Questions for God

[ppp]

Because He is All Knowing.

You really think that is a rational answer, don't you?

 

[Trailblazer]

You really think that is a rational answer, don't you?

It's perfectly rational.

 

[blü 2]

Not that its relevant here but the only claim I've made is a belief in the omniscient Christian God.

Therefore you claim to know HOW God knows there's nothing [he] doesn't know [he] doesn't know, then?

So, your claim is dealing with the Christian God specifically.
What claim have you made you might wish to ask since anti-theists love to claim they make no claims and therefore the onus is on the theist to prove whatever?

I'm not making a claim; I'm examining the question HOW God can know know there's nothing [he] doesn't know [he] doesn't know. And in the absence of a rational answer to that question I'll claim that God can't rationally be called omniscient.

it is imperative that we understand what is meant by the terms involved.

The word is Latin for 'all-knowing'. We're focusing on each of the two elements.

 

[blü 2]

Physical qualities of God? Do you assume the physical is all that exists.

In the sense of existing in reality, the world external to the self, yes, of course. If it were otherwise you could point out the parts you say are non-physical and we could examine them to test your claim.

I don't deny they exist in individual brains as things imagined, concepts, ideas.

Must God be in your terms only?

Must God be objectively real? Only if the claim is made that God is objectively real. If you're not claiming that, please at once say so and that will save much time.

Do you really want to see God?

Of course. Do you see a real, a non-imaginary God from time to time? Then please be sure to take a camera and post some photos or videos of [him].

Can't you demonstrate that you existed before last Thursday?

Demonstrate that I'm wrong.

 

[blü 2]

Because He is All Knowing.

No, that's mere assertion. It can't be correct if there's no way for God to know there's nothing [he] doesn't know [he] doesn't know.

So show it's correct by showing HOW God knows there's nothing [he] doesn't know [he] doesn't know.

 

[ReformedGuitarist]

Well, since I accept the Bible as authoritative (which is a different conversation) my answer to this question is quite simple. Mark 10:27b says “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.” If your question is how God knows all things, I think you're asking the wrong question. Because that question presupposes that God functions by the same rules we do.

If God follows the same rules that we do, then of course the idea of omniscience is ludicrous. So if your argument comes down to "humans can't understand the concept of Omniscience, so therefore it must be false", I don't think that makes much sense. The Biblical God has the capability to function outside of our concepts of space, time, and reality. So from my perspective, wether or not a human can understand the intricate workings of exactly how a certain aspect of God functions does not determine wether or not the said aspect is valid. A lack of understanding of God's knowledge does not make a contradiction against the existence of that knowledge anymore than the ancient widespread belief in a flat earth made our planet any less round.

However, the main problem that I find with your original arguments is that (within your framework) the arguments themselves can't logically make any sense. If you presuppose an irrational universe in which we have no way to verify wether God, ourselves, or the universe is real, then I don't even understand how a rational argument can ever be made for or against anything. If the universe could very well have come into existence last Thursday, be part of a computer simulation, or simply be the pipe dream of the ripe (and unbeknownst to us, highly intelligent) peach sitting on your kitchen counter, then the universe (or lack thereof) in which we live doesn't need to follow any rules at all (or at least not coherent ones). Arguments like that can (and have to) be used to invalidate any rational standard of logic or information, including scripture, science, and your own capacity for rational thought.

So, if you want to invalidate my arguments (and everyone else's) on the basis of your idea of an irrational universe, go right ahead. I however believe that we live in a perfectly rational universe created by a perfectly rational God who gave us a perfectly rational revelation in the form of scripture. I believe that God's rational universe and his rational revelation in scripture line up perfectly, and give us a coherent framework through which we can understand reality, and on which we can stand to have rational arguments like this one. So if God's scripture says that he is omniscient, and since I see no apparent contradiction between that idea and God's creation and upkeep of a rational universe, I have no problem accepting God as an omniscient God.

 

[InChrist]

None of those words change the fact that solving someone's hunger problem after someone has died is crap. As @Kelly of the Phoenix has said, and you have callously ignored a person in need of food is in need now.

No, I am not callously ignoring the hunger or needs of people. On the contrary, Jesus stated that whatever we do to help the least or those in need is to serve Him. You really have no idea what I may be doing on a personal level to help hungry people or those in need, so you shouldn’t be getting off on assumptions or personal insults.
My point is that God created human beings as eternal beings, therefore God’s priority is their eternal destiny and well-being. Life is short, eternity is forever.
In the meantime, Christians are called and instructed by God’s Word to care for the physical, as well as spiritual needs of those around them.

