Why Jesus must be the Messiah

[Eli G]

I am a Jehovah's witness . We don't worship Jesus; we worship Jehovah.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’

Rev. 3:12 “‘The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.

If you don't know what the person you're trying to talk to believes, then don't approach them with preconceived ideas.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I am a Jehovah's witness . We don't worship Jesus; we worship Jehovah.

I'm very happy to hear that you don't worship Jesus. However, the JWs are the ONLY denomination in Chrsitiabnity which does not (most Christians would say JWs are not Christian for this).

BTW, "jehovah" is a really terrible guess at pronouncing the yad hey vav hey. there is no J sound in Hebrew.

 

[Eli G]

We don´t need Jew's criteria on how to call our God.

You don't know Jehovah, so you don't have the slighest idea about if He accepts us calling Him Jehovah or not. BTW, Jehovah is just one of the forms of His name we used to identify Him around the world.

You don't use any personal name, which is much worse. And do you say you represent Him, a god with no name, like any other?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

We don´t need Jew's criteria on how to call our God.

You don't know Jehovah, so you don't have the slighest idea about if He accepts us calling Him Jehovah or not. BTW, Jehovah is just one of the forms of His name we used to identify Him around the world.

You don't use any personal name, which is much worse. And do you say you represent Him, a god with no name, like any other?

Eli, as a Jehovah's witness, you incorporate the Jewish sacred texts into your bible. I'm not making an appeal to my own authority -- this has nothing to do with what I think. This has to do with certain facts, among them that there is no J sound in Hebrew, so teh yad hey vav hey cannot possibly be pronounced Jehovah.

I very much do know the God of Abraham. I have a great relationship with him. I just don't need Jesus to do it.

It is much, much better to not try to pronounce the divine name, then to try and say it wrongly. It is a holy name. There is a commandment not to use it in vain. No other name on earth has such a commandment. There is nothing comparable.

 

[Eli G]

Indigo, the Bible is a book that belongs to God, not to modern Jews.Jehovah is not only the God of the Jews, but of the entire Universe, and that includes all the nations of the earth. He is not a Jewish property.

Jews didn't write the Bible; some of them did, some prophets and other loyal Jews, a very small number of men, less than 40, and many of them were persecuted and harassed by most of the other Jews.

If thousands of Jews who became Christians in the first century seem unrepresentative to you, how come you pretend that a few loyal Jews who wrote the holy writings are representative of the rebellious people who mistreated them?

Jehovah mentioned His personal name in the Bible more than 6 thousand times. Do you want us to ignore that, as you do?

Mal. 3:16 At that time those who fear Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance was written before him for those fearing Jehovah and for those meditating on his name.
17 “And they will be mine,” says Jehovah of armies, “in the day when I produce a special property. I will show them compassion, just as a man shows compassion to his son who serves him. 18 And you will again see the distinction between a righteous person and a wicked person, between one serving God and one not serving him.”

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Indigo, the Bible is a book that belongs to God, not to modern Jews.Jehovah is not the God of the Jews alone, but of the entire Universe, and that includes all the nations of the earth. He is not a Jewish property.

Jews didn't write the Bible; some of them did, the prophets and other loyal Jews, a very small number of men, less than 40, and many of them were persecuted and harassed by most of the others.

If thousands of Jews who became Christians in the first century seem unrepresentative to you, how come you pretend that a few loyal Jews who wrote the holy writings are representative of the rebellious people who mistreated them?

Jehovah mentioned His personal name in the Bible more than 6 thousand times. Do you want us to ignore that, as you do?

Eli: the Tanakh, what you call the Old testament, is a collection of books that are all written by Jews, about Jews, for Jews. Christianity wants to misappropriate those texts. But you can't change those facts.

As I said, I think it much MUCH better to simply not try to voice the divine name of God, than to try and screw it up.

 

[Eli G]

Indigo, the Bible was wwritten by some inspired Jews, a few of them. Most Jews in biblical times never read or study or take any Biblical writing seriously, so, be real.

There were just a few ocassions they did so and that was in events when somebody found the book or personally wished to read part of the book to others or a prophet who was reading another prophet, or so. Do not pretend that Jews take the Bible seriously in Biblical times, don't make me laugh.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Indigo, the Bible was wwritten by some inspired Jews, a few of them. Most Jews in biblical times never read or study or take any Biblical writing seriously, so, be real.

There were just a few ocassions they did so and that was in events when somebody found the book or personally wished to read part of the book to others or a prophet who was reading another prophet, or so. Do not pretend that Jews take the Bible seriously in Biblical times, don't make me laugh.

Eli: The bible is written by men. In the case of the Tanakh, what you erroneously call the Old Testament, it was written by Jews. about Jews, for Jews. Your religion has basically misappopriated Jewish sacred tests. But you cannot change the facts.

