Homosexuality and religious.

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Opinions don't kill people. If people feel guilty about their behavior they kill themselves and others blame religionists..

Why do they feel guilty about being gay? Religionists. Look at this thread. The Baha'i have all lined up in agreement that if their god says gays need to change, they need to change. They won't say so explicitly, but they also won't disavow the dogma, which is at a minimum to condone it. You've been asking for evidence that homosexuality is not immoral, yet don't see the role of religionists here. Where else does that idea that gays are somehow defective in the eyes of a good god come from? Dominoe's Pizza? Is it in their commercials or on their brochures? Maybe its Major League Baseball. Are they telling the world that homosexuality is a moral issue? How about science? Is there a theory of homosexual decadence I haven't seen yet? Maybe it's coming from Hollywood. Nope. It's pretty liberal and pretty gay. The public schools? Is it in the public curriculum, perhaps in health class? Not to my knowledge. The homophobia must be coming from somewhere else. I know - video games. They're the source of that homophobia? No, you say? I wouldn't know, since I stopped playing them in the eighties. How about the hospitality industry? I haven't seen much homophobia there except in the drawer with the Gideon's Bible. What, then?

It's the Abrahamic religions, which is where one can find the homophobia in writing and attributed to a god.

Here is some objective evidence for you. Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs) have been rising among gay and bisexual men

This is not evidence that homosexuality is wrong or dangerous.

I'm gay and I've dealt with homophobic prejudice and ignorance all my life.

Hopefully, you know where it came from.

Then I discovered this great religion when I was a university student. It was so good I didn't bother to ask anyone about what this religion taught about sexuality. Nor did I research what this religion taught about homosexuality before signing up.

You thought a religion was good that you didn't understand yet? You're not alone on RF. So why did you give up your homosexual pursuits? Did somebody convince you that you were defective, maybe so much that it grieved you and made you cry, made you ashamed, and you felt like you needed to fix yourself? How did your family feel about you?

Why would a gay couple with children want to join a religion whose laws prohibit homosexual behaviour?

Because they embraced it without first finding out what it teaches as you did?

 

[Trailblazer]

Calling religious dogma a "law" is dangerous and immoral. It suggests some dogma has an authority over society as a whole, and it doesn't. It's also worthless in debate because it carries no significance.

No, it does not suggest that. Baha'i Laws only apply to Baha'is.
Personal opinions are no different from religious beliefs. They also carry no significance in a debate.

It also implies that believers in Bahai don't have any option to reject immoral beliefs and "law" if it goes against their own moral sense. If the prophet says gays are to be condemned then it is a toxic theology.

Baha'u'llah does not say that gays are to be condemned, only the sexual behavior is condemned.

 

[Trailblazer]

And as you pointed out earlier opinions are not exclusive of facts.

I also pointed out that not all personal opinions are facts.

 

[Trailblazer]

But they can. That has already been explained to you.

No, opinions do not kill people, people kill themselves.

For someone who claims to be all about love, brotherhood, tolerance, etc, that's a pretty hateful attitude.

I have no hateful attitude. As Jesus said, love the sinner but hate the sin.

But they are more than "just opinion". They are "the infallible word of god" according to you, and every other Bahai. You believe that those "opinions" are objective truth that you agree with. And you are implicitly telling any gay person that they are evil, immoral, shameful aberration, handicapped, etc.
How would you feel if someone told you that is what your personality is?

I have a right to my beliefs just as you have a right to your opinions.
I am not telling anybody anything. You are the one doing all the talking.

 

[ppp]

I also pointed out that not all personal opinions are facts.

That doesn't help your case.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have, and others have, and you rejected them "cuz god sez", and god is always right.

You have presented no such argument. All you have are biased personal opinions.
I say "because God says" and you say "because I say." Big difference.

 

[Trailblazer]

That doesn't help your case.

I have no case.

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh look! I could have saved myself the effort of explaining that you are "obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction"
And that you are "prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group"
What was the term for that description again?

Describes you to a tee since you are "obstinately or unreasonably attached to your opinion about homosexuality" and you are "prejudiced against or antagonistic toward people on the basis of their membership of a particular group" that group being the Baha'i Faith.

So glad we had this talk.

 

[Trailblazer]

They are in some respects. The important one here is that they occur in nature, therefore whatever traits they display are "natural".

So what? Natural does not equate to moral.

So god looks like and behaves like us? So he is a bit gay.

When I said that humans were created in the image of God, this has nothing to do with physical appearance.
I meant that we have the potential to reflect the attributes of God such as love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice. These are all expressions of our spiritual nature. Every good habit, every noble quality, belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature.

So every human has the potential to behave like God. People live up to that potential if thye strive for it, and to various degrees. Nobody can be as good as God, not even Jesus.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

It makes it natural. So Bahai teachings are wrong on that account.

Natural does not mean moral. I suggest you consult a dictionary.

It is natural for animals to kill other animals in the wild and there is nothing moral or immoral about that since lower animals are not subject to morality. Only humans are subject to being moral.

moral: concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character. moral means - Google Search

Not for civilised society he doesn't.