 

[InChrist]

Which is why rational minds don't assume the scriptures is true and to be interpreted literally. Those who do interpret it literally can't demonstrate that they are correct. They struggle to explain how it makes any sense in the real world. That means the more literalist the believer, the more into illusion and fantasy they live.

Or it means that someone who shuts their mind off to the spiritual realm is deceiving themselves and missing a big part of reality.

 

[ppp]

No, I am not callously ignoring the hunger or needs of people. On the contrary, Jesus stated that whatever we do to help the least or those in need is to serve Him. You really have no idea what I may be doing on a personal level to help hungry people or those in need, so you shouldn’t be getting off on assumptions or personal insults.

I am speaking in the context of the arguments and statements being put forth on these forums. I do not have access to what you did today or what you ate this morning, and I do not pretend to. The world is full of people who act in one way everywhere, save for circumstances involving their gods, or their families, or something else that it near and dear to them. People are complicated and messy.

My point is that God created human beings as eternal beings, therefore God’s priority is their eternal destiny and well-being. Life is short, eternity is forever.

That's is a poor point.

• Abusing your kid today is not excused by treating him well every other day of his existence. Even if that existence never ends.
• An omnipotent being does not have priorities. Priorities are things that we fleshy mortals establish because we have limited time, limited resources and limited ability.

 

[Trailblazer]

Abusing your kid today is not excused by treating him well every other day of his existence.

God is not abusing anyone. It is humans who are responsible for the hunger problem in this world.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I believe God has the right to take life whenever He wants just as He has the right to give and save life when He wishes.

Nobody has that right, or else we all do. You give gods special status there, but I don't. The reason we don't kill gods is not because we don't have the right to kill a god that would kill us.

I think eternal life means endless love, relationships, beauty, creativity, learning, new experiences, joy and so much more. I look forward to such a wonderful state of being.

It means endless everything that is possible. It means that even if your god exists, it will eventually turn on you. It means that even if heaven exists, people in heaven will eventually revolt like the angels allegedly did.

Hypothetical: You just died and are asked do you want to go on being conscious or unconscious for eternity knowing only what you know now plus the fact that there actually is an afterlife and the possibility of immortality as well as somebody or somebodies to facilitate your preference. The catch is that this decision is irreversible. You have to make it now and you won't be able to undo your decision. What do you choose? That's an easy one for me. Nighty-night. Back to my prebirth status, which was never unpleasant.

The alternative is the possibility if not the likelihood of eventual unimagined horror with no way out. Imagine finding yourself in that position and realizing that you had the chance to opt out, but gambled that it would be a kumbaya afterlife forever. It would become apparent to you then that you had taken a foolish chance that's not even a win even if eternity were pleasant if one could become bored with it eventually and that there was no way out.

Both have something in common - personal relationship.

Nobody has a personal relationship with a god. There needs to be two persons for that to occur, and they need to interact with one another. One cannot have a personal relationship even with an actual person if he never converses with him. Nor with a dead person, nor with a teddy bear, nor with a fictional character, nor with a god even if such a thing exists if it doesn't converse with you.

And he has revealed to us in a way that is understandable - as a person.

Nope. Not a person.

If the resurrection did not take place as the four gospels describe, then how do we explain the explosive growth of the Christian church to over 33 million believers and 56 percent of the Roman Empire’s population, just 300 years after the resurrection was first reported?

Let's stipulate to your numbers. That's still not evidence of a resurrection having occurred. Revivification is impossible once rigor and dependent lividity set in, and once the tissues start to decompose and putrify. Life isn't just a bag of ingredients, but also how they are structured and arranged. Once the cell membranes become incompetent and leak their contents into the surrounding intercellular space, they're not going back in. Once the oxidative phosphorylation enzymes fall from the mitochondrial cristae, they cannot function as an electron transport chain:

There is no possibility that 5 million Christians would willingly go to their death, if they were not convinced that Jesus had risen.

So what? That doesn't make them correct. How many died fighting Americas post-WWII wars because they believed they were protecting democracy and their neighbors? That's human nature to deceive and be deceived like that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nobody has that right, or else we all do. You give gods special status there, but I don't. The reason we don't kill gods is not because we don't have the right to kill a god that would kill us.

It is not about having the right, it is about having the power.
The reason we don't kill God is not because we don't have the power to kill a God.

