Homosexuality and religious.

[CG Didymus]

Doesn't this show that gay marriages support a healthy society where orphans are adopted?

Yes

Wait a minute though, God says, through his manifestation Baha'u'llah, that there is not supposed to be gay marriages. And what exactly would Baha'is do with a gay couple, that had a family of adopted children, that wanted to join the Baha'i Faith? Would they be told they can't unless they get a divorce or one of them gets a sex change?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The opinion held by atheists that homosexuality is not wrong is a personal opinion and not a fact.
The opinion held by believers that homosexuality is wrong is a belief and not a fact.

Out of curiosity -- could you provide a statement of what might be "objectively wrong about homosexuality?"

That way, we could perhaps move beyond opinion nad belief -- and find our way finally, to FACT.

 

[F1fan]

The other solution is to accept the teaching and realize it was not a mistake because it came from God, and an infallible God cannot make any mistakes.

Well, no Gods come forth to verify these beliefs are absolute and true. All we have is mortals, and without any evidence they are any more special than the next fellow. So, back to abandoning Bahai as a sound moral decision.

 

[Trailblazer]

And even "obstinate" implies a refusal to entertain other arguments.

That describes you.

If you present a reasonable and cogent argument for why homosexuality if evil, shameful, unnatural, should be purged, etc - then I will consider it.

If you present a reasonable and cogent argument for why homosexuality if not evil, shameful, unnatural, should be purged, etc - then I will consider it.

You have no argument, all you have is a personal opinion.

However, thus far all you have presented is "cuz god sez!"

The only reason I need is because God says. I need no other reason.

 

[Trailblazer]

More denial of reality.
Homosexuality is observed in many species.

So what? Humans are not like other species. Humans were created in the image of God, other species were not.

It occurs naturally, in the natural world. Therefore it is natural. By definition.

So what? That does not make it moral. God decides what is moral, not you.

What is your argument for it being unnatural? "Cuz god sez!", by any chance?

It is natural, but that does not mean it is moral. Natural does not equate to moral.

When Shoghi Effendi said it is against nature, he was not referring to our physical nature, he was referring to our spiritual nature, which is who we are. To act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man.

 

[F1fan]

That describes you.

If you present a reasonable and cogent argument for why homosexuality if not evil, shameful, unnatural, should be purged, etc - then I will consider it.

There are theists who believe any type of sex is shameful and disgusting.

You have no argument, all you have is a personal opinion.

And that is what Bahai offers, an opinion. And one built on prejudice.

The only reason I need is because God says. I need no other reason.

But God doesn't say this. A person who claims to be a messenger does, and you can't be certain homophobia isn't the messenger's prejudice.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is a fact to me as I define moral and immoral. One needs to demonstrate harm to call homosexuality immoral. Some opinions are facts, and some opinions are incorrect. What's an opinion is that is not a fact is that a deity condemned homosexuality, without which the condemnation of homosexuals is immoral.

It is an opinion to you as you define moral and immoral. It is not a fact.
Harm to the soul is not demonstrable, yet it is the worst kind of harm. That is my belief, not a fact.

Fact: a thing that is known or proved to be true.
what is a fact - Google Search

An opinion could be based on fact or knowledge, but your opinion isn’t based on fact or knowledge.

Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. opinion meaning - Google Search

Opinions and beliefs are not facts unless they are known or proved to be true. You cannot know or prove that homosexuality is harmless and I cannot know or prove it is harmful. Thus your opinions and my beliefs are not facts.

God can condemn whatever He chooses to condemn, because He is God and has all power.
You can ignore that condemnation if you choose to since you have free will.
That is my belief, not a fact.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Wait a minute though, God says, through his manifestation Baha'u'llah, that there is not supposed to be gay marriages. And what exactly would Baha'is do with a gay couple, that had a family of adopted children, that wanted to join the Baha'i Faith? Would they be told they can't unless they get a divorce or one of them gets a sex change?

If people want to embrace and join the Baha'i Faith CG, then they would most likely already be aware of the following quoted advice from Baha'u'llah.

"...The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.."

So both the Couple and the Local Spritual Assembly would most likely already have had discussions and solutions accepted.

This journey is more than recognition, it requires action as well.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Opinions and beliefs are not facts unless they are known or proved to be true. You cannot know or prove that homosexuality is harmless and I cannot know or prove it is harmful. Thus your opinions and my beliefs are not facts.

There are aspects that Science have investigated, so at this stage there is science available on certain aspects, some benefits, some harmful.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

There are theists who believe any type of sex is shameful and disgusting.

I am not one of those theists.

And that is what Bahai offers, an opinion. And one built on prejudice.

That is also what atheists offer, an opinion, one built on prejudice.

 

[Trailblazer]

Out of curiosity -- could you provide a statement of what might be "objectively wrong about homosexuality?"

That way, we could perhaps move beyond opinion nad belief -- and find our way finally, to FACT.

No, I cannot provide that.
Out of curiosity -- could you provide a statement of what might be "objectively right about homosexuality?"

That way, we could perhaps move beyond opinion and belief -- and find our way finally, to FACT.

 

[Trailblazer]

Bahai teachings claim it is unnatural. You claimed it is unnatural. Now you admit it is natural.
I would say that we are getting somewhere, but you'll only deny you said it on the next page.

It is natural, but that does not mean it is moral. Natural does not equate to moral.

When Shoghi Effendi said it is unnatural, he was not only referring to our physical nature, he was also referring to our spiritual nature, which is who we are. To act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man.

