Homosexuality and religious.

[KWED]

Not at all. I’ll try and explain it another way. God, the Judge of all mankind has condemned certain behaviours among them homosexuality but told His followers to treat them with kindness and dignity as they are equal fellow human beings and that that.

"I condemneth homosexuals, but you musteth treateth them well, because you are more moral and just than I".

 

[KWED]

All references to war in the Quran are referring t9 self defense.

As I have explained several time now, they clearly are not.

2:190 And fight for the cause of God against those who fight against you: but commit not the injustice of attacking them first: God loveth not such injustice:

Kill them wherever you find them, and besiege them and ambush them".
If you ambush someone, you attack them first, by definition.
You cannot besiege someone in self defence.

How many times must I post this? It’s pretty clear that we are to uphold the dignity of homosexuals as individuals.

Yeah, by calling then evil, immoral, shameful aberration, handicap, against nature, to be purged from the world, etc.
Course you are.

 

[KWED]

I wouldn’t want to be without my mother or father. When my father abandoned us that ruined my life. Dangerous yes. I tried to commit suicide 6 times. I am a living witness to what happens to a person when they are deprived of their caring parents. Although I was closer to my mother yet the loss of my father of the opposite sex caused me to become extremely distraught.

As a child I needed both my mother and father. Every child needs that which a same sex marriage cannot provide as it will always lack the qualities of the opposite sex.

But your parent were heterosexuals, and their failed relationship caused you great harm.
Any yet, there are homosexual couples with children who remain a faithful, loving, responsible, caring couple.
So it clearly isn't homosexuality that is the issue.
Understand?

 

[KWED]

It’s just what we need.

Social leaders need to be pragmatists and rational as well as open-minded and creative. But they shouldn't be fantasists.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, we get that you don't understand how analogy works.

I know how an analogy works but torturing babies is not analogous to depriving people of sex.
That is why I said it was pathetic.

So just to be clear, you don't think that humans have an innate aversion to torturing babies. It's just a matter of individual opinion?
Yikes!

It is not a matter of opinion at all.... It is a matter of a person's character.
Most human beings would have an aversion to torturing babies unless they were psychopaths.

 

[Trailblazer]

No. It is the only rational position. There is no evidence to support the argument that it is wrong, and evidence to support the argument that it is not wrong.

It is not a rational position except by your estimation. It is just one position of two.

You cannot make this work.
There is no evidence to support the argument that it is right or wrong, it is only a matter of personal opinion or belief.

It is your ego, and nothing but your ego, that insists that it is right. You cannot understand that because your ego won't allow you to.

Indeed. You have nothing to support your opinion other than repeated assertions.
"It is wrong because it is wrong because it is wrong".

Indeed. You have nothing to support your opinion other than repeated assertions.
"It is right because it is right because it is right".

 

[Trailblazer]

I wouldn’t want to be without my mother or father. When my father abandoned us that ruined my life. Dangerous yes. I tried to commit suicide 6 times. I am a living witness to what happens to a person when they are deprived of their caring parents. Although I was closer to my mother yet the loss of my father of the opposite sex caused me to become extremely distraught.

My father died when I was 12 years old and I was never the same after that. He died suddenly of a heart attack and I have had PTSD ever since.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Calling it a choice implies there was an alternative, but the truth is such bigotry is deeply harmful, and offers gay people little choice, only to deny who they are which is obviously deeply damaging to any human being, and certainly involves prejudice against them from your religion that is morally unacceptable.

Luckily we have God to guide us as to what our moral human capacities are and what morals are a prompting from our own animal materialistic nature in this material world.

You do not agree, you prefer to see life in another way.

You to yours, me to mine. No one has to accept Baha'u'llah, it's a choice. Those that do will strive to live those values.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

So you don't understand the difference between sex and the other ways to produce a child?

Of course I understand but what's your point?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Bahaullah really thought quite highly of himself, don't he?

No, Baha'u'llah did not, it will require a quote, so Baha'u'llah can answer you directly.

“When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things ‘verily I am God!’; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!” 5

That says it all, but Baha'u'llah also offered this for you to consider.

"Think ye, O people, that I hold within My grasp the control of God’s ultimate Will and Purpose?… Had the ultimate destiny of God’s Faith been in Mine hands, I would have never consented, even though for one moment, to manifest Myself unto you, nor would I have allowed one word to fall from My lips. Of this God Himself is, verily, a witness..."

Such is the quandary of the Messenger.

Such is their Fate, as they definity know they will be dammed if they do!

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

It is a perfectly natural and harmless derivations of adult sexual desire.

It is natural but only in your opinion is it harmless. That is not a fact.

It's good to see you've stopped the pretence that your religion and it's adherents respect and love gay people anyway.

