Why Jesus must be the Messiah

[Ebionite]

Sometimes elohim is plural, meaning gods or angels or human judges. And sometimes it is singular. When used to refer to teh God of Abraham, it is singular.

BTW the word in Deut 6:4 is Eloheinu, not Elah.

No, the word elohim is never singular because it has the yud-mem suffix. It's typically used as if it were singular, consistent the name of "I AM".

YHWH is typically a member of Elohim:

So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.
And Elohim spake all these words, saying,
I [am] YHWH thy Elah, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exodus 19:25-20:2

Eloheinu is the root word elah with addition letters to indicate the relationship with the context. Same as for elohyk in Exodus 20:2.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No, the word elohim is never singular because it has the yud-mem suffix. It's typically used as if it were singular, consistent the name of "I AM".

YHWH is typically a member of Elohim:

So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.
And Elohim spake all these words, saying,
I [am] YHWH thy Elah, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exodus 19:25-20:2

Eloheinu is the root word elah with addition letters to indicate the relationship with the context. Same as for elohyk in Exodus 20:2.

Eloheinu means "our God." It can be singular or plural depending on the context. In this context, it is singular.

You are simply mistaken that Elohim is always singular. I don't know where you got that idea.

YHWH is NOT a "member" of Elohim. You are very mixed up, my friend.

 

[Ebionite]

Eloheinu means "our God." It can be singular or plural depending on the context. In this context, it is singular.

You're reverting to ambiguity by using "God" in your attempt to make a point.
I doubt that you can give an example of elohinu being a context that would indicate that it is plural.

You are simply mistaken that Elohim is always singular. I don't know where you got that idea.

You're misrepresenting me, I said that Elohim never singular. Hebrew grammar can treat elohim as it it were a singular term, though.

YHWH is NOT a "member" of Elohim. You are very mixed up, my friend.

No, YHWH is clearly a member of Elohim in Exodus 19:25-20-2 because Elohim says "I am YHWH ... " in verse 3
A similar case exists in Exodus 3 where Elohim is YHWH and the angel of the burning bush.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You're misrepresenting me, I said that Elohim never singular. Hebrew grammar can treat elohim as it it were a singular term, though.

Right. This was a typo, as I was writing very fast. Let me say again, correctly this time:
You are absolutely mistaken when you say that Elohim is never singular.

 

[Jedster]

@Ebionite

PMFJI if this has already been shown

The first verse of Genesis

בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ (In the beginning God created .._

Her, אֱלֹהִ֑ים(elohim) is the word for God and בָּרָ֣א(created) is 3rd person singular

 

[metis]

The Baha'i concept is consistent with the teaching from the gospel of John:

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
John 10:33-36

I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Psalms 82:6-7

Even though I don't buy into that, plus it doesn't show up as such in the early writings of the Church as far as I can remember, nevertheless I can't and won't dismiss it out-of-hand. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[metis]

I understand. I have always been interested in Trinitarianism, because it was when Jesus became God that Jews began to be accused of deicide. I've read several books on the subject. I probably know far more about it than any Jew should know. LOLOLOL I know all about homoousios and how difficult it is to translate that word into English. My only point is that it IS CLEAR that the intent is to say that Jesus IS GOD, as the portion of the creed I quoted says point blank.

But "is God" in which way? Logically, using scripture, that cannot be the case. Even though my father is my father [what a profound statement, eh?], my "essence" is more like my mother. But your point is valid, as a great many Catholics today take Jesus as sorta being God.

So, why the confusing statements from and of the Church? IMO, a key is Jesus' statement "The Father and I are one". Now, one can take this different ways, but then that begs the question that, if they're entirely the same, why does Jesus say "the Father and I..."? That indicates at least a degree of separation, right?

So, how does "true God" fit in? Again, the only logical position is that Jesus is of the "essence" of God, and just a reminder of what "essence" implies philosophjically:

es·sence
[ˈes(ə)ns]

NOUN

1. the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character.

BTW, I truly welcome your input on this but also another reason: you may know that I'm a student of the Holocaust who has studied it here, in Poland, and in Israel [twice], plus I taught a three-week unit on that and other incidents of genocide. So, the rampant anti-Semitism in the Church cannot be overstated, no doubt. Fortunately, that has largely been corrected [took damn long enough!!!] or I would not have rejoined the Church.

Take care my friend, and thanks.

 

[paarsurrey]

Why Jesus must be the Messiah

Sargonski said:

• #140

"the one who did not come to his rescue from being a human sacrifice .. .. like he did for Isaac "
Ebionite said:

• #142

No, he was rescued.

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isaiah 53:8
.......
.......

"That they said (in boast), 'We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah' -- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not -- nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself. "
The Qur'an, Surah 4:157-158

• #154

" That they said (in boast), 'We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah' -- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not -- nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself.
The Qur'an, Surah 4:157-158 "
I appreciate our friend @Ebionite for quoting English translation of the above verses from Quran, the original text of Quran in Arabic is:

4:157 وَقَوۡلِهِمۡ إِنَّا قَتَلۡنَا ٱلۡمَسِیحَ عِیسَى ٱبۡنَ مَرۡیَمَ رَسُولَ ٱللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـٰكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمۡۚ وَإِنَّ ٱلَّذِینَ ٱخۡتَلَفُوا۟ فِیهِ لَفِی شَكࣲّ مِّنۡهُۚ مَا لَهُم بِهِۦ مِنۡ عِلۡمٍ إِلَّا ٱتِّبَاعَ ٱلظَّنِّۚ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ یَقِینَۢا ۝١٥٧
4:158 بَل رَّفَعَهُ ٱللَّهُ إِلَیۡهِۚ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ عَزِیزًا حَكِیمࣰا ۝١

an-Nisa` (Women) at IslamAwakened.com

www.islamawakened.com

Isn't it selfish of the sinful Pauline-Christians, just because they cannot stop sinning, sinful Paul took advantage of it, and invented the creed "Jesus died on the Cross" for the sins of the Christian people, right??

