Questions for God

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

man is not a creature of instinct

I don’t think people who say that have met people.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

What if you are wrong and there is a God who does/is doing things for the long term/ eternal benefit of those He created and cares about?

Long term still needs to be done in a reasonable timeframe. Waiting to help someone millennia after someone dies did absolutely nothing.

 

[setarcos]

Not my problem. My argument instead is that if God or [his] supporters can't provide such a method then [his] supporters' claims that [he]'s omniscient are unsustainable.

It may not be your problem, except for the fact that you've described a problem and demanded a solution.
The terms involved have already been given and defined. Unless you disagree with my explanation of how God and omniscience are defined within Christianity? If you don't then given these terms you've proposed that omniscience is logically unsustainable. Now since you've made a claim that taken together as defined they are logically unsustainable it becomes your problem to prove they aren't.
You certainly can ask if anyone can show that they are logically sustainable or if anyone can prove why they aren't given the terms described and used in the discussion but that is not what you have done. What you have done is make a claim that omniscience is unsustainable. That falls into the realm of proof of possibility or impossibility not proof of actuality. As such your claim requires as much proof of impossibility as a believers claim of possibility and both claims must be subject to being comprehensively non-contradictory given the definitions.
Surely you can see that in the absence of you proving that such things can't be possible simply because you cannot see how such things can be possible has no relevance to if they are possible. Obviously its not logical to presume that because a believer hasn't yet provided a provable method by which some proposed phenomena might work that doesn't mean there isn't one.
There are quite a few cases in science itself where the discoveries were first intuitively presumed true before they were demonstrated to be realistic. Hypothesis and eventually theories are pursued not because they have been proven true as to their methods of realistic existence but because they haven't been proven false, unsustainable, or contradictory to reality as yet.
You've created a contradictive statement but haven't proven how it makes omniscience unsustainable as it applies to the Christian God. As a matter of fact, for your statement to apply to the Christian God you have to redefine the Christian God in order that you can apply your statement to it.
The most you've done is swing us back to the question of Gods existence.

Given that the God of the bible is real ie has objective existence and is not simply a concept or thing imagined

Ahh but your argument here is of logical sustainability given the definitions of the terms in question. It is not an argument for or against the real existence of such terms as defined.

those who make the claim of omniscience carry the can when it comes to establishing that the omniscience thing is anything more than mere assertion.

As I've said above, the only assertions made in your argument are whether or not the given terms as defined are logically sustainable not whether or not those terms are anything more than mere assertion.
So, since you've made the claim that they are logically unsustainable you carry the "can" of proving so. The only can a believer has to carry in this case is, given your proposed proof, whether or not it is flawed in some manner.

No, the reality of the bible God is a given for purposes of this particular question.

Agreed, as I've said above.

Not in this case. Either there's a credible method by which God can establish that there's nothing [he] doesn't know [he] doesn't know, or the claim that [he]'s omniscient is unsustainable.

Your statement was in reference to mine below...
setarcos said:
"On the contrary...understanding that Gods attributes cannot create contradiction in reality is essential in understanding how the Christian Gods attributes are defined."

Understanding our terms is absolutely necessary to understanding your assertion. I will define them again to be clear.
God : One of two parts of reality. Those are itself and its creation(those things in reality whose origins come from the creative action of God).
God is sentient, spiritual(not physically defined) omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. Simple and uncontradictable in its nature, immutable, and ineffably unfathomable by other sentient beings without its direct intervention of impressable knowledge upon those other beings.
Omniscience: Having the knowledge of all that it is possible to have knowledge of in reality. Including knowledge of what is impossible.
Impossible: Those things which create contradiction in reality.
Contradiction: Those things which cannot have effective existence within reality.

By definition omniscience includes knowledge of contradiction but cannot be contradictive.
There is only two possible realities including omniscience. Either there is a being in reality that has omniscience or there is not. IF there is a being which exists in reality with omniscience then the case proves itself sustainably logical by definition.
Omniscience is knowing everything possible to know about reality. God being omniscient indicates that it cannot not know that it is omniscient. If it does then it is not omniscient. IF it IS omniscient then it knows and the phrase "God cannot know what it does not know" is a meaningless contradiction and is not possible in reality. While God can know the contradictory phrase God does not know its meaning because in the case in point it is meaningless. There's nothing for God to not know that has meaning because the phrase describes meaninglessness.

 

[Bird123]

1. How does God know there's nothing [he] doesn't know [he] doesn't know?

2. How does God know [he] didn't spontaneously spring into existence. fully formed with memories and all, with the rest of the universe last Thursday?

3. How does God know [he]'s not just a dream in the brain of a human?

Question 1.How does God know there's nothing [he] doesn't know [he] doesn't know?

Answer: Now would not be a problem, now would it?

Question 2. How does God know [he] didn't spontaneously spring into existence. fully formed with memories and all, with the rest of the universe last Thursday?

Answer:Simple, God was talking to me way before Thursday.

