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‘Jesus was WITH GOD’ therefore Jesus WAS GOD?

Hermit Philosopher

Selflessly here for you
Sorry, I do not believe in a trinity and the rest is irrelevant.

What I believe is that Jesus was a man born holy and sinless and was endowed with the spirit of God (often called, ‘[the] Holy Spirit’, Chosen by God as a true servant as per Isaiah 42:1 and Acts 10:37-38.

This Jesus [Christ] is the replacement for the first created man, Adam (as per the reference: ‘The last Adam’, ‘Last’ because no other sinless man (an ADAM) would ever be created.

God created a physical world to be occupied by physical entities and ruled over by a physical IMAGE of Himself. If Jesus is God then that point is perfectly pointless since if Jesus is God, Jesus is ALREADY RULER over the FAR greater kingdom of Heaven - a kingdom not restrained by physical laws like the physical world. Also, for Jesus (as God) to become ruler (See Temptation by Satan in the wilderness) over the whole world he would effectively be DEMOTING HIMSELF.

But how can God DEMOTE himself from being GOD? How can one PART (person) of God be different from the other two as Trinitarians confusingly claim? Afterall, GOD is IMMUTABLE!!! And what does ‘Immutable’ mean?

To try to claim God as immutable yet one person of the trinity God goes through MANY CHANGES including BEING DEAD and having to be resurrected again by ‘GOD’?! Trinitarians claim that Jesus had TWO IDENTITIES… which itself is a disjointed claim since it still doesn’t show how ONE PART OF GOD could be flesh and yet DID NOT CHANGE!

But NEITHER the Father nor the Spirit of God ever changes - they are both unchanging - and why? Because the spirit of God is just that - an ATTRIBUTE of God - of the Father. The Father never changes therefore His Spirit never changes . Indeed, if God ever changed it would mean that God was not fully ALMIGHTY yet we declare Him to be so!

Jesus, on the other hand, was born, was taught, grew, aged, was obedient to parents and laws of men but not diverting the laws of God, though he was, until called into service BY GOD, was never TESTED to subvert them - testimony of which is shown when, after returning from the temptation in the wilderness, (or was it before he was anointed?? I’ll check in that!) he declared in the synagogue that the ‘Year of the Lord’ had been realised ‘IN HIM’. The people hearing him were astonished because they had known him as just a humble compliant child/man who was a carpenter in the household of, son of, the man, Joseph.

Now, regarding Jesus task that GOD SENT HIM TO DO (How did God send him if he WAS GOD?). The ‘Sending’ was AFTER Jesus was anointed BY GOD. Trinitarians translators inserted the words ‘from Heaven’ into the scriptures wherein Jesus said:
  • ‘No one has ever ascended into Heaven who didn’t first descend [FROM HEAVEN]’
Jesus, here, means that in order to enter Heaven a man must FIRST DIE… like he told Nicodemus that to see Heaven a man must first be REBORN… and that for a seed to grid if must FIRST DIE… if these analogies don’t wash then the issue is between the unbeliever, and Jesus Christ who spoke it and the spirit of God (the Spirit of Truth) that enables it.

And witness that Jesus never says that he is going BACK to the Father. He only ever says that he is ‘Going TO the Father’… ‘Going TO HIS GOD’.

So Jesus lives for a few years delivering the TESTIMONY OF the FATHER… then dies to save mankind from the eternal death brought by the first Adam. This eternal death had meant that all mankind, regardless of their adherence to the laws of God, were destined to eternal death in the spirit - total annihilation! God had spoken that in order to waylay this eternal death a sinless man, like the yearly sacrifice of a pure and meek lamb, should be slaughtered. Unless this was fulfilled no salvation was possible:
  • ‘For by one sinful man sin came unto the world - and thus eternal death to all… so also salvation from eternal death must come by the sacrifice of one sinless man‘ (paraphrased)
And so, the reward for this selfless act is that such a sinless man should take the place of the sinful man (Adam) in becoming RULER over ALL CREATED THINGS; to be the greatest love of the Father; the most beloved of God… the ‘FIRSTBORN’ of the Father.

  • This ‘Firstborn’ is not to be confused with ‘FIRST BORN’, which is a chronological term. The ‘Firstborn’ is a term used to denote the first in line of the love of the Father. This does not have to mean the first male born from the womb. Scriptures tells of firstborn who were not first born in many of the children of the Israelites and even before and after:
  • Cain: Abel / Seth
  • Ishmael: Isaac
  • Esau: Jacob
  • … : Joseph
  • … : David
  • … : Solomon
and:
  • Adam: Jesus
————————————

So, now you know!
Pardon, I don’t think I follow. Did you per chance accidentally respond to someone else’s comment here?

