14),
as Psalms 37:9-11 promises that humble meek people will inherit the EARTH.
Jesus was speaking about inheriting the EARTH at Matthew 5:5.
A beautiful coming paradisical EARTH for most people as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

....................If we judge that meaning by today's many missionaries, the literal ends of the earth, takes them into little known and unfriendly places.

Modern technology has made local rapid Bible translation possible into over 1,000 languages so that people even living in remote areas (ends of the earth) can now have Scripture in their own mother tongue or native languages.
- Matthew 19:29: Mark 10:29-30; Luke 18:29-30 ( side note: KJV wrongly added the word ' wife ' )
Not all can give a 'hundred fold' (full-time preaching service) but even less counts according to Jesus at Matthew 13:23, so the preaching work (Matthew 24:14) is carried out by more than missionaries but even by local peoples.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I'm just curious: Would you make a distinction between un-faithful Jews and those who weren't unfaithful? And if so, how?

In the year 66 the 'believing Jews' left Jerusalem (as Jesus instructed at Luke 19:43-44) before the year 70 when the Roman armies returned.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It is justice metered under the law. Here are some dictionary definitions of "retaliation'.
The act of retaliating, or of returning like for like; retribution; now, specifically, the return of evil for evil; e.g., an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. retaliation - definition and meaning

However, under the Constitution of the Mosaic law 'eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life ' was: equal justice.
Not retaliation a the world's standards might be.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

However, under the Constitution of the Mosaic law 'eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life ' was: equal justice.
Not retaliation a the world's standards might be.

If someone takes your eye and the Judge says the culprit must lose their eye as a result, law or no law, this is an act of retaliation.. I am not talking law specifically here, nor religion, just the meaning of English words as noted from a contemporary dictionary and common sense. The very concept of equal justice implies some retaliatory action to be taken as a result of illegal action,

 

[pearl]

so the preaching work (Matthew 24:14) is carried out by more than missionaries but even by local peoples.

The last words of the priest at the end of Mass used to be 'go forth and spread the Gospel'.
The liturgy does not simply come to an end. Those assembled are sent forth to bring the fruits of the Eucharist to the world.

 

[BilliardsBall]

First of all, I find redeem "IF....." as found at 1 John 1:7 A.
Not all resurrected to Heaven, but most people resurrected out of biblical hell to live on EARTH.
Trusting in Jesus as Messiah for salvation, besides being resurrected out of biblical hell (the grave- Rev. 20:13-14),
as Psalms 37:9-11 promises that humble meek people will inherit the EARTH.
Jesus was speaking about inheriting the EARTH at Matthew 5:5.
A beautiful coming paradisical EARTH for most people as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.

There are hundreds of verses demonstrating eternity, but if the wicked are annihilated--the same Greek word for "forever" describes BOTH the righteous and wicked in Revelation--so the righteous will be annihilated also.

JW belief is "new" and contrary to thousands of years or Orthodox belief.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

There are hundreds of verses demonstrating eternity, but if the wicked are annihilated--the same Greek word for "forever" describes BOTH the righteous and wicked in Revelation--so the righteous will be annihilated also.
JW belief is "new" and contrary to thousands of years or Orthodox belief.

Revelation 11:18 B says God will bring to ruin those ruining the Earth. The righteous do Not bring ruin to Earth.
One Jewish professor said at Psalms 145:20-21 when it says 'forever and ever' that underscores how permanent.
? Any thoughts about Exodus 23:7 _________________
So, it is those who prove to remain UN-righteous and wicked (Not the righteous) that are destroyed forever (Psalms 92:7)
Un-righteous ones who suppress the truth - Romans 1:18.
For it is un-thinkable on God's part that the outcome should be the same for the righteous and wicked - Genesis 18:25 A
The humble meek are around once the wicked are gone - Psalms 37:10-11- the meek inherit the Earth - Matt.5:5
The righteous see the downfall of the wicked - Proverbs 29:16.
Angels will separate the wicked from the righteous - Matthew 13:9.
2 Peter 2:9 lets us know the godly are delivered, but not the un-righteous.
So, at the soon coming Time of Separation on Earth it is the righteous who are saved - Matthew 25:46 B.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The last words of the priest at the end of Mass used to be 'go forth and spread the Gospel'.
The liturgy does not simply come to an end. Those assembled are sent forth to bring the fruits of the Eucharist to the world.

Yes, ' go forth and spread the Gospel ' is in harmony with Jesus' instructions found at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8.
Spread by 'word of mouth', and as Hebrews 13:15 says to offer the ' fruit of the lips ' (speech). - Romans 10:10.
Tell others about the 'good news (gospel) of God's kingdom' in the hands of Christ Jesus - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26

 

[URAVIP2ME]

......... The very concept of equal justice implies some retaliatory action to be taken as a result of illegal action,

Retaliate or correction ? If a person's sheep was stolen then the thief (legal action) would have to replace the sheep along with any other expenses incurred because of stealing the sheep.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Retaliate or correction ? If a person's sheep was stolen then the thief (legal action) would have to replace the sheep along with any other expenses incurred because of stealing the sheep.

Yes, as a consequence for the action of stealing, a retaliatory action by the legal authority would take place to make the thief replace that stolen.

What do you not understand about the word retaliation, here is a dictionary explanation.

noun

1. The act of retaliating; the return of like for like; the doing of that to another which he has done to us; especially (now usually), requital of evil; reprisal; revenge.
2. SynonymsRetribution, Reprisal, etc. See revenge.
3. The act of retaliating, or of returning like for like; retribution; now, specifically, the return of evil for evil; e.g., an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

The Century Dictionary.
retaliation meaning at DuckDuckGo

 

[David Davidovich]

I'm Jewish.

I'm Messianic--I believe in Yeshua, a JEWISH MESSIAH as promised in the HEBREW scriptures.



I trusted Jesus for salvation because biblically speaking, He is the pledged Jewish Messiah, come to redeem everyone's sin. Anyone trusting Jesus for salvation, per the Bible, misses Hell for Heaven!

See my new thread: For Former Jews Only: Why Did You Leave the Faith?. Also, from arguments that I heard from Jews, the Christian interpretation of messiah doesn't really match with what the Jewish text says.