Homosexuality and religious.

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Here is some objective evidence for you.

Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs) have been rising among gay and bisexual men, with increases in syphilis being seen across the country. In 2014, gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men accounted for 83% of primary and secondary syphilis cases where sex of sex partner was known in the United States. Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men often get other STDs, including chlamydia and gonorrhea infections. HPV (Human papillomavirus), the most common STD in the United States, is also a concern for gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men. Some types of HPV can cause genital and anal warts and some can lead to the development of anal and oral cancers. Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men are 17 times more likely to get anal cancer than heterosexual men. Men who are HIV-positive are even more likely than those who do not have HIV to get anal cancer.

Sexually Transmitted Diseases Among Gay and Bisexual Men | CDC

Why is your focus only on men? Do you not think that there are women who have sex with women?

Here's a little secret for you -- gay women who have sex only with other women have the lowest incidence of STDs. This must, by your reasoning, make them more moral than anybody.

What you ignore (of course, and we've had this talk before and you will ignore again and again ad infinitum) is a simple little contributor to all your stats: men are much readier to hop into the sack at the drop of a zipper than women are. Thus, gay men are simply getting more sex than anybody who who is hoping to get a woman into bed.

It's not the fact that they're same-gender that's causing STDs. It's the availability of ready-and-willing partners, thus the actual number of sexual encounters.

 

[Sheldon]

If it floats your boat to blame someone, go on ahead.

Like your religions and gay people you mean? This is of course just a lazy ad hominem, try addressing what you actually said. A retraction of that shameful post would be a start, and an abject apology to any posters here who happen to be gay. Here's a quote then for context:

If you present a reasonable and cogent argument for why homosexuality if not evil, shameful, unnatural, should be purged, etc - then I will consider it.

Purged, really? Dear oh dear....

 

[Sheldon]

men are much readier to hop into the sack at the drop of a zipper than women are. Thus, gay men are simply getting more sex than anybody who who is hoping to get a woman into bed.

I've often wondered if some of the bigoted vitriol and lazy stereotyping addressed to gay men, has something to with petty jealousy. Lets face it, no matter what puritanical bigots say publicly, they all secretly wish they were getting more.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course they can, the Nazis held very strong opinions about Jews, that like the religious bigotry and homophobia expressed by the Bahai religion, were deeply pernicious lies.

The views did not kill people, the Nazis did.

More of that love and respect we keep hearing about, maybe if religions and religious bigots stopped lying that gay people were "evil sexual aberrations that should be purged", a lot of them would feel a lot less guilty. Treated humanely and as equals, gay people would not feel guilty, why would they after all, outside of the warped fetid imaginings of religious bigotry and intolerance.

The Baha'i Faith does not say that gay people are "evil sexual aberrations that should be purged". The Baha'i Writings refer to the sexual conduct, not the people.

Most homosexuals do not even know what the Baha'i Faith is so that is not making them feel guilty.
That is besides the point that people are responsible for their own feelings.

No they aren't there is ample evidence that gay people contribute as much as straight people to the societies they live in, and this while being persecuted for who they are.

You are shifting the goalposts. We are not discussing contributions to society, we are discussing sexual behavior. I never claimed that gay people contribute any less to society.

 

[Trailblazer]

By describing them as immoral, evil sexual aberrations, that are against nature, or even that they should be purged?

Careful, it is the behavior that is described as such, not the people.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
It's good to see you've stopped the pretence that your religion and it's adherents respect and love gay people anyway.

I have not stopped saying that because that is my position.

Then you'd need to retract this appalling post:

Trailblazer said: ↑
If you present a reasonable and cogent argument for why homosexuality if not evil, shameful, unnatural, should be purged, etc - then I will consider it.

Yes all very respectful and loving, as anyone can see. Who doesn't feel loved when someone suggests they are evil, shameful, and unnatural, and should be purged?

 

[Sheldon]

The views did not kill people, the Nazis did.

Ah so you think it's a coincidence they held the views, and the killing had nothing to do with it?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I've often wondered if some of the bigoted vitriol and lazy stereotyping addressed to gay men, has something to with petty jealousy. Lets face it, no matter what puritanical bigots say publicly, they all secretly wish they were getting more.

Actually, my best friend -- a very, very heterosexual man, with two of the best kids I've ever known -- confided to me that he really wished he could get into guys when he was younger, for exactly that reason.

(As he happens also to be totally gorgeous, I confess I might have approved. Alas, however...)

