Homosexuality and religious.

[loverofhumanity]

It's not just an opinion though, obviously.



Written by a human.



About what?



That's not a fact, it is unevidenced speculation.



Bigoted homophobic educators who plagiarise archaic superstitions? I'd need some compelling objective evidence for their claims, have you any? In fact lets save some bandwidth and go straight to the most compelling piece of objective evidence you believe you have?

You have your own mind to think with so why don’t you investigate these things for yourself? If you have already done so and come to the conclusion that you are right and I am wrong then nothing I say will convince you.

Each individual can only find truth for himself not another. You must investigate truth for yourself and be content with the result of your investigation. I cannot do your thinking for you as you have to answer your own specific questions.

Life is a journey. We are always learning new things. But only you can teach yourself. I cannot teach or prove anything to anyone but myself.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

There is no dodge, just cautious as what to offer.

Regards Tony

Was caution what Baha'u'llah thought important?

 

[CG Didymus]

Our beliefs harm no one.

Watch the video about a gay Baha'i in Vinayaka's post #1518. There is pain in that guy's heart by the way he was treated by other Baha'is and by the NSA.

 

[Vinayaka]

Reading through the threads, it struck me as ironic that the folks truly impacted by this discussion weren't present. The folks I refer to are gay Baha'i, or gay folks looking into the faith. You had mentioned one person still active, but that seemed like confirmation bias to me, so I did my digging. Just today I found another one, which is an entire channel chronicling the struggles and challenges of gay Baha'i. You might be interested.

I've long been an advocate of LGBQT rights, and am encouraged that since 2006 the number of countries where there are laws discriminating against homosexuality has dropped from 92 to 70. That shows some progress, but obviously we still have a long ways to go. It will be interesting to me to follow the fellow in the video, to see if he gets any shifts in policy within your faith community.

Edited to add ... world map, document showing where it's sill illegal.
Nations with anti-LGBT laws: 49% Muslim, 44% Christian

Post bump so people will see it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I prefer black grapes to green, since we seem to be introducing irrelevant non sequiturs.

I think you missed my point. The Messengers do have Their Fingers on the pulse of humanity and do prescribe very relevant teachings for our age. I included some examples. And these examples are spot on.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

A Baha'i adulterer isn't not going to be as easily known. Gays came out and asked the world to deal with it. Watch the video that is linked in Vinayaka's post #1518. It shows that the Baha'i Faith doesn't want to deal with them.

I do not expect many will look beyond the current trends in sexual orientation and gender identity issues. There will be much more scientific research in the future.

I do not need to look at videos that are made by disgruntled Baha'i CG. The laws are plain and simple. They hold to a high standard of morality and it is the elected Universal House of Justice that will guide us on this matter in the future.

Basically this argument is between those people and God, not me, or any Baha'i in fact.

I will most likely not offer much else here, it is pointless. This will not change the Baha'i Law.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

So logically, what we can infer from that -- out here in the real world -- is that the "Manifestation of God" only appears to people who want to become rich by bilking the gullible. Pass the collection plate!

Baha’is use all their own resources. We cannot take money from non members and contributions are all voluntary and secret, no collection plates here.

 

[CG Didymus]

Justice is what is most important. Everyone should be treated justly and fairly but Justice can also mean preventing a war criminal from continually committing genocide so intervention might be required.

But not everyone has been treated justly and fairly. Some groups of people haven't been treated justly or fairly. How would the Baha'i Faith judge what has happened to the native people in your country, Australia and in my country, the U.S.? What would be just and fair?

And is it fair to lump homosexuality with adultery?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Was caution what Baha'u'llah thought important?

Baha'u'llah did indeed guide us to only share the Message with wisdom and not offer more than people can take.

"O SON OF DUST! The wise are they that speak not unless they obtain a hearing, even as the cup-bearer, who proffereth not his cup till he findeth a seeker, and the lover who crieth not out from the depths of his heart until he gazeth upon the beauty of his beloved. Wherefore sow the seeds of wisdom and knowledge in the pure soil of the heart, and keep them hidden, till the hyacinths of divine wisdom spring from the heart and not from mire and clay.."

Unfortunately, this is a public forum, many people can see this. Personally I do not offer subjects like this anymore on public forums.

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

Maybe I have, maybe that is why one finds God?

Regards Tony

Nope, you must have ignored or not read much of the thread for your claim to be a candid opinion. Your belief in a deity is not relevant to the claim.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Fertility rates of heterosexual couples over a one year period are about 80 - 85%. Fertility rates for homosexual couples over a one year period are exactly 0 %. Science establishes a strong co-relationship between fertility and heterosexual intercourse and a non-existent relationship between homosexuality and fertility.

