The Four Dirty Secrets Against Darwin Evolution

[Valjean]

... After all if you can't trust what was written, how do you know that part is accurate either. Maybe it was just wishful thinking. ( I agree with those that believe it did happen.)

Just because something is "written" doesn't give it any credibility -- especially when there is neither reliable testimony nor objective evidence supporting it.

Rational people believe what's objectively evidenced, and defer belief in what's not.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Absolutely not! That simply doesn't follow.
Please learn how to reason.

Atheists are making no claim. We have no burden of proof.
No god, Leprechauns, Easter bunnies or unicorns is the logical, epistemic default. Deferred belief waits only for the believers to meet their burden.

You are making the claim there is no God.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

But basic atheism makes no such claim. It just withholds belief pending evidence, just as it does with leprechauns.

Yes, some atheists do make a positive claim, and thereby assume a burden of proof. How well they defend their claim varies with the individual. Most can defend it better than theists can defend their God claim.

Nah, they can't defend their claim that there is no God. They can only argue.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Just because something is "written" doesn't give it any credibility -- especially when there is neither reliable testimony nor objective evidence supporting it.

Rational people believe what's objectively evidenced, and defer belief in what's not.

That's exactly why I don't give any credibility to the scientific claims about what supposedly happened billions of years ago.

 

[Pogo]

Nah, they can't defend their claim that there is no God. They can only argue.

Yup, it is a belief, just as valid or invalid as your belief.

 

[Valjean]

You are making the claim there is no God.

?????
I make no such claim. I claim theists have not met their burden, so I reasonably defer belief.
Lack of belief ≠ belief in absence.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Yup, it is a belief, just as valid or invalid as your belief.

True that both are a belief. The only thing is if one is true, then it would actually be more valid wouldn't it?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

?????
I make no such claim. I claim theists have not met their burden, so I reasonably defer belief.
Lack of belief ≠ belief in absence.

Great, since you are making no claim that there is not a God. Then at least you are acknowledging that it is possible there is a God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Maybe all those miracles performed were just a story. Maybe he didn't part the waters of the Jordan either. Maybe Moses didn't strike the rock and water come out. If it's only a story, maybe it's only a myth that you were the people of God? After all if you can't trust what was written, how do you know that part is accurate either. Maybe it was just wishful thinking. ( I agree with those that believe it did happen.)

Again, I think if you are asking the question, "Did this really happen" you are asking the wrong question. Our questions should be, "What can I learn from this about who I am as a Jew? How does this bring me closer to God? How can I use this to become a better person?"

Rather than asking, "How can I know if the Jews are the People of God," I prefer to ask, "How can I be a child of God?"

 

[Valjean]

Nah, they can't defend their claim that there is no God. They can only argue.

Are you seriously sticking with this strawman?

 

[YoursTrue]

Maybe all those miracles performed were just a story. Maybe he didn't part the waters of the Jordan either. Maybe Moses didn't strike the rock and water come out. If it's only a story, maybe it's only a myth that you were the people of God? After all if you can't trust what was written, how do you know that part is accurate either. Maybe it was just wishful thinking. ( I agree with those that believe it did happen.)

I've been asking questions like that for a while now, and I notice those types of questions can upset some. So then -- there are rituals based on what many religious people consider untrue or myths. Thus the scripture just related in a post is enlightening. Here is another:

John 8:37-43 -
"I know you are Abraham’s descendants, but you are trying to kill me because my word has no place within you. I speak of what I have seen in the presence of the Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”
“Abraham is our father,” they replied.
“If you were children of Abraham,” said Jesus, “you would do the works of Abraham. But now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. You are doing the works of your father.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they declared. “Our only Father is God Himself.”
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own, but He sent me.
Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept my message."

 

[Valjean]

Yup, it is a belief, just as valid or invalid as your belief.

No. Atheism is not a belief.

 

[Pogo]

True that both are a belief. The only thing is if one is true, then it would actually be more valid wouldn't it?

Yes, but with no evidence to make a decision, the rational answer is to withhold belief as Valjean is trying to tell you. This is basic logic.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Again, I think if you are asking the question, "Did this really happen" you are asking the wrong question. Our questions should be, "What can I learn from this about who I am as a Jew? How does this bring me closer to God? How can I use this to become a better person?"

Rather than asking, "How can I know if the Jews are the People of God," I prefer to ask, "How can I be a child of God?"

How can it bring you any closer to God, if it is only imaginary? That would be no different than someone starting a new religion, and making up a story to make them feel good about themselves.

 

[Pogo]

No. Atheism is not a belief.

I was referring to the positive claim of no god. Sorry if it was not clear.

 

[Valjean]

Great, since you are making no claim that there is not a God. Then at least you are acknowledging that it is possible there is a God.

Exactly! Now you're getting it, and as soon as you can produce some rational objective evidence we'll all be believers.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Yes, but with no evidence to make a decision, the rational answer is to withhold belief as Valjean is trying to tell you. This is basic logic.

See his post to you, even he disagreed with you that it was a belief. Maybe you should let him tell me what he thinks.

 

[Valjean]

That's exactly why I don't give any credibility to the scientific claims about what supposedly happened billions of years ago.

But the scientific claims are based on a great deal of objective, demonstrable, empirical evidence -- that you seem unaware of or do not understand.
"Scientific claims" are always based on evidence, never on tradition, convenience, personal status, or testimony.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Exactly! Now you're getting it, and as soon as you can produce some rational objective evidence we'll all be believers.

I feel that same way about evolution. Can't have life evolving if there is no life to begin with. It took God breathing into man the breath of life for living man to exist. Explain how science solves it?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

How can it bring you any closer to God, if it is only imaginary? That would be no different than someone starting a new religion, and making up a story to make them feel good about themselves.

Oh my goodness. I can think of no greater way to transmit values than fiction. Think of how Jesus used parables. The fact that no Good Samaritan ever literally existed does not at all detract from the lesson that we should help those in need regardless of ethnicity. Just an hour or so ago, I was sharing with someone how the Lord of the Rings had been instrumental in shaping my teenage conscience. One of the reasons I read a lot of science fiction is that it is so good at turning over ethical issues.