Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I will certainly give you that!
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Article, “Internal Proofs of Bible Authenticity”
- Thread starter Hockeycowboy
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
but if it was indeed a myth then only a mythical god would be at fault, not the real God.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
I know. It is a self refuting religious belief. I often try to point out that the fact that life is the product of evolution does not refute the existence of a God. It only refutes bad versions of God. One can be almost any religion as long as one understands that holy books quite often use fables and allegories. Those still "work" in a religion as a teaching tool
He is published.
What would have been the outcome, if Adam hadn’t eaten the fruit, ie., disobeyed the command not to eat from that tree? (And yes, as I showed you a few months back, it was a command — see below.)
He would never have died!
You can’t see that?
I never said immortal, and neither does the text imply that.
Having endless life, does not mean having immortality.
Angels have endless life, but they are not immortal. In fact, many of them — Satan and the demons [ = ‘the dragon and his angels’ - Rev.12:9] — will be destroyed.
Because they disobeyed.
Genesis 3:17…
“And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’….
And vss 22 & 23….
“Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” 23 With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken.
It was so that Adam wouldn’t eat of the Tree of Life…. It had nothing to do with the Tree of Knowledge, anymore.
They’d already done that.
The result of eating, was, that they felt shame in their being naked.
Shame was not a feeling they’d ever had before, as perfect humans.
Good night.
Do you realize, by saying the Edenic account is myth, then there’s really no reason for Jesus to die? It has no value, if his sacrifice wasn’t “redemptive”, ie., had nothing to redeem.
Revelation 21:4
Revelation 21:4
Please, how do you come to that conclusion?
I believe the Bible teaches, regarding Adam and Eve, that they had an opportunity to live forever on earth. God never said that they would die, unless they eat from the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden.
Isn’t that how you read it?
Revelation 21:3,4 shows
3) … “ Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them.
4) And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more. The former things have passed away.
These verses show that God is with mankind. Individuals have an opportunity to live forever on earth if they choose to do so.
Which normal human life span are you referring to?
Are you referring to the human life span of about 900 years prior to the flood or 80 years in our timeline?
Please, why would God put them on earth, just to die later and go to heaven?
Psalm 139:14 says:
I praise you because in an awe-inspiring way I am wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful, I know this very well.
Mortal bodies continuously replace old cells with new ones.
We die, due to sin, which we inherited from Adam/Eve - genetically inherited ( not any other way )
Romans 5:12
That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned-.
Jesus is considered the last Adam. A perfect man, just like Adam. A equal price had to be paid in order to save mankind from the permanent death sentence Adam gave to his offspring.
Of course, but the laws of the OT were for when Hebrews were not slaves, but slave owners,
The Bible Hebrews by their laws owned, bought and sold slaves
YouTube videos made from cut and paste non-science is not evidence for anything.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Where? And if he is why didn't you link it? And even more important, what do other scholars have to say about him.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No, the Garden of Eden myth tried to explain why man is not perfect. Myth or not man is not perfect. One can still argue that redemption is needed.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Oh we can see that. Why can't you see that according to the myth that he did not know right from wrong so a "command" is meaningless.
It sort of does. That is the general definition.
Once again, a command is meaningless if a person does not know right from wrong.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, I do not realize that and it is illogical because you are saying there could have been no other reason for Jesus to die.
But there was another reason for Jesus to die, and it is explained in this chapter.
We were redeemed by the cross sacrifice, but we were not redeemed from any original sin of A&E.
Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?
Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.
The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.
All sin comes from the demands of nature, and these demands, which arise from the physical qualities, are not sins with respect to the animals, while for man they are sin. The animal is the source of imperfections, such as anger, sensuality, jealousy, avarice, cruelty, pride: all these defects are found in animals but do not constitute sins. But in man they are sins.
Adam is the cause of man’s physical life; but the Reality of Christ—that is to say, the Word of God—is the cause of spiritual life. It is “a quickening spirit,” meaning that all the imperfections which come from the requirements of the physical life of man are transformed into human perfections by the teachings and education of that spirit. Therefore, Christ was a quickening spirit, and the cause of life in all mankind.
Adam was the cause of physical life, and as the physical world of man is the world of imperfections, and imperfections are the equivalent of death, Paul compared the physical imperfections to death.
But the mass of the Christians believe that, as Adam ate of the forbidden tree, He sinned in that He disobeyed, and that the disastrous consequences of this disobedience have been transmitted as a heritage and have remained among His descendants. Hence Adam became the cause of the death of humanity. This explanation is unreasonable and evidently wrong, for it means that all men, even the Prophets and the Messengers of God, without committing any sin or fault, but simply because they are the posterity of Adam, have become without reason guilty sinners, and until the day of the sacrifice of Christ were held captive in hell in painful torment.
This is far from the justice of God. If Adam was a sinner, what is the sin of Abraham? What is the fault of Isaac, or of Joseph? Of what is Moses guilty?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Show me where the Bible says that if Adam hadn’t eaten the fruit Adam would not have died.
