Homosexuality and religious.

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
It's not a switch, bigotry and prejudice are not aimed only at one group.

So instead of yet more ad hominem, try addressing content for once.

 

[Trailblazer]

It was you who made that false accusation of me. Do you really think people can't click on the links and find out what was said, in just a few seconds?

So do you need me to quote your posts again, falsely accusing me of always resorting to calling people stupid when they disagreed with me? Call it and I will quote you yet again.

Go ahead and find the post and we can discuss it.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have to learn greater restraint, that's is my flaw.

No, you are not the one with that flaw.

 

[We Never Know]

Until you stop trolling and start debating your posts are irrelevant.



So instead of yet more ad hominem, try addressing content for once.

Just what I figured your reply would be.
Nothing but useless barking. Run along little doggie.

 

[dybmh]

I have to learn greater restraint, that's is my flaw.

I appreciate what you offer, Tony

 

[Sheldon]

Go ahead and find the post and we can discuss it.

Your wish then...and a link for everyone as well.

Everyone who does not agree with you is deemed stupid

Now quote a post of mine calling someone stupid for disagreeing with me, or even calling another poster stupid come to that. While you're at it, why accuse me of making the claim you had called someone stupid when I did not?

Bahai morality is poorly defended by such dishonesty, and in the wake of the homophobia in this thread, well what can one say.

 

[Sheldon]

Just what I figured your reply would be.
Nothing but useless barking. Run along little doggie.

And yet more ad hominem, and trolling.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your wish then...and a link for everyone as well.

Now quote a post of mine calling someone stupid for disagreeing with me, or even calling another poster stupid come to that.

Context is important. I said stupid or prejudiced, etc.
You have been calling the Baha'is on this thread prejudiced left and right.

Trailblazer said: Do you ever have anything nice to say, something positive, other than to your fellow atheists?
Everyone who does not agree with you is deemed stupid or prejudiced, etc.

 

[We Never Know]

Go ahead and find the post and we can discuss it.

Some posters are just gaslighters seeking a reaction and/or attention.
I myself don't use the ignore function but learn to just skip their posts instead of feeding them. Looks like its time to do that with another one.

 

[Sheldon]

Some posters are just gaslighters seeking a reaction and/or attention.
I myself don't use the ignore function but learn to just skip their posts instead of feeding them. Looks like its time to do that with another one.

We Never Know said: ↑
Nothing but useless barking. Run along little doggie.

 

[Sheldon]

Context is important. I said stupid or prejudiced, etc.
You have been calling the Baha'is on this thread prejudiced left and right.

You made more than one accusation yes, all false. Now can you are can you not quote me calling anyone stupid for not agreeing with me? More importantly for all your moral platitudes, do you have the decency to acknowledge the claim is untrue? Or is falsely lashing out an atheist for daring to challenge your religion's prejudiced homophobic doctrine more important?

Trailblazer said: ↑
Everyone who does not agree with you is deemed stupid

Note I am only asking for one example, and you said everyone, and there's the link. If you want to add the other false allegations, and double down yet again, then I won't bow to such bullying tactics, and you can provide at east one example of those as well, but your dishonest semantics won't help, as everyone can read plainly what you said.

 

[Sheldon]

Go ahead and find the post and we can discuss it.

So you've had the post, how long are you going to pretend you didn't falsely accuse me?

Trailblazer said: ↑
Everyone who does not agree with you is deemed stupid

Show some decency please, live up to your moral platitudes, and admit this claim was untrue and unworthy of debate.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It's like people wanting to change their eye color because a religion prejudices against their natural eye color.

Any therapy would be better asking why a gay person would want to be part of a religion that is prejudiced against them.

Baha’is deeply love Baha’u’llah and trust Him fully so when He states something we know it’s in our best interests. As to those who have not tasted of the joy of knowing Him, of course they are going to naturally be opposed to many things He teaches. In this respect each should go his own way.

 

[We Never Know]

Baha’is deeply love Baha’u’llah and trust Him fully so when He states something we know it’s in our best interests. As to those who have not tasted of the joy of knowing Him, of course they are going to naturally be opposed to many things He teaches. In this respect each should go his own way.

Well said. However you know others won't go their own way, they must constantly grill you because of your beliefs

 

[loverofhumanity]

These weapons are just humans using how nature works to create them. If God wants peace why hid god create a universe with these characteristics that such deadly weapons be created? Or better yet, create humans with such an overactive emotion center, and brains that bypass reasoning, that they end up believing is irrational and untrue concepts, like gods, angels, deamons, miracles, etc.?

Why does Bahai have a prejudice against gays? The same reason humans can't coexist peacefully.


Well, he failed. This is why scientists all over the world got together after WW2 and worked towards ethics in science. Look at the story of Leo Zsilard who tried to get the atomic bomb demonstrated to the Japanese in a test instead of dropping bombs on cities. That is the ethical thing to do. But the scientists, including Einstein, were ignored. What has Bahai done? As good as much of its intention seems to be they still are sabotaged by its own prejudice.

What would happen to gays if Bahai were to get political power?

God gave humans freedom of choice. We are completely free to establish peace or destroy ourselves. God sends Messengers offering guidance but we don’t appreciate Them usually killing Them. So what has God done? He sent Baha’u’llah with teachings for world unity and we so far have chosen to have two world wars. So be it. That is our choice. We are never forced to follow God.

 

[F1fan]

Baha’is deeply love Baha’u’llah and trust Him fully so when He states something we know it’s in our best interests.

These statements sound so bizzarre to me. This is a guy you have never met, as he's long dead. He could have been a total jerk for all you know. At best you love whatever personality the religion presents of him. But even at that this smacks of idol worship. I am very wary of humans who are absorbed emotionally in a guru.

