Homosexuality and religious.

[KWED]

Well that's clear as mud.

"Bahai apologist contradicts their own argument" shock!

 

[Bree]

More mealy-mouthed excuses from people attempting to rationalise the homophobia in their religious/personal beliefs.

People are labelled "homophobic" if they express sentiments that are intolerant, prejudicial or discriminatory towards homosexuality or homosexuals.
People who have no opinion on the issue are not homophobes. Even people who say they could never have gay sex because they aren't sexually attracted to the same sex are not homophobes.
If you believe there is something innately "wrong" or "immoral" or "perverted" or "unnatural" about homosexuality, then you are a homophobe.
But don't despair! You can be cured of that psychological illness, with education and open-mindedness.

does anyone tolerate behaviors they disagree with? I dont think so.

And i think you are stretching it to claim mental illness for those who don't tolerate certain sexual acts. Im pretty sure there are some sexual acts that you don't tolerate.

 

[Bree]

Not according to some ideologies, including your own faith.

Of course you can hold a different opinion. But you must also expect to have that opinion examined.
Not all opinions are acceptable.
Remember when it was acceptable to hold the opinion that black people were inferior to white people? Or that women shouldn't be allowed to vote?
Well, the opinion that homosexuality is "immoral, shameful, unnatural", etc is part of that group of narrow-minded, uninformed, bigotry.

Hope this helped.

well it certainly hasnt changed my viewpoint

 

[Spirit of Light]

Isn't it better to just accept that people are different?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It is necessary if you want to communicate your position to me. If that is not what you are trying to do, then I have no interest in discussion.

The common ground is that we only share it is a limited sense, because for knowledge we do it differently. And if you understand that differently than me, we have in this case no common ground.

I am trying to show you limited cognitive relativism and how that applies also to knowledge. But your position is that knowledge is in effect X and that we must find common ground. But we can't because we think differently.
Then you demand that I must explain my position to you, but that entails that you think like me. But I can't do that for you, because that is something you must do.
But my point is that for all humanity there is no common ground for what knowledge is, but you demand that there must be common ground and my point is that there is no common ground.

So for you to understand that there is no common ground, you must be willing to accept that there is no common ground. Can you do that or do you believe for all humans for all times there is in effect one correct understanding of knowledge?

 

[Bree]

Isn't it better to just accept that people are different?

Its much better for mankind to all speak in agreement and all be on the same page so to speak.

Imagine if we did then we wouldnt have so much disunity and fighting among ourselves.

 

[KWED]

In the very distant future, should a clear majority of the world's population become Baha'i, the world may choose a Baha'i system of government.

Good luck with that!
With most religions you get "when you die, this will happen", but love that Bahaism says "in the long-distant future, if something happens, something else might happen".

 

[KWED]

If i believed man's philosophy I might go along with the idea that homosexual behavior is ok. As a Christian, i believe what the Bible says about this. To start, however, the Bible does disapprove of homosexual acts,still it does not condone hatred of homosexuals or homophobia. Christians are directed to respect everyone.—1 Peter 2:17
Also, 1 Corinthians 6:9 explicitly tells ME and those who respect the word of God (not saying you want to believe it) what God does not approve of.
"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men."

So presumably you go along with everything the Bible says, like the stoning to death of rebellious sons, killing people who work on the sabbath, slavery, etc?

 

[KWED]

Keep going...
Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.

Matthew 7:3-5 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

The reason for pointing out the homophobia in your religious beliefs is not to "hurt" you. It is to get you to think in a humane, compassionate, logical way. To realise that you are supporting intolerance and prejudice that does harm people, even to the point of taking their own lives.
Why can't you see that? Why do you think its all about you?

 

[KWED]

but homosexuality is not about that.

Its about sex.

And the reason i can say that is because I could do exactly the same thing with a friend of the same gender and not be inclined to have sexual relations with that person.
I can grow old with a female friend, live with a female friend, raise a child with a female friend and love my female friend. I can do all that without having sexual relations with that person.

You dont need to have sex with someone to love them or to raise a child with them or to live under the same roof.

You seem very confused. It's no more "about sex" than a heterosexual relationship. There is no difference, other than the genders of the individuals.

And are you claiming that heterosexual couples don't need to have sex in order to raise a family?

 

[Bree]

You seem very confused. It's no more "about sex" than a heterosexual relationship. There is no difference, other than the genders of the individuals.

And are you claiming that heterosexual couples don't need to have sex in order to raise a family?

Im sorry i am no mislead by that twisted logic.

God has given a man and a woman the ability to have a child together. Every child deserves to know its mother and father. Breeding children in testtubes and injecting them into foreign bodies was never intended to be a good way for any human to be brought into the world.

 

[KWED]

If you knew what you were talking about you wouldn’t say those things. It just shows your ignorance about what religion is all about.

What you are referring to is not what religion teaches but people acting contrary to what religion teaches.

Religion teaches love, unity, not to harm or hurt and to be kind and generous. No person faithful to his/her religion will deliberately harm or hurt someone. So the acts you refer to are against what all the religions teach.

Yeah, as usual with some apologists on here, you seem utterly incapable of understanding concepts.
The point is that your "loving, beautiful" god allows huge amounts of terrible suffering that any human with a shred of compassion would stop if they could. But god just watches and shrugs. He clearly doesn't care about the abused child or the baby with cancer or the trafficked sex slaves. The abusers' "free will" is more important that the suffering of the innocent .

 

[KWED]

not at all.

I accept the rules of the creator. He created us and gave us a framework to live within. When we step outside of that framework, we are sinning or falling below his standard.