And while you are at it please show me where the Bible says that if A&E hadn't eaten the fruit NOBODY who lived after them would have died.
The Bible does not say that if Adam hadn’t eaten the fruit Adam would not have died. The Bible says:
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
And then you and other Christians assumed that meant that Adam would not have died if he hadn't eaten the fruit.
A&E did not die physically on the day they ate the fruit so is God a liar? No, God was truthful because A&E died spiritually on that day.
Did Adam and Eve die when they ate the forbidden fruit?
Their physical condition changed as a result of their eating the forbidden fruit. As God had promised, they became mortal. They and their children would experience sickness, pain, and physical death. Because of their transgression, Adam and Eve also suffered spiritual death.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
How do you come to that conclusion that God’s purpose for mankind was to have Endless life on Earth?
No, that is not how I read it.
Show me where the Bible says that Adam and Eve would not die unless they eat from the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden.
The Bible does not say that if Adam and Eve hadn’t eaten the fruit they would not have died. The Bible says:
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
And then Christians assumed that meant that Adam and Eve would not have died if they hadn't eaten the fruit.
Adam and Eve did not die physically on the day they ate the fruit so is God a liar? No, God was truthful because Adam and Eve died spiritually on that day.
Did Adam and Eve die when they ate the forbidden fruit?
Their physical condition changed as a result of their eating the forbidden fruit. As God had promised, they became mortal. They and their children would experience sickness, pain, and physical death. Because of their transgression, Adam and Eve also suffered spiritual death.
I know that is a doctrine of your church but it is not supported by the Bible.
Nowhere does the Bible say that individuals have an opportunity to live forever on earth if they choose to do so.
No more death means no more spiritual death, not no more physical death. Physical death will always exist on earth because human bodies were created mortal.
I am referring to a normal human life span of 80 years. No human ever lived for 900 years.
The reason we were put on earth was to learn the lessons we need to learn to prepare ourselves for life in heaven.
We are here to grow spiritually so we will be prepared to live in heaven which is a spiritual world.
Where did you get these ideas? We die because the human body is mortal, it has nothing to do with sin.
Whether we sin or not we will all die eventually.
Mortal bodies were never made to live forever. Mortal bodies are only for living on earth for a given life span.
God is not going to restore physical life. God created the human body to be mortal, not immortal.
When we die physically we do not really die because we are not our body. Our soul is who we are and our soul is immortal.
After the physical body dies, our soul will assume another form, a spiritual body.
Our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God which is in heaven. These dying bodies cannot exist in heaven, which will last forever.
1 Corinthians 15
New Living Translation
35 But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?”
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!
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I could show you all kinds of related Scriptures, and reason on them with you, but would it affect you?
Why would Jehovah put man on the Earth, if His purpose was ultimately for humans to live in Heaven? He’s already got the angels there….why put us here first?
Is God going to straighten / clean up these conditions on Earth? Apparently so, from what we read @ Isaiah 11:6-9; Psalm 37:10,11,29; Daniel 7:13,14; Ephesians 1:10; etc.
Then why would the people who lived in the past, why did they have to suffer through unjust & painful conditions we have had since Eden, when future mankind won’t have to? That’s unjust.
Unless those who’ve died, will be given another chance, of living in a perfect Earth, with perfect people. The resurrected ones will themselves have that opportunity!
Tell me, where in the Bible does it say “Heaven is the destination”?
Since the Bible states “the unrighteous” will also be resurrected, “coming out of the Memorial tombs” (John 5:28,29), why are they going to Heaven?
What did God tell Adam? He told Adam, “if you eat from the tree, you will die.” Right? That’s all God told him! Now if God meant a spiritual death, He would’ve had to explain that meaning!
Adam knew nothing about “spiritual” death.
But he did know about physical death… (Obviously, Adam had seen the animals dying. We know animals have been dying for millions of years.)
Please read my response to blü2.
If Jehovah God had meant another kind of death, then he’s guilty from lying by omission. Adam would have had no idea of any other kind of death.
But Jehovah provided no further explanation.
And when Adam did sin, what did God tell him the outcome would be? At Genesis 3:19, God told Adam, “You will return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are, and to dust you will return.”
I’m sorry I know you don’t like it. But Jehovah was talking to Adam the person, not about his body.
Just as when animals die, they become lifeless, rot, and decay, so do humans. Ecclesiastes 3:19,20 make this point fine.
The only difference between us (as God’s wayward children) & animals, is the hope for humans that animals don’t have: the promised resurrection. BTW, souls “belong” to Jehovah, as Ezekiel 18:4,20 state. At each person’s resurrection, their soul (read: life) will be restored.
Not a recollection of former atoms - that’s gross!
Are you aware, that our body’s atoms are constantly changing, anyway? Every seven years, we have a completely different makeup of cells. But the soul we are — our person, our life — is the same.