Question 3. How does God know [he]'s not just a dream in the brain of a human?

Answer: If God was just a dream in the brain of a human, there would be no need for God to know.
Hmmm??? How do you know you aren't just a dream in the brain of a human? Somebody pinch me So I know I'm not dreaming blu up.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[blü 2]

The terms involved have already been given and defined. Unless you disagree with my explanation of how God and omniscience are defined within Christianity?

It's irrelevant how omniscience is defined in Christianity because here omniscience is the claim under investigation. And that means the mere assertion of omniscience is insufficient. Yet until the supporters of omniscience can explain how God knows there's nothing [he] doesn't know [he] doesn't know, mere assertion is all there is.

If you don't then given these terms you've proposed that omniscience is logically unsustainable.

But in this thread , yes I do.

What you have done is make a claim that omniscience is unsustainable.

Yes, IF its supporters can't answer the question, How does God know there's nothing [he] doesn't know [he] doesn't know? Otherwise okay until some other problem may arise.

That falls into the realm of proof of possibility or impossibility not proof of actuality.

Just so. The surrounding actualities are a given for purposes of examining this particular question. (Of course there are two other questions in the OP, but the same is true of them.)

As such your claim requires as much proof of impossibility as a believers claim of possibility and both claims must be subject to being comprehensively non-contradictory given the definitions.

No. You're pitching omniscience's mere assertion against a logical problem that arises from the assertion. As I've repeatedly made clear here, to isolate that question and examine it on its own, I've stated that the existence of the bible God is a given for this purpose.

Surely you can see that in the absence of you proving that such things can't be possible simply because you cannot see how such things can be possible has no relevance to if they are possible.

I invite you to answer the question itself, and not keep trying to duck it.

 

[blü 2]

Question 1.How does God know there's nothing [he] doesn't know [he] doesn't know?

Answer: Now would not be a problem, now would it?

Yes, that question IS the (first) problem. And you can solve the problem by explaining HOW God knows there's nothing [he] doesn't know [he] doesn't know.

Question 2. How does God know [he] didn't spontaneously spring into existence. fully formed with memories and all, with the rest of the universe last Thursday?

Answer:Simple, God was talking to me way before Thursday.

No, you and I and everyone else including God didn't exist before last Thursday. That was when the universe sprang into existence exactly as we see it now, including everyone's memories, learning, language, on and on.

Question 3. How does God know [he]'s not just a dream in the brain of a human?

Answer: If God was just a dream in the brain of a human, there would be no need for God to know.

You're saying God exists solely as a dream, an idea, a concept, a notion, in individual brains? I can't argue with that.

 

[InChrist]

Long term still needs to be done in a reasonable timeframe. Waiting to help someone millennia after someone dies did absolutely nothing.

Well, not if one’s eternity, beyond physical death, is the point of it all.

 

[blü 2]

Well, not if one’s eternity, beyond physical death, is the point of it all.

Serious question ─ I've never seen the point of living eternally. When you're a living creature, you're born with an evolved lifeplan, based around living long enough to breed successfully. That includes humans, regardless of modern contraception. Then you get to be a grandparent, then you've done your shift and that's that. Your life has a point to it, a natural spring, summer, autumn, winter and exit.

I accept that death is the end.

So what are you actually going to do in paradise forever ─ or let's not start with forever, let's say for the first hundred million years?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

God didn't cause the flood to happen because everything was so good

God also thinks that various harmless things like wearing two types of fabric is an abomination. Job didn’t do anything wrong and look how he was treated.

 

[ppp]

Well, not if one’s eternity, beyond physical death, is the point of it all.

What is the point of living forever?

 

[Trailblazer]

What is the point of living forever?

Why does there have to be a point?
Is there a point of only living our short life span on earth?

 

[Trailblazer]

Serious question ─ I've never seen the point of living eternally.

Why does there have to be a point for living eternally?
Below, you delineated the point of life on this earth, so maybe there is a point to life in the hereafter.
Just because we do not know what that point is yet, that doesn't mean there is no point.

When you're a living creature, you're born with an evolved lifeplan, based around living long enough to breed successfully. That includes humans, regardless of modern contraception. Then you get to be a grandparent, then you've done your shift and that's that. Your life has a point to it, a natural spring, summer, autumn, winter and exit.

I agree, that is the point of this life on earth, although there is more to life on earth than breeding.
People who have no children also have a purpose to their lives.

I accept that death is the end.

You can accept that, but what will you do when you die and realize that you are not really dead? That might come as quite a shock.

So what are you actually going to do in paradise forever ─ or let's not start with forever, let's say for the first hundred million years?

That is a really good question and a big concern of mine, a concern that most believers do not take into consideration.

Did you see my thread? What are the best and worst things about heaven?

 

[Bird123]

Yes, that question IS the (first) problem. And you can solve the problem by explaining HOW God knows there's nothing [he] doesn't know [he] doesn't know.


No, you and I and everyone else including God didn't exist before last Thursday. That was when the universe sprang into existence exactly as we see it now, including everyone's memories, learning, language, on and on.



