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The trial as per the gospels vs. Jewish law

Colt

Well-Known Member
Asking Ai:

Has the Sanhedrin ever been wrong?




The Sanhedrin, an ancient Jewish judicial body, was composed of religious scholars and leaders responsible for interpreting and applying Jewish law. Like any human institution, it was not infallible, and it is documented in historical sources that there were instances where the Sanhedrin made mistakes or controversial decisions.
One prominent example is its handling of the trial of Jesus of Nazareth. According to the New Testament accounts, the Sanhedrin played a role in the trial and crucifixion of Jesus, with some scholars arguing that the proceedings were unfair and unjust.
It's important to note that the Sanhedrin's decisions and actions were influenced not only by religious principles but also by political, social, and cultural factors of their time. As with any legal or religious authority throughout history, they faced the challenges of human fallibility and the complexities of interpreting and applying the law to various situations.
It is essential to remember that historical contexts can be complex and nuanced, and interpretations of events involving the Sanhedrin may vary among different religious and historical perspectives. However, based on available historical evidence, it is clear that the Sanhedrin, like any human institution, was not immune to errors or controversies in its judgments.



What are the controversial decisions of the Sanhedrin?




The Sanhedrin, being an ancient Jewish judicial and religious body, made several controversial decisions throughout its history. Some of these decisions have been recorded in historical and religious texts and continue to be subjects of debate and discussion among scholars and religious communities. Here are a few examples:
  1. The Trial of Jesus: One of the most well-known controversial decisions of the Sanhedrin was its involvement in the trial of Jesus of Nazareth. The New Testament accounts portray the trial as hasty, biased, and unjust, leading to the crucifixion of Jesus. Many scholars and theologians have debated the fairness and legitimacy of the trial, with some asserting that it was influenced by political and religious motivations rather than a fair application of Jewish law.
  2. The Stoning of Stephen: In the Acts of the Apostles, there is an account of the stoning of Stephen, a Christian martyr and one of the early followers of Jesus. The Sanhedrin is depicted as condemning him to death for his beliefs, leading to his execution by stoning. This event raised questions about religious intolerance and the use of violence to suppress dissenting beliefs.
  3. Treatment of Early Christians: In the early years of Christianity, the Sanhedrin played a role in persecuting and opposing the new religious movement. This included imprisoning and punishing early Christian leaders, leading to conflicts between the Jewish authorities and the burgeoning Christian community.
  4. Hillel and Shammai Disputes: The Sanhedrin's decisions were not limited to trials of high-profile figures but also involved the interpretation of Jewish law in various contexts. One well-known example is the disagreements between the schools of Hillel and Shammai, two prominent Jewish scholars of the time, on various legal and religious matters. The Sanhedrin had to adjudicate these disputes, leading to differing rulings that sometimes caused controversy among the Jewish community.
  5. The Handling of the Dead Sea Scrolls: The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, ancient Jewish texts found in the mid-20th century, shed light on the diversity of Jewish religious beliefs and practices during the Second Temple period. However, the initial handling of these scrolls by the Israel Antiquities Authority and scholars led to debates about access, publication, and the rightful ownership of the scrolls.
These examples illustrate that the Sanhedrin, like any human institution, faced challenges in making decisions that satisfied everyone and were seen as fair and just. Historical and religious texts provide glimpses into some of these controversies, but it's essential to consider the historical context and varying interpretations when examining these ancient events.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Has the Sanhedrin ever been wrong about anything? Any controversial decisions?
there is an entire talmudic tractate about what to do when the ruling authority makes a mistake in its decisions. But do you think the Sanhedrin made a mistake in the case of the Dead Sea Scrolls?
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
there is an entire talmudic tractate about what to do when the ruling authority makes a mistake in its decisions. But do you think the Sanhedrin made a mistake in the case of the Dead Sea Scrolls?
Unless the Dead Sea Scrolls was a first century metal band then its a moot question with the Sanhedrin being disbanded in the 4th century. I just thought I would ask Ai.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Brian, answer me honestly. If thirty random congressmen meet in the dead of the night in someone's home and vote on bills on their own, are you saying that Congress has met?