All types of actions can be outside of Gods framework for mankind. Adultery, fornication, bestiality, murder, drunkeness, being verbally abusive, not looking after your children, stealing, killing animals for fun...

Knowing the rules that God has set requires knowledge of his laws and acceptance of them.

So you believe that people who work on the sabbath should be killed, and that slavery is ok, and that brides who aren't virgins should be stoned to death.
Nice "moral framework"!

 

[Bree]

The reason for pointing out the homophobia in your religious beliefs is not to "hurt" you. It is to get you to think in a humane, compassionate, logical way. To realise that you are supporting intolerance and prejudice that does harm people, even to the point of taking their own lives.
Why can't you see that? Why do you think its all about you?

do you not think that homosexuality harms people?

The people practicing it are harmed by it emotionally. If it was not harmful, there would not be so many suicides. We always hear of famous celebrities for example who have lived secretly as a homosexual for years, hiding their homosexuality and suffering depression and having suicidal thoughts. Think about it. They didnt become depressed and suicidal because everyone was persecuting them because of being homosexual.

Their own inner conscience was condemning them, forcing them into hiding for years. Lying about themselves, lying to themselves, lying to their families. The pain they felt as a 'closet gay' was all coming from within themselves.

Homosexuality is not good for us emotionally and spiritually. This is why God does not want people to practice it. He does love all of us and he does not want to see us hurt ourselves.

 

[Bree]

So you believe that people who work on the sabbath should be killed, and that slavery is ok, and that brides who aren't virgins should be stoned to death.
Nice "moral framework"!

those rules applied to the nation of Israel, no one else.

And those rules were taken away at the approriate time. They were for a very specific purpose and time.

 

[KWED]

there is the problem right there. Its the use of the word 'homophobic'
I dont think anyone is scared of homosexuals. No one has a fear of homosexual people.

This is an argument from dishonesty or ignorance. Either way, not a good look.
"Homophobic" means "dislike of or prejudice against gay people, holding negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality".

To label everyone who has the opinion that same gender sex is not good as 'homophobic' is not really accurate.

"Homosexual sex is not good" is a meaningless description. I could describe unsatisfactory sex between two men.
Interesting that homophobes often try to redefine their position as something that it is not. "But I just don't want to have gay sex". Fine. Neither do I. But I fully support the rights of people who do. I consider them no different to heterosexuals. Gay sex and relationships are natural and acceptable in civilised society.

Its just a bullying tactic designed to shut people up.

No. I am happy for you to try and explain your reasons for your attitudes towards homosexuality. Unfortunately it usually boils down to "cuz god sez!"

 

[KWED]

" living their life with the partner of their choice, making a life, raising a family and growing old together."
I think you are completely delusional if you thank anyone has a problem with that.

So you are fine with the idea and the practice of gay couples living just as heterosexual couples do. Dating, sex, marriage, children, family, etc.
Maybe you aren't a homophobe then?

 

[KWED]

Its because of insecurity I believe.
We are absolutely 100% sure that homosexuality is immoral and unacceptable because God has confirmed this with those who believe in Him. Those going out of their way to bully and intimidate those of us who see it for what it really is are very insecure because if they were so sure of themselves they wouldn’t care less if we considered it good or bad.

They want every person on earth to tell them they are on the right path while we do not need others to support our beliefs. We stand strong and firm while they are weak and insecure so feel the desperate need to bully others to agree with them and if we don’t then we are ‘infidels’ or homophobic. How laughable! Lol

This just illustrates the essentially selfish nature of religious belief. It is all about you, what reward do you get, what punishment can you avoid, and to hell with everyone else (literally!).
Some of us care about others though, especially those who are marginalised, discriminated against, suffer prejudice and hatred simply because of their nature or circumstance.

 

[Bree]

This is an argument from dishonesty or ignorance. Either way, not a good look.
"Homophobic" means "dislike of or prejudice against gay people, holding negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality".

If i have a phobia, i have an 'excessive extreme, irrational, fear or panic reaction about a situation, living creature, place or object.' according to one definition.

so is it 'homosexuality' or is it 'gay people'?

because the two are entirely different.

"Homosexual sex is not good" is a meaningless description. I could describe unsatisfactory sex between two men.
Interesting that homophobes often try to redefine their position as something that it is not. "But I just don't want to have gay sex". Fine. Neither do I. But I fully support the rights of people who do. I consider them no different to heterosexuals. Gay sex and relationships are natural and acceptable in civilised society.

No. I am happy for you to try and explain your reasons for your attitudes towards homosexuality. Unfortunately it usually boils down to "cuz god sez!"

Yes, pretty much it is because God said.

You are speaking to christians who have accepted Gods laws. If God said it was ok, then there would not be any problem with it. But there has always been a problem with it even among nations who do not have the bible because it is universally unacceptable. Universal laws stem from within mankinds conscience. They are like the natural laws that tell us murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, rape is wrong. These are universal because when God created us, he designed us in a very particular way. If we step outside of that design, our conscience starts to condemn us and this leads to an internal conflict.

No one can change that because its the way we've been designed.

 

[KWED]

No platitudes just facts. Religion teaches us to be virtuous and of upright character. There are thousands of texts which support this fact. To make such false accusations belies one’s complete ignorance.

No. Religion teaches you to blindly follow dogma. Things like "virtue", "character", etc are subjective concepts

This is only a tiny part of what religion teaches. It calls us to behave humanely and care for others.

Calling homosexuality "a shameful aberration" is not humane and caring behaviour towards homosexuals.