 

[YoursTrue]

What makes a belief acceptable?
What people accept or reject is a personal decision based on their personal opinion.
Just because you don't accept a belief that does not mean it is not acceptable...
It is not acceptable to you and other people who think like you, but it is acceptable to others.

That is why, according to the Bible, there is only one true God. And it is this God that Jesus prayed to. John 17:3 - "This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ."
I know it doesn't make sense to everybody, just as it did not as written in the Bible, there were many who had a form of worship, but not according to the standards set by the only true God as Jesus spoke about.

 

[Trailblazer]

A gay man can have sex with a gay woman. Being gay doesn't change your reproductive biology, you know.

I said a man having sex with a man or a woman having sex with a woman.

 

[YoursTrue]

Teaching children how to avoid unwanted pregnancies and protect themselves and others from potentially fatal and life altering std's, isn't teaching moral behaviour in your view?\

You think it's teaching morality to children? I don't know about now as to what or how schools are teaching things pertaining to conduct, or taking drugs, but if someone warns children that may be unsuspecting about fentanyl, you think that's teaching morality??

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

No, I cannot provide that.
Out of curiosity -- could you provide a statement of what might be "objectively right about homosexuality?"

That way, we could perhaps move beyond opinion and belief -- and find our way finally, to FACT.

Yes, I think I can, actually. I am "objectively" a human being. I have existence. I possess a nature much like all of the other members of my species, which includes sharing the needs and desires of that species. I must eat and drink. I must breathe. I need to depend on others of my kind for support so that I can thrive in the world. As a social animal, I need association with others, as do we all.

And I need to respond to the needs of both my body and my psyche -- as I presume you do, but if you disagree, please explain how you get by without paying heed to those needs.

And therefore, while it might not satisfy someone else's desire for what the outcome of my sexual activity results in, it does -- both subjectively and objectively (since I have a partner involved) -- create a good that satisfies us both. And does so without even a hint of cost to any other living thing on this planet.

Now, if you can find the way to refute that, please do. I'll be fascinated to learn how making love to my lover has affected you in any way whatever.

 

[Trailblazer]

The suffering and risk to life caused by bigotry and religious homophobia isn't JUST an opinion, it is amply supported by objective evidence.

So what? Opinions don't kill people. If people feel guilty about their behavior they kill themselves and others blame religionists..

The opinions expressed that gay people are immoral or an aberration is just that, merely an opinion, unsupported by any objective evidence, and relying solely on ignorance, dogma and doctrine.

The opinions expressed that gay people are moral or not an aberration are just that, merely opinions, unsupported by any objective evidence, and relying solely on personal opinions.

 

[CG Didymus]

@ CG Didymus

This was raised by Baha'u'llah in the Kitab-i-iqan, a story about Muhammad and how men change the Word of God.

".. Among them is the story of Ibn-i-Ṣúríyá. When the people of Khaybar asked the focal center of the Muḥammadan Revelation concerning the penalty of adultery committed between a married man and a married woman, Muḥammad answered and said: “The law of God is death by stoning.” Whereupon they protested saying: “No such law hath been revealed in the Pentateuch.” Muḥammad answered and said: “Whom do ye regard among your rabbis as being a recognized authority and having a sure knowledge of the truth?” They agreed upon Ibn-i-Súríyá. Thereupon Muḥammad summoned him and said: “I adjure thee by God Who clove the sea for you, caused manna to descend upon you, and the cloud to overshadow you, Who delivered you from Pharaoh and his people, and exalted you above all human beings, to tell us what Moses hath decreed concerning adultery between a married man and a married woman.” He made reply: “O Muḥammad! death by stoning is the law.” Muḥammad observed: “Why is it then that this law is annulled and hath ceased to operate among the Jews?” He answered and said: “When Nebuchadnezzar delivered Jerusalem to the flames, and put the Jews to death, only a few survived. The divines of that age, considering the extremely limited number of the Jews, and the multitude of the Amalekites, took counsel together, and came to the conclusion that were they to enforce the law of the Pentateuch, every survivor who hath been delivered from the hand of Nebuchadnezzar would have to be put to death according to the verdict of the Book. Owing to such considerations, they totally repealed the penalty of death.” Meanwhile Gabriel inspired Muḥammad’s illumined heart with these words: “They pervert the text of the Word of God..."

Regards Tony

So, because Baha'u'llah said that... does that make that story true?

 

[YoursTrue]

Muhammad said that people who die fighting in Allah's cause get a special place in paradise. It is also stated in the Quran.
Bahais believe that the Quran is the word of god and Muhammad was a genuine messenger, so pick the bones out of that!

I don't have to pick the bones out of those ideas. I only know when I finally listened to what Jehovah's Witnesses were saying, it's like a cloud lifted from my heart. Of course, that's not everybody's experience. It was and still is mine.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You think it's teaching morality to children? I don't know about now as to what or how schools are teaching things pertaining to conduct, or taking drugs, but if someone warns children that may be unsuspecting about fentanyl, you think that's teaching morality??

Why not? We teach them about the dangers of traffic on the street, and how they shouldn't run in front of cars. Why can't we talk to them about other conduct? Why can't we acknowledge (and I think this is the thing we leave out most often, to our sorrow) that drugs and other activities happen -- but can lead to disaster?

At the end of the day, what's actually wrong with a kid who knows about things that are dangerous to him or her?