‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I know that God is good because that is in Scriptures. Scriptures are the only way to know what God is like.

God does not have to measure up to human standards, what humans consider good. God is good by His nature.

But you're a human (right?) and you consider God good... no?

If the standards of good and evil don't apply to God, then God cannot be good.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

If people had no free will to chose, who would tell them...for example what their favorite color is? What their favorite food is?

Who told you what your favorite color and foods are?

if we are preprogrammed, we are nothing more than a robot who has had it choices programmed in to it.

And that would be bad why? It sounds like a good deal if it were possible to program people to want what is good and right. I would have done that with my own children had I had the powers of a god. Instead, I had to find ways to persuade them not to lie, cheat, steal, etc.. That's not a choice I would want them to make.

Incidentally, supposing it were the case that free will is just an illusion and that we are completely programmed to have the ideas we do and execute them. Perhaps we are mistaking the experience of receiving an imperative from unseen neural structures and obeying it unimpeded as being more than a robot.

Ask yourself this: If you discovered unequivocally that you were a robot - just an observer that becomes aware of desires generated outside of consciousness, and of the bodily responses to it - what changes for you? Are you suddenly unhappy?

It's a strange idea, but imagine it. You have just discovered that we all have never been anything but what you call a robot. Is that bad? It was fine before you learned that, and thought that you were the author of your will. What would you do differently. Nothing. That's the point. You wouldn't actually be making choices anyway, even choosing your reaction, which at first would be shock and disorientation, and later, you would return to life as usual, now aware that it had always been robotic, and that is good. You might wonder why you weren't better programmed, why you get destructive impulses that at times lead to destructive behavior.

Free will is an enigma for monotheists (I know Christians best, so they will be whom I refer to). They don't really approve of it, although they need it if they are to justify worshiping a deity that punishes for disobedience. This is unjust anyway, but would be more so if it were demonstrated that the disobedience was inevitable, i.e, that there is no free will.

But it's that disobedience that they object to, the expression of which they often condemn. They describe it as willful rebellion. The Bible is written in commands. If you express free will there and choose what they call sin, you will be punished in the afterlife.

If you are a Christian, everybody expects you to suppress free will and comply. Your Sunday school teacher doesn't like it when you question dogma. Your fellow congregants will ostracize you for expressing it (by which I mean, doing what you want rather than what you are expected to do). Your priest or minister doesn't approve. And you are taught that when you get to heaven, God won't approve of you exercising free will. Yet we're asked to believe that this was God's plan. That's just not believable. All of those people named would dial in your behavior if they could and strip you of free will as I said I would with my children if I could. Nobody likes it. It's just how it is.

If we could program everybody to want a vaccine, we would. Everybody would be as happy to get one as I was.

 

[We Never Know]

Who told you what your favorite color and foods are?



And that would be bad why? It sounds like a good deal if it were possible to program people to want what is good and right. I would have done that with my own children had I had the powers of a god. Instead, I had to find ways to persuade them not to lie, cheat, steal, etc.. That's not a choice I would want them to make.

Incidentally, supposing it were the case that free will is just an illusion and that we are completely programmed to have the ideas we do and execute them. Perhaps we are mistaking the experience of receiving an imperative from unseen neural structures and obeying it unimpeded as being more than a robot.

Ask yourself this: If you discovered unequivocally that you were a robot - just an observer that becomes aware of desires generated outside of consciousness, and of the bodily responses to it - what changes for you? Are you suddenly unhappy?

It's a strange idea, but imagine it. You have just discovered that we all have never been anything but what you call a robot. Is that bad? It was fine before you learned that, and thought that you were the author of your will. What would you do differently. Nothing. That's the point. You wouldn't actually be making choices anyway, even choosing your reaction, which at first would be shock and disorientation, and later, you would return to life as usual, now aware that it had always been robotic, and that is good. You might wonder why you weren't better programmed, why you get destructive impulses that at times lead to destructive behavior.

Free will is an enigma for monotheists (I know Christians best, so they will be whom I refer to). They don't really approve of it, although they need it if they are to justify worshiping a deity that punishes for disobedience. This is unjust anyway, but would be more so if it were demonstrated that the disobedience was inevitable, i.e, that there is no free will.

But it's that disobedience that they object to, the expression of which they often condemn. They describe it as willful rebellion. The Bible is written in commands. If you express free will there and choose what they call sin, you will be punished in the afterlife.

