“He is before all things” (Col 1:17) What does this mean about Jesus Christ?

[Soapy]

Colossians 1:17 describes Jesus Christ as being ‘Before all things’. But what does this mean, exactly?

Many believe that this is a reference to a pre-existent ‘Jesus’, but is it? I see nothing to indicate any such theory.

To me, the verse is saying that Jesus is GREATER than all things that have been created - specifically, all humanity!

Remember that the word, ‘Before’ also means ‘Ahead of’, ‘In front’, ‘Outstanding’. The writer of this verse, Paul, certainly had no ambition to claim a pre-existent ‘Jesus’. Paul only came to Christ Jesus king after Jesus had died, resurrected, and raised up to Heaven BY GOD. So how could he be preaching about a pre-existence in ‘Jesus’ that he would have had no idea about?

No! Paul is saying that Jesus Christ is GREATER than all things that have ever been in existence. In fact, other verses in this seemingly poetic set of verses (Col 1:15-18) point to Jesus being head of all things, the primary person reborn from the dead, the owner of all things that GOD, his Father, created:

• ‘All things were created FOR HIM’

This necessities that someone else created all things FOR THE PASSING ONTO THE SON. But, for the sake of a trinitarian ideology, words were added like, ‘In him’, and ‘Through him’ … were all things created.

But back to ‘Before’… When the Jews asked Jesus Christ if he was GREATER THAN … (remember : ‘BEFORE’!!) the greatest patriarch, Abraham, Jesus replied that he WAS INDEED BEFORE ABRAHAM….!!!

I see no indication that Jesus was saying that he was ‘pre-existent’ to Abraham. In fact, that would make no sense at all. Abraham is human, why would a pre-existent person (whom trinity falsely declares WAS ALMIGHTY GOD) say he was existing before the man, Abraham… should we imagine that somehow a man could have existed BEFORE GOD?

No! Jesus replied that even Abraham FORESAW his day… a future offspring from the loins of Abraham. And Abraham was glad to know that his offspring would be the great Messiah.

Yes, even Abraham knew that the one to come would be BEFORE him - Great as Abraham was so even GOD called him ‘Friend’, the one to come would be GREATER than he…!

And also look to John the Baptist: What did he say about the COMING MESSIAH:

• ‘The one to come is BEFORE me…’ (paraphrased)

Yes, again, BEFORE means ‘GREATER THAN’. John was a great man, he was foretold in scriptures: ‘One crying in the wilderness…!’
John’s warnings were that the Messiah was destined to arrive… and the Messiah was SO GREAT that not even loosening the ties on the Messiah’s Sandels was he worthy of… The Messiah was AHEAD OF HIM IN GREATNESS.

So, what do you say?

 

[dybmh]

please quote the verse in context, ideally in greek and english?

 

[Soapy]

please quote the verse in context, ideally in greek and english?

Why?

 

[dybmh]

Why?

Asking the question indicates this thread is a waste of time for me. Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[Soapy]

Asking the question indicates this thread is a waste of time for me. Welcome to my ignore list.

Ah, fear…. But you know what? No one forces anyone to respond to any thread questions.

Why do you declare you are refusing to answer when no one was making you answer… duh!!

 

[Eli G]

Colossians 1:17 describes Jesus Christ as being ‘Before all things’. But what does this mean, exactly?

Many believe that this is a reference to a pre-existent ‘Jesus’, but is it? I see nothing to indicate any such theory.

To me, the verse is saying that Jesus is GREATER than all things that have been created - specifically, all humanity!

Remember that the word, ‘Before’ also means ‘Ahead of’, ‘In front’, ‘Outstanding’. The writer of this verse, Paul, certainly had no ambition to claim a pre-existent ‘Jesus’. Paul only came to Christ Jesus king after Jesus had died, resurrected, and raised up to Heaven BY GOD. So how could he be preaching about a pre-existence in ‘Jesus’ that he would have had no idea about?

No! Paul is saying that Jesus Christ is GREATER than all things that have ever been in existence. In fact, other verses in this seemingly poetic set of verses (Col 1:15-18) point to Jesus being head of all things, the primary person reborn from the dead, the owner of all things that GOD, his Father, created:
...

The Greek preposition πρὸ does not mean GREATER as you say.
You are changing the meaning of the preposition before when talking about time.

It could mean also in front of or ahead of, practically the same when talking about place.

Very few times it can be used to express some priority with abstract concepts like here:

James 5:12 "Above all, (...) stop swearing ..."
1 Pet. 4:8 "Above all things, have intense love for one another ..."

... but it is not used that way about persons. There is another Greek preposition used in the Bible to express that idea: ἐπάνω, like in this case:

John 3:31 The one who comes from above is over all others. The one who is from the earth is from the earth and speaks of things of the earth. The one who comes from heaven is over all others.

There is another way of saying a similar idea using the comparative μείζων, like here:

John 13:16 Most truly I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.

 

[dybmh]

The Greek preposition πρὸ does not mean GREATER as you say.
You are changing the meaning of the preposition before when talking about time.

It could mean also in front of or ahead of, practically the same when talking about place.

Very few times it can be used to express some priority with abstract concepts like here:

James 5:12 "Above all, (...) stop swearing ..."
1 Pet. 4:8 "Above all things, have intense love for one another ..."