Regards

 

[Ebionite]

@Ebionite

PMFJI if this has already been shown

The first verse of Genesis

בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ (In the beginning God created .._

Her, אֱלֹהִ֑ים(elohim) is the word for God and בָּרָ֣א(created) is 3rd person singular

Yes, that's right. The point is that "God" is ambiguous because it can be a translation of elohim, elah, or el.

 

[Ebionite]

Right. This was a typo, as I was writing very fast. Let me say again, correctly this time:
You are absolutely mistaken when you say that Elohim is never singular.

No, I'm not mistaken. Where's your proof text?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes, that's right. The point is that "God" is ambiguous because it can be a translation of elohim, elah, or el.

How does that make God ambiguous?

 

[Ebionite]

How does that make God ambiguous?

Because elohim, elah, and el have different meanings ans they are not consistent in number (elohim is plural but the elah and el are singular).

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Because elohim, elah, and el have different meanings ans they are not consistent in number (elohim is plural but the elah and el are singular).

They are all variations on God, just like Yah is short for the tetragrammaton

 

[Ebionite]

They are all variations on God, just like Yah is short for the tetragrammaton

No, Yah is unambiguous and the tetragrammaton is unambiguous.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No, Yah is unambiguous and the tetragrammaton is unambiguous.

Sounds like you want "ambiguous" to mean whatever you decide it means.

 

[Ebionite]

Sounds like you want "ambiguous" to mean whatever you decide it means.

The fact that you don't have any counter examples tends to prove my point.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The fact that you don't have any counter examples tends to prove my point.

I don't know what to say to you. When someone says something that makes no sense, how is one supposed to reply?

 

[Ebionite]

I don't know what to say to you. When someone says something that makes no sense, how is one supposed to reply?

You could identify an error in my argument or ask for clarification.

 

[Jedster]

Yes, that's right. The point is that "God" is ambiguous because it can be a translation of elohim, elah, or el.

It's a long time since I studied Torah, but I do remember that elohim is also used to mean judges, although I am not sure if this makes the use ambiguous.
So, I cheated and used google which came up with this from Exodus 21:6

�

6his master shall bring him to the judges, and he shall bring him to the door or to the doorpost, and his master shall bore his ear with an awl, and he shall serve him forever.		ווְהִגִּישׁ֤וֹ אֲדֹנָיו֙ אֶל־הָ֣אֱלֹהִ֔ים וְהִגִּישׁוֹ֙ אֶל־הַדֶּ֔לֶת א֖וֹ אֶל־הַמְּזוּזָ֑ה וְרָצַ֨ע אֲדֹנָ֤יו אֶת־אָזְנוֹ֙ בַּמַּרְצֵ֔עַ וַֽעֲבָד֖וֹ לְעֹלָֽם:

 

[Ebionite]

It's a long time since I studied Torah, but I do remember that elohim is also used to mean judges, although I am not sure if this makes the use ambiguous.
So, I cheated and used google which came up with this from Exodus 21:6

�

6his master shall bring him to the judges, and he shall bring him to the door or to the doorpost, and his master shall bore his ear with an awl, and he shall serve him forever.		ווְהִגִּישׁ֤וֹ אֲדֹנָיו֙ אֶל־הָ֣אֱלֹהִ֔ים וְהִגִּישׁוֹ֙ אֶל־הַדֶּ֔לֶת א֖וֹ אֶל־הַמְּזוּזָ֑ה וְרָצַ֨ע אֲדֹנָ֤יו אֶת־אָזְנוֹ֙ בַּמַּרְצֵ֔עַ וַֽעֲבָד֖וֹ לְעֹלָֽם:

Yes, elohim can refer to judges like Moses. Pretty much any word can be ambiguous if there's no context.

The ambiguity of "God" relates to the conflation of YHWH with elohim, to the Semitic deity Gad/God, and to the implication of sacrifice and death.

god (n.)
also God; Old English god "supreme being, deity; the Christian God; image of a god; godlike person," from Proto-Germanic *guthan (source also of Old Saxon, Old Frisian, Dutch god, Old High German got, German Gott, Old Norse guð, Gothic guþ), which is of uncertain origin; perhaps from PIE *ghut- "that which is invoked" (source also of Old Church Slavonic zovo "to call," Sanskrit huta- "invoked," an epithet of Indra), from root *gheu(e)- "to call, invoke." The notion could be "divine entity summoned to a sacrifice."

But some trace it to PIE *ghu-to- "poured," from root *gheu- "to pour, pour a libation" (source of Greek khein "to pour," also in the phrase khute gaia "poured earth," referring to a burial mound; see found (v.2)). "Given the Greek facts, the Germanic form may have referred in the first instance to the spirit immanent in a burial mound" [Watkins].

god | Search Online Etymology Dictionary

The online etymology dictionary (etymonline) is the internet's go-to source for quick and reliable accounts of the origin and history of English words, phrases, and idioms. It is professional enough to satisfy academic standards, but accessible enough to be used by anyone.

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