If you are a Christian, everybody expects you to suppress free will and comply. Your Sunday school teacher doesn't like it when you question dogma. Your fellow congregants will ostracize you for expressing it (by which I mean, doing what you want rather than what you are expected to do). Your priest or minister doesn't approve. And you are taught that when you get to heaven, God won't approve of you exercising free will. Yet we're asked to believe that this was God's plan. That's just not believable. All of those people named would dial in your behavior if they could and strip you of free will as I said I would with my children if I could. Nobody likes it. It's just how it is.

If we could program everybody to want a vaccine, we would. Everybody would be as happy to get one as I was.

I chose my fav color and food.

What is good and right?
Willwhat you think is good and right be good and right for everyone?

 

[Trailblazer]

But you're a human (right?) and you consider God good... no?

Only because the scriptures say God is good.

If the standards of good and evil don't apply to God, then God cannot be good.

Why not?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Only because the scriptures say God is good.

So then the standards of good and evil do apply to God?

Why not?

Because it would be nonsense... like saying that blue is the tallest colour.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If the standards of good and evil don't apply to God, then God cannot be good.

You are just playing with words.

What is good for us, does not apply to G-d as He is not a human being.
It does not follow that G-d cannot have attributes of His own.
eg. He is Holy

 

[loverofhumanity]

Well you illustrate the reason why your approach won't work. You refuse to compromise and sacrifice for the sake of world peace.

And other theist you are asking to give up their religion for yours can believe THEIR beliefs will lead to peace or salvation or whatever their doctrine says. It's obvious there are atheists who agree with the notion of world peace, so they illustrate how you don't need Baha'i to attain that goal. If your real interest was world peace you would work towards that goal, and sacrifice your religious belief for that end. You won't even entertain the idea. Why should others?


God should have foreseen the problems this natural and gradual approach would cause. It didn't, which means maybe this God isn't very good at being a creator.

But it's more likely we humans just evolved both genetically and culturally. And part of the evolution of our brains is inventing gods. And part of that creativity is a diverse set of superstition, ritual, and beliefs, of which some have survived into modernity and many others are extinct. The Baha'i beliefs are yet another evolution where there are adjustments to religious belief that builds on old ideas, and tries to present yet another revelation. Of course the explanation is that God has to manage revelations to the status of humanity. That is the only thing Baha'i could say. To a rational mind this still is not a good look for this God. It suggests it is as flawed and prone to errors as the average human. And let's be honest, this God is likely just another evolved version of human imagination.


Right, fear of the unknown, which is why humans are motivated to create new versions of religion, like Baha'i. Nationalism also is an example of humans who fear the future, so create beliefs and solutions that are expected to help stabilize society and/or the world. As we see this tribalism only causes more division. This division happens because many people are fearful to changes, and then react. There is a real lack of maturity and mental stability. Politics and religion are common ideologies that people retreat into for emotional security. This is why your approach should be to reject your own religion, which serves as an example of stability and maturity. If you need your religion to stand on your own two feet, then you can't argue against others needing theirs.


Almost as if it doesn't exist.


Almost as if it doesn't exist.


False. I'm not convinced anyone's belief in Gods is true, yours included. I can't be against imaginary beings. I can argue against YOUR claims about the God YOU think exists. Let's be honest, you can't present any facts or evidence that your idea of God exists outside of your imagination. I have no obligation to accept your claims, or anyone else's.


This is false. There is no evidence your claim here is true in reality.

Now you can claim that religious belief has helped some desperate people cope and be telling the truth. Religion isn't a God.

I still find it odd that a somewhat modern religion still refers to a God as male, as if it has a penis. This suggests to me that Baha'i just sloppily adopted previous ideas of God from the Abrahamic traditions. If Baha'i wanted to be different they should have changed this gender identity element.

But perhaps they left it in to make the religion more attractive to Muslims, Christians, Mormons, JW, Urantia folks, etc.



The guy did not do a very good job of it. Ideals seldom work in reality. And starting a new religion in a world full of them already as a solution? Been there, done that.

As a number of us have pointed out a non-religious approach would likely be more successful because asking people to quit their traditional religion is a hard sell. Even you won't do it for world peace, so there is the ultimate flaw that Baha’u’llah didn't think about.

Baha’is accept all the other religions so there’s no giving up of one’s previous faith. When one becomes a Baha’i he accepts all the religions.

All the major religions believe in a Promised One that will appear at the time of the end and usher in an age of peace. So our connection to other religions is real because we believe that Baha’u’llah was that One. If that is true then eventually all religions will turn to Him as He is prophesied in their Holy Books.

As to non religious people, the main teaching of Baha’u’llah is the oneness of humanity, acceptance of all people of whatever race, religion, non religion, nationality and gender as equals. But we need to have a prejudice free outlook if we are to establish peace.

 

[Trailblazer]

So then the standards of good and evil do apply to God?