 

[Eli G]

Indigo, you believe the Bible is yours... It is not and never was. You can imagine what you want.
Have a good one.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Indigo, you believe the Bible is yours... It is not and never was. You can imagine what you want.
Have a good one.

Mine personally? No. But yes, the Tanakh belongs to the Jewish people. If you gain inspiration from it, that's great. But no, it's not yours.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Wishful thinking ... but it's Ok, if thinking that makes you happy. The only problem is that you are the only ones who believe so.

Modern Jews are not Biblical Jews. You have not prophet, you have not priests, you have not davidic king, you don't own the territory, you don't obey Moses' law, you have not temple, you are not with God, ... You can imagine what you want anyway.

Well, I let you post the last comment. I know you love that.

You are mistaken. Modern Jews are the identical people that you find in the bible.

Nice talking to you. Be well.

 

[paarsurrey]

I am a Jehovah's witness . We don't worship Jesus; we worship Jehovah.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’

Rev. 3:12 “‘The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.

If you don't know what the person you're trying to talk to believes, then don't approach them with preconceived ideas.

" Jehovah's witness . We don't worship Jesus; we worship Jehovah. "

Don't the "Jehovah's witness(s)" pray "in Jesus' name", right??

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: #68
Quote from the friend @blü 2 (#61), "And I can't see any reason at all why any mainstream Jew in Galilee or Judea should or would recognize Jesus as the Messiah, since he was neither a civil leader, a military leader, or a religious leader of the Jews." Unquote

My view is a little different.

The Jews have/had two choices, either :

1. they would have accepted him as a truthful prophet as they had accepted Moses (right?), and or
2. as it was incumbent on them to kill a false prophet (right), to kill Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, if he was a false prophet in terms of Deuteronomy.

They failed to kill him as per (2)above, right?
So, the only alternative for them, as I understand, is to revert to becoming a true Israelite instead of remaining a Jew as per (1) above, right?

#69
except that at the time of Jesus, the Jewish legal system was not enacting a death penalty so they couldn't kill him. That doesn't mean that they only had the alternative of accepting him.

paarsurrey: #134
What other alternative they (the Jews of Jesus' time) had?

Regard

 

[rosends]

paarsurrey: #134
What other alternative they had?

Regard

rejecting his teachings and living their lives. Why are the only 2 choices "accept or kill"?

 

[metis]

I'm very happy to hear that you don't worship Jesus. However, the JWs are the ONLY denomination in Chrsitiabnity which does not (most Christians would say JWs are not Christian for this).

BTW, "jehovah" is a really terrible guess at pronouncing the yad hey vav hey. there is no J sound in Hebrew.

Technically, within Catholicism, Jesus is considered to be of the "essence" [per Aristotle] of God but not precisely God.

 

[Truthseeker]

I'm very happy to hear that you don't worship Jesus. However, the JWs are the ONLY denomination in Chrsitiabnity which does not (most Christians would say JWs are not Christian for this).

BTW, "jehovah" is a really terrible guess at pronouncing the yad hey vav hey. there is no J sound in Hebrew.

Here's the Quaker (Society of Friends) position or lack of position:

Although there are among Friends many gradations of belief, I can best clarify what I feel to be our distinctive interpretation of Jesus if I relate it to the two extremes of belief which an individual can hold and still be comfortable within the Religious Society of Friends.

At one extreme are those who believe that Jesus was the greatest of spiritual teachers but with nothing of the supernatural either in the facts of his life or in his powers. At the other extreme are those who can accept the creed of most of Christendom that Jesus was God’s "only Son our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, Born of the Virgin Mary: Suffered under Pontius Pilate, Was crucified, dead, and buried: He descended into hell; The third day he rose again from the dead: He ascended into heaven, And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty: From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead." This creed places major emphasis on certain miraculous physical aspects of Jesus’ birth, death, and powers and omits mention of his teachings.

People outside the Society of Friends who adhere to the first belief usually see no value in "accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior." Adherents to the second belief usually see no hope for a man aside from "accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior." What, then, enables Quakerism to encompass both?

I believe that the secret lies in a special emphasis of ours which makes these differences relatively unimportant. We are held together by our belief that the historical Jesus was a unique revelation to men of God’s nature and will and that there is a spiritual element in men which corresponds to this nature and will and which, therefore, responds to the spirit of Jesus by growing. This we have called the eternal Christ or the Christ within to differentiate it from the man Jesus.

Jesus and Quakerism - Friends Journal

This is not my faith, but the faith I came from growing up.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Technically, within Catholicism, Jesus is considered to be of the "essence" [per Aristotle] of God but not precisely God.

"Essense" is used for God.

From the Nicene Creed:
God from God, light from light, true God from true God.

 

[Ebionite]

You aren't making sense. He spoke directly to the issue.