You're saying God exists solely as a dream, an idea, a concept, a notion, in individual brains? I can't argue with that.

Do you know what you don't know? Does it matter? You are attempting to use language and your definition of God in order to create a problem. There is no problem except in your mind.

Until you acquire enough knowledge to be at least close to God, you will not have the vision or the view to even speculate what God knows or does not know. Worry not. Through out eternity I am going to be searching to see what God's limits are if there are any. Until then, I am watching to see.

Let's get in the real world! Everything did not start existing Thursday. Have you become a theist, only your belief is Thursday?

So what you are saying is that you are no more than a dream I'm having. Didn't the pinch wake me up? You are still here. In reality, you exist. In reality God exists.

There will come a day when you will know God exists. Now, it's just one of those things you don't know you know, but you really do. Won't you be surprised. It won't be a dream, an idea, a notion, or a concept in your brain. Why not? When this reality hits you, you won't have a brain to blame it on.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[blü 2]

Do you know what you don't know? Does it matter? You are attempting to use language and your definition of God in order to create a problem. There is no problem except in your mind.

You don't see a problem in attributing nonsense qualities to God like omniscience? Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.

Until you acquire enough knowledge to be at least close to God, you will not have the vision or the view to even speculate what God knows or does not know.

How do you know that? Did someone tell you, or have you met a real non-imaginary God? If the latter, please describe [his] physical appearance to me so that if I run into [him] I can say hello. Oh, and what was [he] wearing at the time?

Worry not. Through out eternity I am going to be searching to see what God's limits are if there are any. Until then, I am watching to see.

You'd probably enjoy writing down the plate numbers of passing cars too.

Let's get in the real world! Everything did not start existing Thursday. Have you become a theist, only your belief is Thursday?

Demonstrate to me that I'm wrong.

So what you are saying is that you are no more than a dream I'm having. Didn't the pinch wake me up? You are still here. In reality, you exist. In reality God exists.

No, I'm not saying that, though God seems to qualify.

There will come a day when you will know God exists.

Which God will it be? How can I distinguish this being from the other gods? Or from a mere superscientist?

Do tell.

 

[InChrist]

Serious question ─ I've never seen the point of living eternally. When you're a living creature, you're born with an evolved lifeplan, based around living long enough to breed successfully. That includes humans, regardless of modern contraception. Then you get to be a grandparent, then you've done your shift and that's that. Your life has a point to it, a natural spring, summer, autumn, winter and exit.

I accept that death is the end.

So what are you actually going to do in paradise forever ─ or let's not start with forever, let's say for the first hundred million years?

I don’t know about you, but I feel like this short life span is passing very quickly and I’ve hardly done, seen, experienced, or learned all the things I would have liked to. I don’t think there will be a shortage of interesting, creative, wonderful things to do and individuals to meet and spend time with ( though time will be irrelevant). Not to mention being with and learning from the Creator of heaven and earth; enjoying His endless love and the unimaginable, ongoing beauty of the heavenly realm.

 

[InChrist]

What is the point of living forever?

What’s the point of not living forever?
I think eternal life means endless love, relationships, beauty, creativity, learning, new experiences, joy and so much more. I look forward to such a wonderful state of being.

 

[ppp]

What’s the point of not living forever?
I think eternal life means endless love, relationships, beauty, creativity, learning, new experiences, joy and so much more. I look forward to such a wonderful state of being.

Of course living forever means doing the things that one does when one is alive over and over again. Forever.
But according to you doing those things 100 or 1000 times does NOT have a point. Yet doing those things even more than a quadrillion times . does. Is there anything to your claims of having a point beyond endless repetitions? Anything at all?

I am betting, not.

 

[InChrist]

Of course living forever means doing the things that one does when one is alive over and over again. Forever.
But according to you doing those things 100 or 1000 times does NOT have a point. Yet doing those things even more than a quadrillion times . does. Is there anything to your claims of having a point beyond endless repetitions? Anything at all?

I am betting, not.

While doing some things over and over again can be very meaningful, what makes you think everything will be repetitious? I’m sure there will be an endless amount of new, interesting, creative things to do .

 

[ppp]

While doing some things over and over again can be very meaningful, what makes you think everything will be repetitious? I’m sure there will be an endless amount of new, interesting, creative things to do .

You are confused. I am not saying that it would be repetitious, monotonous or tedious. I, personally, see a point whether I experience these things once, twice, ten, a quadrillion or and uncountable number of times. It is you who is questioning the point of life if one does not live for eternity.

Well, not if one’s eternity, beyond physical death, is the point of it all.

I do not see any reasonable connection between how long one lives and the "point of it all". You do. Please justify your position that eternal life is required in order for their to be a "point of it all."

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

If there is only the material world and that is all humans knew, how did anyone invent or come up with the idea of God in the first place? Can a person even think or fantasize about something that doesn’t exist in the physical world?

Because Gods WERE part of material reality back then.