Nothing lasts forever in this life

[Sheldon]

we believe in Baha'u''llah because of evidence in part.

Yet despite this claim being repeated in abundance none is ever demonstrated, only subjective anecdotal beliefs, and claims about some texts, and then a rather hasty "religious hook" to come on in and try the water it's the best there is. Then an equally rather hasty no true Scotsman fallacy, when the claim for evidence is rejected as it doesn't offer anything objectively different to any other subjective religious belief to evidence any deity.

My messenger is the true messenger, all of yours are fake, is not a very compelling argument. Though it was a rather hilarious skit by Monty Python in one of their films.

 

[Sheldon]

There is no need to bring "brains" into it.

For the love of Allah, give a man some warning won't you, shiraz everywhere.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Maybe @Sgt. Pepper can tell us something about contact with spirits of departed.

What would you like to know?

 

[Sheldon]

If physical death is indeed the end of life, is there something bad about that?

Not even for believers, as they will never be aware of their folly. If only religions remained this innocuous, I'd spend my time more productively. Well, I'd drink a little more and bi**h about how selfish and greedy my ex wife is. So subjectively more productive..

 

[Trailblazer]

And the contact sometimes is nice, sometimes bad.

but it's not always bad. That is all I can say without going into details I'd rather not share on a public forum!

 

[Sheldon]

My point still stands.
I made no claims about what the afterlife will be like.
I made claims about what the afterlife will not be like.
1. There is no sunset
2. There is no sunrise
3. Time is different to how we experience it

1-3 does not tell us what the afterlife will be like.

Of course it does, it makes three separate claims about what it is like. Good grief why do you do this?

 

[Sheldon]

However, I know the function of X.

How long before you deny claiming to know this I wonder? Please share the facts that underpin this knowledge, as of course facts must do for all knowledge.

 

[Sheldon]

If you mean that the expressions on a human face can give clues to things about that person's emotional state or even personality, then duh! But that has no bearing on believing they have a "soul" that is independent of the physical brain.

Indeed it surely can't be a much of surprise that animals that have evolved to live in societal groups and close proximity, have evolved the ability to recognise facial cues. I've fled a few bars and nightclubs in my youth, based on such evidence. It certainly would have a survival benefit. Whereas a woo woo soul doesn't appear to have any at all. Now when did this deity first insert this soul? Sahelanthropus or Ardipithecus, or are we talking much later like Australopithecus or Paranthropus? What about Neanderthals? Now humans mated with Neanderthals so did they have souls, what about the resulting offspring?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..a woo woo soul doesn't appear to have any at all. Now when did this deity first insert this soul? Sahelanthropus or Ardipithecus, or are we talking much later like Australopithecus or Paranthropus? What about Neanderthals? Now humans mated with Neanderthals so did they have souls, what about the resulting offspring?

All creatures have souls.
It doesn't really matter when God decided to place souls capable of disobedience in his creatures.
It is clear that we "aren't all on the same page" when it comes to what being human means.
All creatures have their nature, and worship God .. except for mankind and "ghosts" [ jinn, who are made of smokeless fire ]

Of course, you don't believe in the unseen .. but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist .. you just can't "see" it.

 

[Sheldon]

So you accept that the "spiritual world" can't be shown, demonstrated, tested, etc. It is basically the same as "nothing" in practical terms.
Yet you believe it exists with an unwavering certainty because a Persian man in the 19th century said it exists. A man who speaks almost entirely in meaningless platitudes which don't stand up to close scrutiny.
And you see nothing wrong with that?
Fair enough.

It's amazing how often people try to infer meaning into meaningless platitudes, it's pretty funny for a while, but does also get very tedious. Unless Monty Python are doing it of course.

 

[Sheldon]

All creatures have souls.

I am dubious, even my cousin Jim?

 

[Sheldon]

It doesn't really matter when God decided to place souls capable of disobedience in his creatures.

Ah so you have nothing, thought so.

It is clear that we "aren't all on the same page" when it comes to what being human means.

No indeed, some of us accept scientific facts, while others prefer to cling to the unevidenced woo woo of archaic superstition.