 

[InChrist]

I am speaking in the context of the arguments and statements being put forth on these forums. I do not have access to what you did today or what you ate this morning, and I do not pretend to. The world is full of people who act in one way everywhere, save for circumstances involving their gods, or their families, or something else that it near and dear to them. People are complicated and messy.


That's is a poor point.

• Abusing your kid today is not excused by treating him well every other day of his existence. Even if that existence never ends.
• An omnipotent being does not have priorities. Priorities are things that we fleshy mortals establish because we have limited time, limited resources and limited ability.

Who are you as a finite being with limited knowledge, compared to an infinite omnipotent Being, to say or assume such a Being doesn’t have plans or priorities for His creation? According to the scriptures, God uses all things and works through every situation to accomplish His goals. Obviously, plenty of evil takes place and bad things happen in this physical world which the Bible clearly states is the result of human sin and the consequence of life in a fallen world damaged by sin. Nevertheless, God is allowing it temporarily because He has valid reasons to do so; one main one is likely as a wake up call to humanity that we are making a mess, harming ourselves and others, and destroying God’s creation/property.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The reason we don't kill God is not because we don't have the power to kill a God.

That would be one reason. Others include that gods don't exist, they can't be killed, or that we like them and want them well and functional.

But that wasn't my point. My point was regarding rights. I disagree that a god would have the right to kill me even if it had the unstoppable power to do so, and if there is an argument that it does have that right, that argument applies to every agent capable of killing including your right and mine to kill a killable god. I don't accept the idea that because a god created me that it has the right to kill me just because I can't stop it.

Who are you as a finite being with limited knowledge, compared to an infinite omnipotent Being, to say or assume such a Being doesn’t have plans or priorities for His creation?

Why should we care unless threatened? I have plans and priorities for myself despite being finite and mortal.

 

[InChrist]

It means endless everything that is possible. It means that even if your god exists, it will eventually turn on you. It means that even if heaven exists, people in heaven will eventually revolt like the angels allegedly did.

Hypothetical: You just died and are asked do you want to go on being conscious or unconscious for eternity knowing only what you know now plus the fact that there actually is an afterlife and the possibility of immortality as well as somebody or somebodies to facilitate your preference. The catch is that this decision is irreversible. You have to make it now and you won't be able to undo your decision. What do you choose? That's an easy one for me. Nighty-night. Back to my prebirth status, which was never unpleasant.

The alternative is the possibility if not the likelihood of eventual unimagined horror with no way out. Imagine finding yourself in that position and realizing that you had the chance to opt out, but gambled that it would be a kumbaya afterlife forever. It would become apparent to you then that you had taken a foolish chance that's not even a win even if eternity were pleasant if one could become bored with it eventually and that there was no way out.

Heaven will be composed of individuals whose lives have been transformed by Christ. Individuals who willingly chose to trust Jesus Christ, rather than self rule and therefore were born again to new eternal life in Christ. All those in heaven will never revolt as the fallen angels did, nor will they ever have the slightest desire to do so. There will be perfect unity and love between God and redeemed humans forever. God would no more turn against those who have been saved by Jesus than He could turn against His beloved Son.

I find your other two scenarios irrelevant.

 

[Trailblazer]

But that wasn't my point. My point was regarding rights. I disagree that a god would have the right to kill me even if it had the unstoppable power to do so, and if there is an argument that it does have that right, that argument applies to every agent capable of killing including your right and mine to kill a killable god. I don't accept the idea that because a god created me that it has the right to kill me just because I can't stop it.

God does not kill anyone. People die.

 

[ChristineM]

God does not kill anyone

Ehm... Have you read the old testament?

 

[blü 2]

Heaven will be composed of individuals whose lives have been transformed by Christ. Individuals who willingly chose to trust Jesus Christ, rather than self rule and therefore were born again to new eternal life in Christ. All those in heaven will never revolt as the fallen angels did, nor will they ever have the slightest desire to do so. There will be perfect unity and love between God and redeemed humans forever. God would no more turn against those who have been saved by Jesus than He could turn against His beloved Son.

What for?

What kind of God has nothing better to do than snuggle up with dead Christians?

 

[Trailblazer]

Ehm... Have you read the old testament?

I have but I don't buy into what it says that God did since it is anthropomorphic.

 

[ChristineM]

I have but I don't buy into what it says that God did since it is anthropomorphic.

You are in a minority