 

[Sheldon]

The Baha'i Faith does not say that gay people are "evil sexual aberrations that should be purged".

You said it:

Trailblazer said: ↑
If you present a reasonable and cogent argument for why homosexuality if not evil, shameful, unnatural, should be purged, etc - then I will consider it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Did you ever hear a self proclaimed prophet who didn't have a massive ego,

The false self-proclaimed prophets have a big ego but the true self-proclaimed prophets all say they are like nothing compared to God. Only God is good.

 

[Sheldon]

Most homosexuals do not even know what the Baha'i Faith is so that is not making them feel guilty.

So it's ok to say anything you want, as long as the people you're saying it about don't generally hear it? Strongly disagree... The majority of Jewish people never met a Nazis, that doesn't make their (Nazis) views ok.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

If you present a reasonable and cogent argument for why homosexuality if not evil, shameful, unnatural, should be purged, etc - then I will consider it.

You have no argument, all you have is a personal opinion.

The only reason I need is because God says. I need no other reason.

Then you are saying (because your statement was in the form of "if....then") that you do in fact consider homosexuality to be "evil, shameful, unnatural, should be purged, etc."

What part of that "purged" is also a part of your vaunted Baha'i faith?

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
No they aren't there is ample evidence that gay people contribute as much as straight people to the societies they live in, and this while being persecuted for who they are.

You are shifting the goalposts.

Rubbish, here's your claim then:

Trailblazer said: ↑
The opinions expressed that gay people are moral or not an aberration are just that, merely opinions, unsupported by any objective evidence, and relying solely on personal opinions.

Helping the world defeat Nazism seems pretty moral to me, maybe you think differently.

 

[Sheldon]

We are not discussing contributions to society, we are discussing sexual behavior.

Nope, that is just facile reasoning that religious homophobes use to express lazy stereotypes. Your argument was that there is no evidence gay people are moral, maybe you think helping the world defeat Nazism wasn't moral? Alan Turing arguably contributed more than anyone to defeating Nazism, ipso facto he was moral, he was also gay, and also persecuted for who he was until he committed suicide. Now do you think he was treated fairly or justly? Lets not forget you have claimed to need a valid reason not to purge gay people?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The opinions expressed that gay people are moral or not an aberration are just that, merely opinions, unsupported by any objective evidence, and relying solely on personal opinions.

One can't help but notice that you are becoming nastier. Change "gay people" to "straight people" or "Baha'i people" or "tall people" or anything else you like, and it would make no difference. People aren't "moral," and people are not "an aberration" just because they are gay, straight, Baha'i, tall or anything else. They are moral because they do right by their fellow human beings, and they are aberrations only when their actual behaviours -- in doing harm to others -- makes them so.

 

[Sheldon]

Careful, it is the behavior that is described as such, not the people.

Homosexuality is not a behaviour, it is part of who a person is. How would you feel if someone said Bahai's were evil and unnatural and needed to be purged, then they weaselled out of that claim by saying they meant the religion, not the adherents of it, would you feel "respected and loved"? Come on, for goodness sake, and your beliefs involve some choice on your part, being gay does not.

 

[Sheldon]

The false self-proclaimed prophets have a big ego but the true self-proclaimed prophets all say they are like nothing compared to God. Only God is good.

Nope, they're all the same, but please do present an objective difference in their claims, one that doesn't involve because you believe it, or unevidenced appeals to mystery.

 

[Sheldon]

What part of that "purged" is also a part of your vaunted Baha'i faith?

Oh I suspect that post will be swept firmly under the rug, and or involve playing the misrepresented victim.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
People have some choice over what they believe, they have none over being gay or straight.

That is debatable.

No it isn't, but either way would it be too much to hope that for once you actually debate it, rather making a sweeping unevidenced claim?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Homosexuality is not a behaviour anymore than heterosexuality is, and there is no objective evidence for any deity, let alone that it has condemned anything. Though the irony this perfect deity people keep imaging, shares the obviously human failings of ignorance, prejudices and bigotries like homophobia, is pretty hard to miss.

Telling people who they are is immoral, unless they deny who they are, isn't respectful, and singling out gay people for this is hardly treating them equally, it's pretty absurd to claim it is. As KWED pointed out, you are contradicting yourself.

You are fully entitled to your opinion. I have absolute certitude in the infallibility of Baha’u’llah. So you go your way and I’ll go mine.