I’m the one you asked for an elaboration from, on why I believe it not quite right to say that Jesus is God.

Humbly,
Hermit
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Pardon, I don’t think I follow. Did you per chance accidentally respond to someone else’s comment here?

I’m the one you asked for an elaboration from, on why I believe it not quite right to say that Jesus is God.

Humbly,
Hermit
Oh, sorry, I thought you asked me what I believe and where I was schooled [in scriptures], what age I was, etc.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
This should be a very short debate:
  • If Jesus was ‘WITH God’ how could he ‘BE GOD’?
  • Who is ‘GOD’ that Jesus was ‘WITH’?
It's poetic language, not intended to be taken so literally.

That whole section is about what the Greeks referred to as the "logos". Which can best be described as the divine ideological blueprint upon which the material universe is structured. And the meaning of this verse in this section is that Jesus comports and represents that divine logos. That he is the human embodiment of it. Not God, but of God.

Keep in mind also that in those days, the son of a family patriarch was considered a legally binding proxy for his father. To make an agreement with the son was the same as to make that agreement with his father, the patriarch, and head of the family clan. So when Jesus was being referred to as the "son of God", the people of that time would have all understood that to mean that Jesus' words, deeds, and teaching carried the same authority as God's words, deeds, and teaching. It's why the high priests at the time accused him of blasphemy. They didn't think he was claiming to BE God. No one did. But they certainly thought he was claiming to be God's proxy on Earth. And that they could not abide. And that is what Christians believe to this day.
 

Zwing

Active Member
…if God is three persons in one being then that is possible
The question begged is “what is meant by a ‘person’?” Are we to think that God is besieged by split-personality disorder? If by “person” one means “individual being”, then the concept of the Trinity is impossible.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
It's poetic language, not intended to be taken so literally.

That whole section is about what the Greeks referred to as the "logos". Which can best be described as the divine ideological blueprint upon which the material universe is structured. And the meaning of this verse in this section is that Jesus comports and represents that divine logos. That he is the human embodiment of it. Not God, but of God.

Keep in mind also that in those days, the son of a family patriarch was considered a legally binding proxy for his father. To make an agreement with the son was the same as to make that agreement with his father, the patriarch, and head of the family clan. So when Jesus was being referred to as the "son of God", the people of that time would have all understood that to mean that Jesus' words, deeds, and teaching carried the same authority as God's words, deeds, and teaching. It's why the high priests at the time accused him of blasphemy. They didn't think he was claiming to BE God. No one did. But they certainly thought he was claiming to be God's proxy on Earth. And that they could not abide. And that is what Christians believe to this day.
Well, since Jesus was taught BY GOD, his spiritual Father, I would expect that Jesus’ teaching. and deeds carried the full authority of God. I mean, even Jesus, himself, said:
  • ‘I can only do what I first see the Father do’
  • ‘The things I say are not my words but those of [God, the Father] who sent me’
Jesus did not claim that he was God, but rather, he claimed to be doing what God commanded, taught, and authorised him to do.

This last is exactly what constitutes ‘a sin’:
  • ‘He who does exactly what his Father commands him to do’
Adam, in the time before he sinned, was Son of God (Luke 3:38). He followed every command of God up until Eve seduced him (though Adam should have resisted nonetheless!).

Adam: sinless and holy Son of God… sinned… replaced by another sinless and holy man, Jesus [Christ].

The main problem with the Jews was that they were expecting a warrior Messiah. They wanted rid the Romans but when Jesus announced himself to be the true Messiah it incensed them and that us why they chose Barabbas when they got the chance.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
No, you misunderstood what I was asking for. But that’s okay. No problem.

Humbly,
Hermit
Is this what you asked me:
  • “May I first ask what age you are roughly,
    which country you grew up in, and what line of work you are in or what your schooling is? Just to give me an idea of which concepts to use regarding The Trinity.”
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
if you cannot understand figurative language as well as metaphoric speech then you are doomed

1) Of course I can understand that
2) If your guy was not speaking truly-true when he said he was ( "Amen-Amen" ) then I have no reason to take what he says as literal word-for-word truth. Not to mention you have proclaimed that your guy is not Jewish. So I have ZERO scriptural obligation to listen to what he has to say.
3) No one was there to witness the little convo between the samaritan woman and Jesus. This isnt something that was preached to a crowd, where there are multiple witnesses to confirm what was said.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
if you cannot understand figurative language as well as metaphoric speech then you are doomed

So, any and all claims coming from you about "God's own arm" in 22 point bold red text in the future will be considered hypocrisy.