Not in the usual way Congress meets, but in an emergency that might be necessary and maybe they had a quorum (if that was needed). They certainly had the authority of the High Priest and his prophecy about one person needing to die for the sake of the nation and they had what appeared to be the admission of Jesus that He was the Christ, the Son of God, and after that the High Priest said they had heard it with their own ears, they did not need more witnesses, Jesus had blasphemed and was guilty.
(It was this claim of being the Son of God which had riled them up and made them think Jesus was claiming equality with God and even to be God.)
So Jesus had blasphemed in their eyes and they were the Sanhedrin who knew the Law and had the power and did not need any more witnesses and the situation was urgent in their opinion. It had all happened by the time the other members of the Sanhedrin knew about it, and who was going to protest or reverse the decision at that stage? Maybe some tried, but I don't think anyone was going to be sacked or impeached.
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Not in the usual way Congress meets, but in an emergency that might be necessary and maybe they had a quorum (if that was needed). They certainly had the authority of the High Priest and his prophecy about one person needing to die for the sake of the nation and they had what appeared to be the admission of Jesus that He was the Christ, the Son of God, and after that the High Priest said they had heard it with their own ears, they did not need more witnesses, Jesus had blasphemed and was guilty.
(It was this claim of being the Son of God which had riled them up and made them think Jesus was claiming equality with God and even to be God.)
So Jesus had blasphemed in their eyes and they were the Sanhedrin who knew the Law and had the power and did not need any more witnesses and the situation was urgent in their opinion. It had all happened by the time the other members of the Sanhedrin knew about it, and who was going to protest or reverse the decision at that stage? Maybe some tried, but I don't think anyone was going to be sacked or impeached.
I'm sorry but the high priest has no authority to break the rules regarding the meeting of the Sanhedrin. If he does, then it is not a valid meeting of the Sanhedrin. It's just him and his lackeys doing their thing.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I'm sorry but the high priest has no authority to break the rules regarding the meeting of the Sanhedrin. If he does, then it is not a valid meeting of the Sanhedrin. It's just him and his lackeys doing their thing.

So he and his lackeys did their thing and they, because of their positions, had the authority of the Sanhedrin in front of Pilate and the people.
An important thing is of course, whether Jesus was guilty of blasphemy by claiming to be the Son of God.
The gospel stories have incidents when Jesus said the wrong thing in relation to who He was (eg I am in the Father and the Father is in me. I and the Father are one.) and Jesus was luck to get away without being stoned on the spot.
I imagine there was a rebelious mood towards the Romans and then not letting the Jews do what they wanted under their law, such as the death penalty. So in the gospel accounts, breaking the Law was not that uncommon in real life. Maybe you are looking with rose coloured glasses.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
So he and his lackeys did their thing and they, because of their positions, had the authority of the Sanhedrin]
No. In order to have the authority of the Sanhedrin, he had to have had obeyed the rules governing that body. Whatever he and his friends decided that night, it did not carry the authority of the Sanhedrin.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
No. In order to have the authority of the Sanhedrin, he had to have had obeyed the rules governing that body. Whatever he and his friends decided that night, it did not carry the authority of the Sanhedrin.

Yet it happened as if it carried the authority of the Sanhedrin. It was an abuse of authority.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I think I've said plenty enough. None of your replies refutes what I have said. I'm moving on.

And what you have been saying does not show that it could not have happened, just that it probably would not have happened that way if everyone was doing things by the rules.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yet it happened as if it carried the authority of the Sanhedrin. It was an abuse of authority.
Again, it's important to remember that the Sanhedrin could not meet in full because it was the Sabbath, therefore only one of them could have made such a decision.

We also know that the Sanhedrin seems to have been at least somewhat divided as to what to do with Jesus because of the fear of backlash from the Romans. Since there were differing divisions within Judaism, to suppress one could be a threat to all. IOW, if I suppress you now, will you suppress me if you later have the "votes"?

Thus, to me the issue at stake was likely a fear of what the Romans may do since Jesus had become a rabble-rouser with his overturning the tables near the Temple and his references to his "kingdom".
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Again, it's important to remember that the Sanhedrin could not meet in full because it was the Sabbath, therefore only one of them could have made such a decision.

We also know that the Sanhedrin seems to have been at least somewhat divided as to what to do with Jesus because of the fear of backlash from the Romans. Since there were differing divisions within Judaism, to suppress one could be a threat to all. IOW, if I suppress you now, will you suppress me if you later have the "votes"?

Thus, to me the issue at stake was likely a fear of what the Romans may do since Jesus had become a rabble-rouser with his overturning the tables near the Temple and his references to his "kingdom".
According to the tradition the so called trial took place on Thursday night, the night between Thursday and Friday.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member

The trial as per the gospels vs. Jewish law​

One should have compared trial as per the Law of Moses and as per the truthful Israelite Messiah, please.