No, I did not say that. God sets the standards of good and evil for humans but God is not subject to those standards since God is not subject to any standards. God is wholly good by His nature, He does not have to strive to be good as humans do.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, I did not say that. God sets the standards of good and evil for humans but God is not subject to those standards since God is not subject to any standards.

If God is not subject to any standards of good and evil, then God is not good.

God is wholly good by His nature, He does not have to strive to be good as humans do.

If God occupies the "good" end of the spectrum of good vs. evil, then God is subject to the standards of good and evil.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Well, I don't know if members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe in free will,

but personally I don't believe in Free Will or time.

I do however believe in God and in consciousness.

I also believe in good and bad, but not as absolutes.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If no one had free will, would we all be like robots?

We're largely robots on auto-pilot even before we can ask the question of if free will exists or not. Such as, conditioning is a real thing. A person is trained, with or without knowledge and consent, to behave in certain ways. Our upbringing has a huge impact on who we grow up to be. Our genes also molds and shapes us. Our own experiences do the same as well. Habits, instincts, reflexes, that's all auto pilot as well. Actually, we're probably less than robots because we don't even take in that much around us.
And after you consider all this there is just no way that free will is such a thing. Our will is far too constrained, making the very word and notion of free will a misnomer.

 

[Lazy Old Devil]

It is a non sequitur to conclude that God has no interest in you or your fellow humans because God does not act like Superman. God is not Superman, God is God. God shows His caring by sending Messengers who reveal teachings and laws. If everyone followed those teachings and laws there would be no evil in the world.

But even if every single person followed the "teachings and laws" of your god, that wouldn't stop all the misery in the world which isn't caused by human actions, such as children dying from painful terminal illnesses. Why the Hell would your god even allow that sort of thing to be a possibility in the first place?

I realise this thread is specifically about free will, but to suggest that everything would be great if only we all followed god's teachings is clearly not the case, as a lot of the bad stuff isn't caused by people exercising their free will.

 

[Trailblazer]

But even if every single person followed the "teachings and laws" of your god, that wouldn't stop all the misery in the world which isn't caused by human actions, such as children dying from painful terminal illnesses.

That is correct. Even if everyone followed the teachings and laws of God there would still be suffering in the world. What I meant is that following the teachings and laws world prevent people from making choices that would lead to evil acts such as rape and murder.

Why the Hell would your god even allow that sort of thing to be a possibility in the first place?

I don't know because I am not God. Only God knows why he created a world that has the potential for so much suffering. Some religionists believe they know and they will give you their apologetic to cover for God but you won't hear that from me. I just say I don't understand and I am not happy about it.

I realise this thread is specifically about free will, but to suggest that everything would be great if only we all followed god's teachings is clearly not the case, as a lot of the bad stuff isn't caused by people exercising their free will.

That is correct and God is responsible for everything that was not freely chosen by us since God determines our fate.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure them because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the bad things happen are beyond our control. That is our fate.

 

[F1fan]

Baha’is accept all the other religions so there’s no giving up of one’s previous faith. When one becomes a Baha’i he accepts all the religions.

This strikes me as lip service. You are one of three Baha'i believers that I know of on this forum and all three of you are pretty aggressive in posting quotes and that your perspective of things is absolute. There's a real lack of humility and sincere openness. You still avoided my question that asked if you would give up your religious beliefs for global peace. You are really resistance to that, even as a hypothetical. It strikes me as fishy somehow. It seems to me your world peace comes from everyone converting to Baha'i. Anything less will be global conflict as we are used to it. I don't know how you accomplish that, your prophets don't offer any methods.

All the major religions believe in a Promised One that will appear at the time of the end and usher in an age of peace. So our connection to other religions is real because we believe that Baha’u’llah was that One. If that is true then eventually all religions will turn to Him as He is prophesied in their Holy Books.

This is pretty much a pattern in the Abrahamic traditions. Except for jews all the religions have their One. You have yours. I don't see any realistic method for Baha'i to convince any other major religious believers to abandon their prophet and saviors for your version. Why would they?

As to non religious people, the main teaching of Baha’u’llah is the oneness of humanity, acceptance of all people of whatever race, religion, non religion, nationality and gender as equals. But we need to have a prejudice free outlook if we are to establish peace.

A non-religious approach would be smart and the best way to attract more people. I don't see any practical method to make that happen.

 

[F1fan]

You are just playing with words.

What is good for us, does not apply to G-d as He is not a human being.
It does not follow that G-d cannot have attributes of His own.
eg. He is Holy

Are you suggesting a perfect God can't manage to behave itself?