If you're so into fertility, maybe you should be worshipping Isis. I mean, that was one of her responsibilities.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Nope, you must have ignored or not read much of the thread for your claim to be a candid opinion. Your belief in a deity is not relevant to the claim.

It is100% applicable. With no God, there is no Law.

No more needs to be offered.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not need to look at videos that are made by disgruntled Baha'i

How do you know he is "disgruntled? Why judge him without hearing his side of what happened to him? Is that the Baha'i way of doing things? It's probably not supposed to be, but it becomes what happens.

People get labeled troublemakers and disgruntled when all the had to do is follow the Baha'i laws and change their gayness for straightness.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Baha'u'llah did indeed guide us to only share the Message with wisdom and not offer more than people can take.

"O SON OF DUST! The wise are they that speak not unless they obtain a hearing, even as the cup-bearer, who proffereth not his cup till he findeth a seeker, and the lover who crieth not out from the depths of his heart until he gazeth upon the beauty of his beloved. Wherefore sow the seeds of wisdom and knowledge in the pure soil of the heart, and keep them hidden, till the hyacinths of divine wisdom spring from the heart and not from mire and clay.."

Unfortunately, this is a public forum, many people can see this. Personally I do not offer subjects like this anymore on public forums.

Regards Tony

As I said, I hoped for better.

I am not one of those pusilanimous sorts that can't accept "wisdom." In fact, I'm the sort who can discern the difference between ancient, religious-sounding language full of verbs ending in "eth" offering up platitudes with no depth.

 

[Sheldon]

There is no dodge, just cautious as what to offer.

Regards Tony

No, you denied an obvious fact about the nature of the homophobic claims many of your fellow Baha'is have made in this thread, would you like a few quotes?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How do you know he is "disgruntled? Why judge him without hearing his side of what happened to him? Is that the Baha'i way of doing things? It's probably not supposed to be, but it becomes what happens.

People get labeled troublemakers and disgruntled when all the had to do is follow the Baha'i laws and change their gayness for straightness.

If one is offering opinions contrary to current guidance given by the Universal House of Justice, in the public arena, there is no other word to use.

All believers can get an answer from the Universal House of Justice, without the fanfare.

All the best CG. Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Sexual fluidity is a real thing and much more common in those who identify as lesbian, bisexual and gay males than heterosexuals.

One study by Steven E. Mock and Richard P. Eibach from 2011 shows 2% of 2,560 adult participants included in National Survey of Midlife Development in the United States reported change of sexual orientation identities after a 10-year period: 0.78% of male and 1.36% of female persons that identified themselves to be heterosexuals at the beginning of the 10-year period, as well as 63.6% of lesbians, 64.7% of bisexual females, 9.52% of gay males, and 47% of bisexual males. According to the study, "this pattern was consistent with the hypothesis that heterosexuality is a more stable sexual orientation identity, perhaps because of its normative status.

Sexual fluidity - Wikipedia

From your link...

Sexual fluidity is one or more changes in sexuality or sexual identity (sometimes known as sexual orientation identity). Sexual orientation is stable and unchanging for the vast majority of people, but some research indicates that some people may experience change in their sexual orientation, and this is slightly more likely for women than for men.[1] There is no scientific evidence that sexual orientation can be changed through psychotherapy.[2][3] Sexual identity can change throughout an individual's life, and may or may not align with biological sex, sexual behavior or actual sexual orientation..
​

I didn't read the whole thing. But the main thing, is there scientific research that supports the Baha'i belief that homosexuality is wrong, unnatural and whatever else Baha'is believe about it?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It is becoming apparent that large part of RF is not into Faith.

A place a person of Faith, should most likely avoid and leave them unto themselves.

Such is my current thoughts.

Regards Tony

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It is100% applicable. With no God, there is no Law.

No more needs to be offered.

Regards Tony

Surely you know that is ridiculous. Laws are made by humans. We make great ones, we make abysmal ones, but they are ours.

In your formulation ("with no God, there is no Law"), you also must accept God as the only police, judge and jury making sure those laws are obeyed.

 

[Vinayaka]

How do you know he is "disgruntled? Why judge him without hearing his side of what happened to him? Is that the Baha'i way of doing things? It's probably not supposed to be, but it becomes what happens.

People get labeled troublemakers and disgruntled when all the had to do is follow the Baha'i laws and change their gayness for straightness.

The poor fellow even begged to get back in, and they let him, with conditions. These stories are painful to watch. But just as the UHJ ignored his plea, so too will ordinary Baha'is ignore him, and any other 'disgruntled' Bahai.