Regards
The Jews did not accept Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, if they (the Jews of the day) did not/could not kill him, they must have accepted him as truthful person/prophet, yet they did not, as I understand, please, right?
Did they kill him, please?
Right?

Regards
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
The Jews did not accept Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, if they (the Jews of the day) did not/could not kill him, they must have accepted him as truthful person/prophet, yet they did not, as I understand, please, right?
Did they kill him, please?
Right?

Regards
1. You don't kill everyone you don't agree with I hope - are the only choices "either you kill him or you accept him"?
2. What Jesus supposedly did would not incur the death penalty in a Jewish court
3. The Jewish courts had stopped ruling on capital cases already.
4. The process for carrying out a death penalty is complex and designed not to kill even the guilty.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The Jews did not accept Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, if they (the Jews of the day) did not/could not kill him, they must have accepted him as truthful person/prophet, yet they did not, as I understand, please, right?
Did they kill him, please?
Right?

Regards
There were some Jews who wanted him dead, but they did not kill him. Pontius Pilate, on behalf of the Roman empire, is who is responsible for his death.

It is never a good ideas to say "The Jews' anything, as we are not monolithic.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
paarsurrey said:
The Jews did not accept Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, if they (the Jews of the day) did not/could not kill him, they must have accepted him as truthful person/prophet, yet they did not, as I understand, please, right?
Did they kill him, please?
Right?

Regards
There were some Jews who wanted him dead, but they did not kill him. Pontius Pilate, on behalf of the Roman empire, is who is responsible for his death.

It is never a good ideas to say "The Jews' anything, as we are not monolithic.
It is for this that I qualified it with the words " the Jews of the day " , right?

Regards
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
paarsurrey said:
The Jews did not accept Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, if they (the Jews of the day) did not/could not kill him, they must have accepted him as truthful person/prophet, yet they did not, as I understand, please, right?
Did they kill him, please?
Right?

Poster @#357
There were some Jews who wanted him dead, but they did not kill him. Pontius Pilate, on behalf of the Roman empire, is who is responsible for his death.

It is for this that I qualified it with the words " the Jews of the day " , right?
If the Jewish people of the day:
  1. neither they did nor could kill (right?)
  2. Yeshua s/o Mary, though it was their religious duty to do it as per Jewish Torah (right?)
  3. but they failed in their attempt, (right?)
  4. and the pretext of the Roman Empire making it responsible for it is a lame excuse (right?)
  5. Yet they (the Jewish people of the day) did not accept Yeshua s/o Mary the truthful Israelite Messiah (right)
  6. it is OK if it was sinful for them ( the Jewish people) (right?)
  7. Yet, the door of accepting the truthful Israelite Messiah messenger/prophet of G-d is not closed (right)
  8. and entering again in the Covenant Moses had with G-d (right?)
  9. while remaining an Israelite, they can accept Yeshua s/o Mary the truthful Israelite Messiah messenger/prophet of G-d (right).
I don't see any harm in it, please, right?
They can pray to G-d for the grave mistake their forefather did, and can be entitled again to the spiritual fruits promised in the Covenant, right?
No change of religion is required, one must say, right?
Friend @RabbiO , the resident Rabbi here!

Regards
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
paarsurrey said:
The Jews did not accept Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, if they (the Jews of the day) did not/could not kill him, they must have accepted him as truthful person/prophet, yet they did not, as I understand, please, right?
Did they kill him, please?
Right?

Regards



If the Jewish people of the day:
  1. neither they did nor could kill (right?)
  2. Yeshua s/o Mary, though it was their religious duty to do it as per Jewish Torah (right?)
  3. but they failed in their attempt, (right?)
  4. and the pretext of the Roman Empire making it responsible for it is a lame excuse (right?)
  5. Yet they (the Jewish people of the day) did not accept Yeshua s/o Mary the truthful Israelite Messiah (right)
  6. it is OK if it was sinful for them ( the Jewish people) (right?)
  7. Yet, the door of accepting the truthful Israelite Messiah messenger/prophet of G-d is not closed (right)
  8. and entering again in the Covenant Moses had with G-d (right?)
  9. while remaining an Israelite, they can accept Yeshua s/o Mary the truthful Israelite Messiah messenger/prophet of G-d (right).
I don't see any harm in it, please, right?
They can pray to G-d for the grave mistake their forefather did, and can be entitled again to the spiritual fruits promised in the Covenant, right?
No change of religion is required, one must say, right?
Friend @RabbiO , the resident Rabbi here!

Regards
I'm not interested in arguing with you. Your own scriptures stipulate that it was Pontius Piilate who was responsible for his execution.
 
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