One of your favorite talking points.... bah-bye. You can imagine a fleshy-god all you want. But you can't use the Hebrew bible to support that anymore. You shot yourself in the foot with this comment.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
@dybmh, @Soapy and all the rest.
What do it means "JESUS" was with God. answer in the "ECHAD" as First and Last, or as Father and Son. Supportive scripture,
Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."
this verse reveals all ... "I" is a single person. ..... "ONE" person only. so how can God be a Father and a Son at the same time if only "ONE" person? answer, "SHARING" as an ECHD of ONE PERSON, not separate, nor divided, but EQUALLY Shared in Spirit. and this "Sharing of oneself is done in "TIME", "PLACE", "ORDER", and "RANK".

all of this can be found in Genesis 1:1

101G
 

101G

Well-Known Member
So, any and all claims coming from you about "God's own arm" in 22 point bold red text in the future will be considered hypocrisy.

One of your favorite talking points.... bah-bye. You can imagine a fleshy-god all you want. But you can't use the Hebrew bible to support that anymore. You shot yourself in the foot with this comment.
are you sure. Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones."

care to unpack it...... *smile). remember this is your bible prophet.

101G.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
are you sure. Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones."

care to unpack it...... *smile). remember this is your bible prophet.

101G.

It's not a literal hand, it's not a literal sword. But its not hyperbole, it's not an exaggeration.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
It's not a literal hand, it's not a literal sword. But its not hyperbole, it's not an exaggeration.
LOL, LOL, LOL, no it's prophecy. remember this is God speaking.. 101G want you to examine the term Fellow here in the verse, it'd the Hebrew term
H5997 עָמִית `amiyth (aw-meeth') n-m.
1. companionship.
2. (hence, concretely) a comrade or kindred man.
[from a primitive root meaning to associate]
KJV: another, fellow, neighbour.

and it was fulfilled in Matthew 26:31 "Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad."

and the Lord JESUS is the Sword. and the Hand is God hand of Force to do his will. .... (smile) NOW, LET'S SEE GOD SWORD, AND HAND

Deuteronomy 32:39 "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand." Deuteronomy 32:40 "For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever." Deuteronomy 32:41 "If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me."

now, can you unpack the verse?

101G.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
LOL, LOL, LOL, no it's prophecy. remember this is God speaking.. 101G want you to examine the term Fellow here in the verse, it'd the Hebrew term

Nope, wrong again. It's a vision.

H5997 עָמִית `amiyth (aw-meeth') n-m.
1. companionship.
2. (hence, concretely) a comrade or kindred man.
[from a primitive root meaning to associate]
KJV: another, fellow, neighbour.

and it was fulfilled in Matthew 26:31 "Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad."

and the Lord JESUS is the Sword. and the Hand is God hand of Force to do his will. .... (smile) NOW, LET'S SEE GOD SWORD, AND HAND

Your hypocrisy is showing.

Deuteronomy 32:39 "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand." Deuteronomy 32:40 "For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever." Deuteronomy 32:41 "If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me."

now, can you unpack the verse?

101G.

The Jewish people are heading into the conquest to annihilate the 7 completely unholy nations. If it's read literally it is under-estimating what will actually happen. That means it is not hyperbole which is gross exaggeration.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@dybmh, @Soapy and all the rest.
What do it means "JESUS" was with God. answer in the "ECHAD" as First and Last, or as Father and Son. Supportive scripture,
Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."
this verse reveals all ... "I" is a single person. ..... "ONE" person only. so how can God be a Father and a Son at the same time if only "ONE" person? answer, "SHARING" as an ECHD of ONE PERSON, not separate, nor divided, but EQUALLY Shared in Spirit. and this "Sharing of oneself is done in "TIME", "PLACE", "ORDER", and "RANK".

all of this can be found in Genesis 1:1

101G

^^ Definition of ONE-TRICK PONY
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Nope, wrong again. It's a vision.



Your hypocrisy is showing.



The Jewish people are heading into the conquest to annihilate the 7 completely unholy nations. If it's read literally it is under-estimating what will actually happen. That means it is not hyperbole which is gross exaggeration.
lol, lol, lol, so, we can take it as you cannot understand Zechariah 13:7 ... thought so.... NEXT.

I have never see such IGNORANCE in one place.

101G.
 
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