Can you quote the text where he addressed the issue of mazal (Molnar's astrological solution)?

 

[blü 2]

paarsurrey said: #68
Quote from the friend @blü 2 (#61), "And I can't see any reason at all why any mainstream Jew in Galilee or Judea should or would recognize Jesus as the Messiah, since he was neither a civil leader, a military leader, or a religious leader of the Jews." Unquote

My view is a little different.

The Jews have/had two choices, either :

1. they would have accepted him as a truthful prophet as they had accepted Moses (right?), and or

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd say a messiah (by definition anointed by the priesthood) is not the same thing as a prophet (proclaimer).

1. as it was incumbent on them to kill a false prophet (right), to kill Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, if he was a false prophet in terms of Deuteronomy.

That assumes the general public (a) noticed him and (b) thought he was a prophet and (c) thought it was necessary to kill him. Whereas, as I've mentioned, he only arrives in Jerusalem at the very end, and it's far more credible that the Romans would execute trouble-makers against Rome whether they were of large or small influence.

They failed to kill him as per (2)above, right?

If I recall aright, in the stories the Jewish authorities wanted to kill him but regarded killing as a Roman prerogative.

 

[Sargonski]

Among the Jews, the family tree is very important, which can be seen just from the fact that the OT contains many family trees. For Jews family trees are identification, they show who a person is, to whom he belongs. Family trees are also proof for heirs, because in order to inherit something from an ancestor, the descendant must prove that he is the rightful heir and this is proven by a family tree. And that is the point, for we know that the Messiah is the rightful heir of King David and thus ascends the throne of David. Now the fact is that all the genealogical records of the Jews were destroyed by the Romans during the destruction of the temple. Only one family tree survived, the family tree of Jesus in the NT which goes from David to him. With this family tree one can prove that Jesus is a descendant of David and therefore has the right to the kingship of David. He is the only one who can do this, all other Jews living today have no family tree that leads up to David. If a Jew shows up and claims to be the Messiah but is not Jesus, he cannot prove that he is the descendant of David because he has no family tree.

Ask yourself, why did God destroy all the genealogies of the Jews except that of Jesus. He did it so that the world would know that there can be no other Messiah except Jesus.

As was asserted by others ... The genealogies given in the Bible don't make sense .. how do you go back to the line of David through Joseph ... when he is not the Father of Jesus .. but that is just the beginning of the problems

This is not "The Reason" why Jesus is the Messiah .. and it is not through this lineage whereby "Messiah-dom" is conferred .. as this is not an earthly lineage we are discussing .. but a Heavenly Lineage

Hebrews 6 read chapter 7 for more information.

16 People swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged. 19 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20 where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

Like Jesus .. MelchiZedek has no eathly lineage - but he is the first contact we have with the Priestly Lineage .. of the Most High. MelchiZedek is introduced to us by this title "Priest of the Most High" . Abraham gives tithes to this fellow who is both Priest and King of Jerusalem. A Canaanite Priest ... who's God is not YHWH .. but YHWH's Father EL .. as per a proper reading of Deut 32:8

Zedek is the Patron God of Jerusalem at this time .. twin Gods of Justice and Righteousness .. related to the Divine Pantheon .. where El is Chief .. Psalm 82.

Abe and Melchizedek sacrifice of Bread and Wine to the Most HIgh God .. .. fancy that. some 800 years later .. when the hero of our Lineage Story - KIng David takes Jerusalem -- the name of the Canaanite King is Adoni -Zedek "My Lord is Zedek" Same Patron God.

The High Priest at the time is a fellow by the name of Zadok .. and guess what happens to him... given the not so gentile nature of the Israelite conquests .. "Kill Everyone" edict often in place .. this fellow being a Pagan High Priest usually merited a speacial Death. Not so for this Fellow .. no no no. Instead of installing a priest from the line of Moses .. King David installs this guy as High Priest of Jerusalem .. it is this fellow who Annoints Solomon as King.

Psalm 110​

Of David. A psalm.​

1 The Lord says to my lord:[a]
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”
2 The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of your enemies!”
3 Your troops will be willing
on your day of battle.
Arrayed in holy splendor,
your young men will come to you
like dew from the morning’s womb.[b]
4 The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”

David ..is a Priest forever in the Order of MelchiZedek ..... you understand ?

How this is passed down to Jesus .. a story for another day... but this is a heavenly Lineage . a heavenly Priesthood .. not an earthly one

Assignment for the next post is to guess the identity of "The Father" -- God of Jesus .. the one he prays to .. the one who adopted him as a man of 30 .. the one who did not come to his rescue from being a human sacrifice .. .. like he did for Issac .. in one version of the story .. in the other Issac bit it .. but that is another story. The task at hand is to figure out who is the God of Jesus .. Hint .. its not YHWH