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  1. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    KattieMyGirl: I mean, I'm assuming the word saved means receive eternal life. So eating Christ's flesh and drinking his blood seems to be a condition for living forever just as much as baptism does. But what do you think?
  2. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Thanks, KatieMyGirl. Your thoughts were extremely helpful, and I think you are correct about baptism. :) Do you think I also am correct in thinking that eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus also saves us? 53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of...
  3. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    I just wanted to thank everyone for helping me think this through. What I learned: We are saved by grace We are saved through repentance So although we are saved through faith, we are not saved through faith alone Repentance and faith are conditions we must meet to receive saving grace So grace...
  4. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Yes, now I see. Thank you! And please forgive me for being so slow to understand. I think it's a not the most accurate choice of words, though--whether it was Luther or some other good Christian who coined the phrase. "Faith apart from works" rather than "Faith alone" would be less likely to...
  5. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    I'm not sure what that middle ground would be. One says only the good works God created for us to do and empowers us to do contribute to our salvation, the other says the good works God created for us to do and empowers us to do do not contribute to our salvation but do contribute to our...
  6. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    There is another possibility: A cause having two effects, where neither effect causes the other. So then, here is the point a Calvinist or Fundamentalist or Evangelical might make: It is possible faith causes salvation, and faith also causes baptism, but baptism does NOT cause salvation. It's...
  7. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    I do appreciate the time you took to investigate the relationship of faith and repentance, Atpollard. I hope that you will answer the question I've asked a few times: How can it be true we are saved through faith alone, since we are saved through faith AND repentance? I'm thinking (1) and (2)...
  8. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Agreed. Perhaps baptism is a response to both faith and repentance? Well, there is some disagreement about what works are. Catholics and some other Christians say Ephesians 2:9 is speaking of works of the Old Testament law, such as circumcision, animal sacrifice, not working on the Sabbath and...
  9. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Excellent! Instead of telling me I'm wrong, you first ask a good question. SO-CRATES would approve! :) My answer: I think repentance might not be a good deed because of what John the Baptist said: "Produce fruit in keeping with repentance." (Matthew 3:8 and Luke 3:8) I'm thinking the fruit...
  10. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    You might be right. Though I fear I make no friends of those whom I ask about the relationship of faith and repentance. I suppose that's one downside of the Socratic Method. What is better--to keep my mouth shut when someone says something I think might not be true, or to ask them why they...
  11. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Atpollard: It appears I need to do some damage control. The word dishonest implies I know that what I'm saying is untrue. Please understand this is not the case. If what I say is not true, then I am deceived, and I am grateful to you for revealing this to me. My friend, I'm confused. I've said...
  12. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Sounds logical to me. But please let me be sure I understand. Are you saying works cause grace? Or do you rather think grace causes works?
  13. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    It would seem so. Although I understand the response of some Calvinists and others who say Peter's words should be interpreted this way: "Repent ... for the forgiveness of your sins [and then be baptized]." If this was the Apostle's intended meaning, then repentance would be a cause of both...
  14. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Hi, Psychoslice. Why is it that I can't have one without the other?
  15. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    I suppose we might say the same of Paul's quote: By grace you are saved through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it's the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. When asked why he does not mention faith, which is generally required, we might answer that Paul was not...
  16. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Good night. Thanks for the discussion. Hope to pick it up again with you sometime soon. :)
  17. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Excellent! So then, considering my question, "How should we understand the wise Calvin? Was he saying: 1. repentance is not a cause of salvation? 2. repentance is the same thing as faith? 3. justification is not enough to save us, because we also need to repent? 4. something else?" Your...
  18. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Yes, I have to agree. Since repentance is a prerequisite for faith, it is also a prerequisite for salvation. Hence we are saved not by faith alone, but by faith and repentance. What then should we make of Calvin's statement? We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies us is...
  19. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    No?
  20. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Yes?
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