As to those who have not tasted of the joy of knowing Him, of course they are going to naturally be opposed to many things He teaches.

There's not even video of the guy, so this is another odd statement of devotion. None of you Bahai know him. You have texts to read, that is all. You are swallowing it all hook, line and sinker.

In this respect each should go his own way.

We have. We can see many good teachings, but the fact it has a fatal moral flaw is a deal breaker. Those who want to ignore the serious moral failure in the teachings are the side with tainted morals, and that is because you value this dogma over the dignity of gay people and their freedoms.

 

[Trailblazer]

Some posters are just gaslighters seeking a reaction and/or attention.
I myself don't use the ignore function but learn to just skip their posts instead of feeding them. Looks like its time to do that with another one.

I have learned to do the same.
I know who is seeking a serious respectful discussion and who is not, and I am no longer interested in the bantering back and forth.

Let them act out, it doesn't bother me. It is simply more entertainment for me.
They only make themselves look silly when they act out.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

"Neither are good reasons for thinking other people shouldn't be gay. If you think someone else should stop being gay, I'd call that prejudiced against gays"

Really! Show anywhere where I said people shouldn't be gay or should stop being gay.
Just one post. Take your time.

You're getting awfully defensive over an if statement.

What is wrong with this post which you called bs?
"If you do not approve of the totality of someone's life solely on the basis of the adult with whom they have consensual sex, then you are defitely a bigot."

 

[loverofhumanity]

Agreed, but I'd say it comes in at the level of translating moral intuitions into rules to effect that vision. That is, one might say that he holds a utilitarian viewpoint for societies and try to find the rules that make it such that the most people have the most social and economic opportunity to pursue happiness as they define it. For me, that's a moral intuition that I can't argue for beyond saying that it feels right. It doesn't seem to come from any knowledge, but knowledge can then be used to make it happen. It was once believed that prohibition of alcohol would promote that vision, but it was later discovered that that prohibition had an unintended consequence that actually opposed the happiness doctrine. That was new knowledge, and was applied to the same moral intuition to generate a different rule based in that new knowledge.

That's what makes it rational ethics, and why it outperforms religious alternatives like the one we are witnessing in this thread. The Baha'i are stuck with their scripture. The Baha'i themselves seem to be applying their own reasoning skills to the Baha'i proclamation that gays are defective and need help, and don't promote that doctrine, even though they cannot go all the way and disavow it. That's for humanists and other groups to do. The pagans (I include the Wiccans and assorted LHP types - apologies if that is offensive to anybody) and dharmics seem to do pretty well avoiding the homophobia that pervades Abrahamic theology.



To me, both science and ethics are the realm of man. There is no God's realm, just the realm of those who believe in and speak for gods. If gods exist, they do not communicate with man, or else they are no smarter or morally fit than man. Some of these moral systems attributable to gods are defective, and none outperform humanist ethics for decency and compassion. Some may approach or equal it, but none surpass it, and certainly none that teach that homosexuality is a defect that one should try to cure.



You responded to, "It isn't just that homophobia is vile and immoral, it is a massive own goal for the lofty and unevidenced claims that are destroyed by including such hate speech in this "perfectly moral message". And that's the problem with faith. You have chosen a belief system by faith that takes you from that understandable position and asks you to defend something different that is not understandable. It is an irrational and destructive teaching said to be from a perfect god that is accepted uncritically.



Many religions lack a reliable moral compass.



Most participants aren't Bahai'i or members of any homophobic faiths, and are subject to no such laws, just as the Baha'i here feel exempt from the judgment of the humanists and their principles. Where's the common ground between calling homosexuality immoral because it offends a god and believing that that is a hateful and destructive teaching? Why do you expect the humanists to compromise their principles? How far have the Baha'i moved in this thread to find common ground? So, what are you looking for from people who find the doctrine irrational and destructive?



I would like to see people stop thinking by faith, learning to reason, and develop their own consciences. It does tremendous harm to those people and others around them, and not just in the area of homophobia. It is now damaging American women in the form of abortion restrictions based in faith that that is what Jesus wants, and maybe criminalizing same sex marriage and contraceptive use next. And faith underlies climate science rejection, pandemic science rejection, and election hoax claims - all very damaging to everybody affected. It's the barrier to progress using reason. Reasonable people everywhere oppose that kind of thinking, and those kinds of people oppose the reason when it conflicts with faith.



It will resolve nothing further, but I'd say that a lot has been resolved so far. The Baha'i have been remarkably homogeneous, as have their critics. I've mentioned before that one of the chief benefits of participating in RF has been the opportunity to see a spectrum of humanists and various different kinds of theists to see the effects that these ideologies have on their adherents. Doesn't this thread accomplish that nicely? We can see very clearly how the Baha'i faith has affected its adherents by contrasting them with others outside Abrahamic religion.



And yet it was knowledge that allowed me to see the flaw in believing by faith. For me, the gift is critical thinking. If mastered, it immunizes one against belief by faith and all indoctrination religious or political.

The human mind is prone to err. So we rely on it to establish right and wrong, good and bad or moral and immoral? Then who’s version is the correct one? The problem here is there is wide disagreement regarding the above.

So even with critical thinking the human mind is error prone and cannot be fully relied upon. Placing one’s entire confidence and full faith in a mechanism which has been proven to make major errors is very questionable if not foolish.

So we Baha’is choose to place our full trust and confidence in the perfection of God instead rather than the error prone human mind.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you've had the post, how long are you going to pretend you didn't falsely accuse me?
Show some decency please, live up to your moral platitudes, and admit this claim was untrue and unworthy of debate.

Everyone who does not agree with you is deemed stupid or prejudice, etc. was the statement I made.
No, it is not true and I apologize for saying it.
Can we move on now?