Psalms 115:16 tells us that this Earth is given to “the sons of men.” Us.
It’s our home.
This earth is beautiful! Fix it, clean it up, with ‘deserts blossoming as the saffron’ (Isaiah 35:1-6) & ‘abundant grain on mountain tops’ (Psalm 72:16) due to Jehovah God’s blessing, there’ll be plenty of room for quite a while! Jehovah could make more land appear out of the oceans, to accommodate billions more…
Isaiah 45:18.
Goodnight, my cousin.
Why would Jehovah put man on the Earth, if His purpose was ultimately for humans to live in Heaven? He’s already got the angels there….why put us here first?
Is God going to straighten / clean up these conditions on Earth? Apparently so, from what we read @ Isaiah 11:6-9; Psalm 37:10,11,29; Daniel 7:13,14; Ephesians 1:10; etc.
Then why would the people who lived in the past, why did they have to suffer through unjust & painful conditions we have had since Eden, when future mankind won’t have to? That’s unjust.
Unless those who’ve died, will be given another chance, of living in a perfect Earth, with perfect people. The resurrected ones will themselves have that opportunity!
Tell me, where in the Bible does it say “Heaven is the destination”?
Since the Bible states “the unrighteous” will also be resurrected, “coming out of the Memorial tombs” (John 5:28,29), why are they going to Heaven?
Only if you insist that the Creative Days were literally 24-hr days. But this is actually evidence that they were not literal. (I wrote these things to blü2.)
What did God tell Adam? He told Adam, “if you eat from the tree, you will die.” Right? That’s all God told him! Now if God meant a spiritual death, He would’ve had to explain that meaning!
Adam knew nothing about “spiritual” death.
But he did know about physical death… (Obviously, Adam had seen the animals dying. We know animals have been dying for millions of years.)
Please read my response to blü2.
If Jehovah God had meant another kind of death, then he’s guilty from lying by omission. Adam would have had no idea of any other kind of death.
But Jehovah provided no further explanation.
And when Adam did sin, what did God tell him the outcome would be? At Genesis 3:19, God told Adam, “You will return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are, and to dust you will return.”
I’m sorry I know you don’t like it. But Jehovah was talking to Adam the person, not about his body.
Just as when animals die, they become lifeless, rot, and decay, so do humans. Ecclesiastes 3:19,20 make this point fine.
The only difference between us (as God’s wayward children) & animals, is the hope for humans that animals don’t have: the promised resurrection. BTW, souls “belong” to Jehovah, as Ezekiel 18:4,20 state. At each person’s resurrection, their soul (read: life) will be restored.
Not a recollection of former atoms - that’s gross!
Are you aware, that our body’s atoms are constantly changing, anyway? Every seven years, we have a completely different makeup of cells. But the soul we are — our person, our life — is the same.
Psalms 115:16 tells us that this Earth is given to “the sons of men.” Us.
It’s our home.
This earth is beautiful! Fix it, clean it up, with ‘deserts blossoming as the saffron’ (Isaiah 35:1-6) & ‘abundant grain on mountain tops’ (Psalm 72:16) due to Jehovah God’s blessing, there’ll be plenty of room for quite a while! Jehovah could make more land appear out of the oceans, to accommodate billions more…
Isaiah 45:18.
Goodnight, my cousin.
Look, this from your own post:
Have a great day ...
By inference from the rules of the tale, I'd say either Adam and Eve would eat the fruit of the Tree of Life and life forever, but not in the Garden since God on that account would presumably chuck him/them out;, or they would not eat any relevant fruit, but continue to enjoy the comforts of the Garden of Eden until they died of old age like the other animals.
Ahm, if you're never going to die, doesn't that make you immortal?
I can't find any reports on the life-cycle of angels in the Tanakh, so I'll refrain from devising an answer.
But I don't acknowledge the right of the NT authors to say what the Tanakh means. For instance, Jesus doesn't fit any stated definition of a Jewish messiah, never having been a civil, military or religious leader of the Jewish people, nor anointed by the Jewish priesthood (which as you know is what 'messiah' means).
I think I responded to that before. I pointed out that at the time Eve and Adam respectively ate the fruit, they had no knowledge of good and evil because God had deliberately withheld it from them, which made them incapable of forming an intention to do wrong and therefore incapable of sinning. And they were in that condition when they ate the fruit. Note too that they thus had no notion that disobedience was wrong.
As your quote of Genesis 3:22-23 says ─ though once more I emphasize that it's a folktale with no historical basis ─ what worried God was that their acquisition of the KGE made them like [him] and if they then ate from the tree of life and became immortal they'd have the same powers as [he] had, so [he] chucked them out of the Garden instead of moving the trees to a safe place.
All the best.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No response? I thought that you did not believe that fairy tale. Or if you prefer fable. As history it fails. That is what certain Christians do and I explained how that is a failed approach to the myth. It can still work as a morality tale. If you one tries to interpret it literally one insults God.