I have not stopped saying that because that is my position.
Jesus said to love the sinner but hate the sin. He also said to go and sin no more.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I would suggest that one discover what he believes through experience and skip the holy books to see if they conform to his beliefs. I didn't know what a humanist was until I was one. I threw out religious teaching and examined my moral intuitions (Golden Rule, utilitarianism) and the evidence of the world around me, applied reason to both, and developed a godless, empirical worldview based in human well-being. Later, I encountered two sources that looked very familiar to my belief set - Buddhism and its eightfold path, and the Affirmations of secular humanism, and realized that I was a secular humanist with much more in common with Buddha than any of the Abrahamic traditions. This was powerful evidence that I was on the right track, later confirmed by the results of its application.

I wish you all the best and much happiness in your chosen path.

We can work together in our diversity for the good of all.

Regards Tony

 

[ppp]

Agree to disagree on this one. That’s just your opinion.

It's also the opinion of the people who are the targets of that bigotry and prejudice. The ones who fight to get out of the yoke of oppression laid down by those who share your barbaric attitudes.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course we can, and rather tellingly no one promoting homophobia has been able to offer any objective evidence that being gay is harmful in any practical way.

Here is some objective evidence for you.

Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs) have been rising among gay and bisexual men, with increases in syphilis being seen across the country. In 2014, gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men accounted for 83% of primary and secondary syphilis cases where sex of sex partner was known in the United States. Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men often get other STDs, including chlamydia and gonorrhea infections. HPV (Human papillomavirus), the most common STD in the United States, is also a concern for gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men. Some types of HPV can cause genital and anal warts and some can lead to the development of anal and oral cancers. Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men are 17 times more likely to get anal cancer than heterosexual men. Men who are HIV-positive are even more likely than those who do not have HIV to get anal cancer.

Sexually Transmitted Diseases Among Gay and Bisexual Men | CDC

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"I condemneth homosexuals, but you musteth treateth them well, because you are more moral and just than I".

A fair question is who sets the standard?

Where do you go to find out the standard for a virtue and a moral?

What source can they be traced back to?

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Nonsense, how is suggesting gay people deserve to be treated equally a prejudice, that's another absurd and irrational contradiction.

That is not what I was talking about.
I said you have an opinion built on your own prejudice.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Here is some objective evidence for you.

Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs) have been rising among gay and bisexual men, with increases in syphilis being seen across the country. In 2014, gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men accounted for 83% of primary and secondary syphilis cases where sex of sex partner was known in the United States. Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men often get other STDs, including chlamydia and gonorrhea infections. HPV (Human papillomavirus), the most common STD in the United States, is also a concern for gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men. Some types of HPV can cause genital and anal warts and some can lead to the development of anal and oral cancers. Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men are 17 times more likely to get anal cancer than heterosexual men. Men who are HIV-positive are even more likely than those who do not have HIV to get anal cancer.

Sexually Transmitted Diseases Among Gay and Bisexual Men | CDC

I stayed away from answering the obvious.

This is also applicable to any multiple party sex exploitation.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

She means imaginary laws, from an imaginary deity.

No, I mean real Laws from the real deity.

 

[Trailblazer]

People have some choice over what they believe, they have none over being gay or straight.

That is debatable. There is no scientific evidence that proves that anyone is born gay, and new scientific evidence is to the contrary. It is a proclivity and a learned behavior. Learned behavior can be unlearned.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

But to try and force Baha’is to change their beliefs is unjust

I disagree. When the beliefs are unjust, to condone them is also unjust.

just as people are completely free to believe homosexuality is moral, we too are completely free to believe it is immoral.

And others are completely free to consider those who believe that and the religion that teaches it to them immoral, and to tell them that.

We say to them you go your way and we will go ours. But they are not happy with this. They seek to bash and bully and try and discredit us for not accepting their views.

You will never understand. I would like you to. I would like you to know that humanists will never condone religious bigotry or any other kind because it would be wrong to do so, and that it is your deity (or whomever writes in its name) that is the bully and homophobic basher, and we will never accept its views or those of its adherents who believe them.

Yet where do they get their views from that homosexuality is good or moral or right? Ask them? Where? From their own desires? From the ‘thoroughly rotten morals’ of a decadent society? From government? From homosexuals? From popular opinion?

No. From the application of reason to empathy and common decency. We are mostly humanists.

I really don’t look at people whether they are homosexual or trans or lesbian. I always see a fellow equal human.

Not credible. You might believe that because you feel no antipathy for gays, but that is not enough to claim that you view them as equals. The best you can do is to treat gays the same as straights.

I think homosexuals sometimes are too self conscious and not self accepting so walk around with a chip on their shoulder thinking the world rejects and hates them but that’s in their imagination. Maybe in the past.

That sounds like they're religious. Talk about crying persecution! Look at the comments on this thread begging others to lay off of them, describing dissent and debate as war and attack.

So, you think you know better than a gay person how the world treats them? How could they miss the fact that so much love and equality is being doled out to them and instead think that there are people who consider them defective in the eyes of a good god? You can see it, so why can't they? Oh, yeah - a chip on their shoulder.

Do you have no sense of how such a comment is understood?

What we have to achieve as humans is not to mistreat people because of their private preferences.

You first.

I think what’s really important is just to accept people the way they are

You first. And your god next.