Sorry, you lose. Most people believe in God so the standards of morality in a civilized society are based upon religion, not upon what atheists believe.

But you have no idea why anything is moral, so your opinion on the issue is worthless.

I know why anything is moral, because God sets the standards for morality.
It is you who has no idea why anything is moral. You just think it is moral because you think it is not immoral, but your opinion on the issue is only an opinion.

So homosexuals are like "beasts of the field" are they? Another bigoted claim that I can add to the list of Bahaism's homophobia.
Careful now, your mask is slipping again (not that everyone can't see past it anyway).

Straw man. I said that to act as beasts of the field is unworthy of man, and that includes any sexual behavior that is contrary to what God has allowed. It certainly is not restricted to homosexuals, as there is much more 'contrary' heterosexual behavior.

 

[Sheldon]

I know how an analogy works but torturing babies is not analogous to depriving people of sex.

It is in the sense they are both wrong or harmful. A pear is not an apple, but analogously they are both fruit, see? It seems you really don't understand analogies. Analogous doesn't mean they are the identical...

 

[Sheldon]

It is not a matter of opinion at all.... It is a matter of a person's character.
Most human beings would have an aversion to torturing babies unless they were psychopaths.

This is increasingly true of most human beings attitude towards homophobic hate speech, go figure.

 

[Sheldon]

Indeed. You have nothing to support your opinion other than repeated assertions.

 

[Sheldon]

It is not a rational position except by your estimation.

Which principle of logic did he violate?

 

[Trailblazer]

Bahaullah really thought quite highly of himself, don't he?

No, He only thought highly of God, and claimed to be a Servant of God.
He considered Himself as utter nothingness in the face of God.

Referring to the Messengers of God collectively, Baha’u’llah wrote that they are all Servants of God, God, and God is Him Who is the Innermost Spirit of Spirits and Eternal Essence of Essences.

“They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and the “Hidden”—all of which pertain to Him Who is the Innermost Spirit of Spirits and Eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say, “We are the Servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.

Were the eye of discernment to be opened, it would recognize that in this very state, they have considered themselves utterly effaced and non-existent in the face of Him Who is the All-Pervading, the Incorruptible. Methinks, they have regarded themselves as utter nothingness, and deemed their mention in that Court an act of blasphemy. For the slightest whispering of self within such a Court is an evidence of self-assertion and independent existence…….

By virtue of this station they have claimed for themselves the Voice of Divinity and the like, whilst by virtue of their station of Messengership, they have declared themselves the Messengers of God.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 54-56

 

[Sheldon]

Indeed. You have nothing to support your opinion other than repeated assertions.
"It is right because it is right because it is right".

Do I need another meme to illustrate the irony?

 

[Trailblazer]

If nothing can be found wrong with a behaviour, it is therefore acceptable.

Do you have any evidence for heterosexuality being "right"?

God is the only one who can decide what is right or wrong.
Heterosexual behavior is "right" in its proper context, which is marriage between a man and a woman.

 

[Trailblazer]

You wrongly assumed that sex between two homosexual people must be same sex.

No, I did not assume that.

 

[Trailblazer]

"So what if my bigotry leads to a gay person taking their own life?"
Can you even hear yourself?

If it floats your boat to blame someone, go on ahead.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm done with you.

I certainly hope so.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
Calling it a choice implies there was an alternative, but the truth is such bigotry is deeply harmful, and offers gay people little choice, only to deny who they are which is obviously deeply damaging to any human being, and certainly involves prejudice against them from your religion that is morally unacceptable.

Luckily we have God to guide us as to what our moral human capacities are

I don't believe you, especially since you just ignored my post pointing out the very human failings of what you have decided are divine moral diktats.

and what morals are a prompting from our own animal materialistic nature in this material world.

That's a false claim, homosexuality is evidenced throughout the animal kingdom, you don't get to ignore this or pretend it is not therefore natural. Though the real irony is religious apologists pretend natural equates to good, and unnatural as bad. I'm guessing you don't wear shoes then, or clothes, or drive, or heat your house, or have a house, or cook your food or...well you get the idea.

You do not agree, you prefer to see life in another way.

Nice try, but it is you are indulging a preference here, but by all means change my mind, and show me you are capable of morality by reasoning that persecuting the easy target of a harmless minority, based on nothing but blind pernicious dogma is pernicious, and therefore wrong.

You to yours, me to mine.

Nope, you don't get to ringfence beliefs, especially deeply pernicious homophobia from criticism in this dismissive way. believe what you want, but express it here and you have debate it, even you whose posts are generally made up of dismissive platitudes.

No one has to accept Baha'u'llah, it's a choice.

Given the vile hate speech espoused here, that is something to be grateful for, however it doesn't make that homophobic bigotry any less pernicious. If you're suggesting I look the other way, that is a moral impossibility. On the bright side, were you being equally persecuted I'd also object. Though of course one can shed a belief, whereas a person cannot deny who they are, which is what your religion is demanding of gay people.