All creatures have their nature, and worship God .. except for mankind and "ghosts" [ jinn, who are made of smokeless fire ]

You might as well be claiming Harry Potter is a real wizard for all the sense that made.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You might as well be claiming Harry Potter is a real wizard for all the sense that made.

Are you asking me what that means?
All creatures have their natures, and are not accountable for their actions.
[ Note: planet of the apes is fiction ]

..whereas we have courts of law [ in civilised countries, at least ]
Many people take these things for granted, as if mankind doesn't have a history of civil wars and ignorance.
Oh well .. God knows best .. you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
"Commoners will be commoners"

"send all the bourgeoise to the guillotine"

 

[Trailblazer]

That consciousness is a product of the physical brain.

That is not an 'alternative explanation' since I never claimed anything else.
As I said before, consciousness IS a product of the brain, as long as we have a brain, but when we die and no longer have a brain, consciousness continues, since the soul is responsible for consciousness.

 

[Trailblazer]

Points 1-3 are claims about what the afterlife will be like!

No, 1-3 are statements about what the afterlife will not be like.
Nobody except God and His Messengers knows what the afterlife will be like.

 

[Trailblazer]

And there we have your classic internally contradictory statements again.
Is consciousness a product of the physical brain, or is it a product of the soul?

Nothing I said is contradictory.
I said: Consciousness IS a product of the brain, as long as we have a brain.
That means that consciousness is not a product of the soul. The soul animates the brain making consciousness possible.

There is no evidence that anything has any part in consciousness apart from the physical brain, so why would you claim that it does?

Hell if there isn't. In addition to religious scriptures there is plenty of evidence that there is consciousness apart from the brain, since people who were declared brain dead still had consciousness.

 

[Trailblazer]

What is the difference between a "spirit" and a "soul", in practical terms.
And where does the animal's "spirit" originate?
And why doesn't it continue after their death?

The soul is the human spirit.
Animals do not have a soul, they have an animal spirit.
Animals have an animal spirit that animates their brain and body, just as just as humans have a soul that animates their brain and body.
I believe the soul and the animal spirit comes from God.

I believe that the animal spirit continues after death, so I disagree with Abdu'l-Baha, who said it is extinguished at death.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not really. You have already told us that there is no sunrise or sunset (BIG disappointment tbh), that time works differently, and that we don't have physical bodies. That's a pretty good start for something that is "beyond understanding".

It is only a start, as we cannot understand how time exists in the spiritual world or what a spiritual body will be like. Moreover, we do not know what we will be doing or how we will do it, what we will see or how we will see it, or who we will see and how we will communicate with them.

There is, if you believe demons and gremlins exist. Can you prove they doesn't exist? No. So how are they any different to your version of god?

They are different in that there are no scriptures associated with them or written by them.

And there is no reason to believe there even is a soul - unless you believe in scriptures.

Or unless you believe there is life after death according to non-scriptural accounts.

Private Dowding
The Afterlife Revealed

 

[Trailblazer]

You must do, in order to claim that it is not like our time.
If you genuinely know nothing about it, then you cannot know it isn't like ours.

I can know time in the spiritual world is not like ours without knowing what time is like in the spiritual world.
The way I know that time in the spiritual world isn't like time in this world (isn't like ours) is from what Abdu'l-Baha said. That does not mean I know what time is like in the spiritual world.

Abdu'l-Baha said: "Time with us is measured by the sun. When there is no more sunrise, and no more sunset, that kind of time does not exist for man." He said that kind of time does not exist for man but he did not say what kind of time does exist.

"A friend asked: "How should one look forward to death?"

‘Abdu’l-Bahá answered: “How does one look forward to the goal of any journey? With hope and with expectation. It is even so with the end of this earthly journey. In the next world, man will find himself freed from many of the disabilities under which he now suffers. Those who have passed on through death, have a sphere of their own. It is not removed from ours; their work, the work of the Kingdom, is ours; but it is sanctified from what we call ‘time and place.’ Time with us is measured by the sun. When there is no more sunrise, and no more sunset, that kind of time does not exist for man. Those who have ascended have different attributes from those who are still on earth, yet there is no real separation." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, pp. 95-96

 

[Trailblazer]

And it's a pretty poor one.

No, it is perfectly logical.
Something that is not physical would have no evidence in a physical world. Duh.