Being Holy means having an absolute standard of right. If a God can break its own standards of good and moral then there is no absolute morality. No flawed mortal wants to be judged by a god that breaks the rules, who can't even meet the standard set by a decent, albeit flawed human.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

When I ask believers why their god would allow a serial killer to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime, I am often told that god is helpless to intervene because he gave us all ‘free will’ and that to intervene would be a violation of that ‘free will’. It sounds reasonable at first glance, but this argument doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

I agree that if god were to snap his metaphorical fingers and magically take away the serial killer’s perverse desires or temporarily paralyze him any time he attempted to commit a wicked act that it would be a violation of free will. But why doesn’t god just snap his metaphorical fingers and give the guy a lethal heat attack? Obviously god deciding when a person’s life will come to an end isn’t a violation of their free will otherwise every single person who has ever died unwillingly has had their free will violated, which pretty much includes everyone except for people who commit suicide, sacrifice their lives for others, or are experiencing unendurable suffering.

So after this guy kills his first innocent child why doesn’t god decide to bring his life to an end? Even if god wanted to give the guy the chance to repent and seek forgiveness for his sins, why didn’t god give him a heart attack after the second innocent victim or the third? Why would a loving and caring god allow this maniac to kill a dozen little children and end up dying peacefully in his sleep in his late 80’s?


It obviously has nothing to do with god being helpless to intervene because of the killer’s free will.

From a Christian point of view, this earthly life is full of many possible sufferings and trials that none are exempt from. We look to the promise of the world to come and life eternal, which is far beyond this mortal existence.

Looking to the example of many great Christian Saints who were martyred, they tended to die pretty horrific deaths. You can see this in their personal iconography. St. Denis with his severed head, St. Lucy holding her severed eyes, St. Agatha with her flayed breasts, St. Lawrence who was fried to death on a grill (funnily, he is said to have taunted his killers by saying "you can turn me over now, I'm done on this side") and it goes on and on with those sort of examples, going back to Christ and His Apostles.

In Christianity, God does not promise an easy life. Just the opposite, really. This life is a test and a period of refinement for souls. The Lord Jesus Christ was tortured to death in a horrible way, Himself.

As for the serial killer, he will probably go to hell after death and suffer for all eternity unless he truly repents of his sins against others and God, which there is, in all likelihood, little chance of him doing. As for his child victims, they would most likely be comforted in Heaven with crowns of glory, as the poor man was comforted in the Bosom of Abraham while the rich man who neglected him on the side of the road ended up tormented in hell, due to his own immoral actions.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why the Hell would your god even allow that sort of thing to be a possibility in the first place?

Why is reality the way it is?
Do you think it is all evil?

That is the impression you give by asking such a question.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

But then, if The Gods don't care about us flesh and blood mortals, then why would us flesh and blood mortals care about The Gods?

That's probably the biggest reason why I stopped caring about the Norse deities. If you don't give a damn about me, I'll just return the favor. Not interested in distant deities. Otherwise you're just left with a mechanistic universe that's not much different from just being an atheist.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is pretty much a pattern in the Abrahamic traditions. Except for jews all the religions have their One.

The Jews also have their One and that was Moses. Jews believe they have the only true religion and they reject every Messenger of God that came after Moses.

 

[YoursTrue]

When I ask believers why their god would allow a serial killer to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime, I am often told that god is helpless to intervene because he gave us all ‘free will’ and that to intervene would be a violation of that ‘free will’. It sounds reasonable at first glance, but this argument doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

I agree that if god were to snap his metaphorical fingers and magically take away the serial killer’s perverse desires or temporarily paralyze him any time he attempted to commit a wicked act that it would be a violation of free will. But why doesn’t god just snap his metaphorical fingers and give the guy a lethal heat attack? Obviously god deciding when a person’s life will come to an end isn’t a violation of their free will otherwise every single person who has ever died unwillingly has had their free will violated, which pretty much includes everyone except for people who commit suicide, sacrifice their lives for others, or are experiencing unendurable suffering.

So after this guy kills his first innocent child why doesn’t god decide to bring his life to an end? Even if god wanted to give the guy the chance to repent and seek forgiveness for his sins, why didn’t god give him a heart attack after the second innocent victim or the third? Why would a loving and caring god allow this maniac to kill a dozen little children and end up dying peacefully in his sleep in his late 80’s?


It obviously has nothing to do with god being helpless to intervene because of the killer’s free will.

God set up the death sentence for Adam and Eve. Now let's be honest. It's obvious that those believing that evolution is why things are alive on the earth also believe we die because that's the way it is. But Adam & Eve's son Cain killed Abel. Right away. The first children, one killed the other. God warned Cain, but Cain didn't listen.