... but it is not used that way about persons. There is another Greek preposition used in the Bible to express that idea: ἐπάνω, like in this case:

John 3:31 The one who comes from above is over all others. The one who is from the earth is from the earth and speaks of things of the earth. The one who comes from heaven is over all others.

There is another way of saying a similar idea using the comparative μείζων, like here:

John 13:16 Most truly I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.

Thank you, sincerely.

 

[Eli G]

There is another way of saying the same, using the Greek preposition ὑπὲρ like in Luke 6:40:

"A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly instructed will be like his teacher."
________________________________________
As can be seen, there are many ways to express the idea that someone is above or greater than someone else... But the Greek preposition πρὸ is not used for that, so when the Bible says that Jesus is πρὸ all things (Col. 1:17), it means that he existed before them.

Priority in time can also be expressed

... with πρὶν like when Jesus said that he existed πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι (before Abraham came into existence). In fact, when Jesus said that Abraham "rejoiced greatly at the prospect of seeing [his] day, and he saw it and rejoiced" (John 8:56) he is mentioning something that he witnessed himself, and he is telling the Pharisees so that they would understand that he already existed when Abraham was alive ... and the dialog with them continues after that.

... and with ἔμπροσθέν like when John says that Jesus was ἔμπροσθέν him (John 1:15,30) ... he is saying that Jesus existed before him. Actually, Jesus was born 6 months after John, but he existed a long time before before in heavens. Jesus was ahead of John, predated him for a very long time.

 

[Soapy]

The Greek preposition πρὸ does not mean GREATER as you say.
You are changing the meaning of the preposition before when talking about time.

It could mean also in front of or ahead of, practically the same when talking about place.

Very few times it can be used to express some priority with abstract concepts like here:

James 5:12 "Above all, (...) stop swearing ..."
1 Pet. 4:8 "Above all things, have intense love for one another ..."

... but it is not used that way about persons. There is another Greek preposition used in the Bible to express that idea: ἐπάνω, like in this case:

John 3:31 The one who comes from above is over all others. The one who is from the earth is from the earth and speaks of things of the earth. The one who comes from heaven is over all others.

There is another way of saying a similar idea using the comparative μείζων, like here:

John 13:16 Most truly I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.

I hear what you say but find no proper relationship to to the thread question.

Try setting out a meaning of what you think it means that Jesus is ‘BEFORE’ all things in context of St Paul… Paul, who nothing about the birth of Jesus nor had any precepts about such a paganistic ‘Pre-existing GOD’ called ‘Jesus’!

There is no context for ‘Before all things’ so as to mean ‘was pre-existent to all things’…. Indeed you would have to ADD ‘before’ to make it work: ‘Pre-existent BEFORE all [OTHER] THINGS’.

The verse is simply saying that Jesus IN HEAVEN …. Is GREATER than all things BECAUSS GID HAS ASSIGNED HIM SUCH THAT POSITION:

• ‘I will make him the greatest of all the kings of the world’!!

He is the greatest of all things in the world: He is BEFORE ALL THINGS!

 

[Eli G]

After Paul said Jesus is "before all things" (Col. 1:17) he said:

Col. 1:18 (...) so that he might become the one who is first in all things

ἵνα γένηται __ so that might become
ἐν πᾶσιν __ in all things
πρωτεύων αὐτὸς __ the one who is first, he

FIRST as in: first (πρῶτος ), second, third, ... not first as greatest . That means first in a line, first place in order, first created:

Col. 1:18 (...) He is the beginning (...)

THE BEGINNING like being the very start point at the beginning of the Universe (John 1:1-3; Prov. 8:22-31), not like greatest.

Obviously, Jesus is GREATEST that everything else (Phil. 2:9; John 3:31) (but Jehovah) (1 Cor. 15:27,28)... but that is not what Paul meant with "before all things" in Col. 1:17.

You cannot change the meaning of words to fit a wrong idea you have. You have to be willing to adjust your misconceptions to Biblical truths as told. And you know what that means, because you can see the same attitude in others who have other wrong beliefs.

 

[Soapy]

After Paul said Jesus is "before all things" (Col. 1:17) he said:

Col. 1:18 (...) so that he might become the one who is first in all things

ἵνα γένηται __ so that might become
ἐν πᾶσιν __ in all things
πρωτεύων αὐτὸς __ the one who is first, he

FIRST as in: first (πρῶτος ), second, third, ... not first as greatest . That means first in a line, first place in order, first created:

Col. 1:18 (...) He is the beginning (...)

THE BEGINNING like being the very start point at the beginning of the Universe (John 1:1-3; Prov. 8:22-31), not like greatest.

Obviously, Jesus is GREATEST that everything else (Phil. 2:9; John 3:31) (but Jehovah) (1 Cor. 15:27,28)... but that is not what Paul meant with "before all things" in Col. 1:17.

You cannot change the meaning of words to fit a wrong idea you have. You have to be willing to adjust your misconceptions to Biblical truths as told. And you know what that means, because you can see the same attitude in others who have other wrong beliefs.

Paul is talking a now and future about Jesus Christ. He says that Jesus Christ is the first to be reborn from the dead so that he is the first fruit of them who are resurrected from the dead. That has nothing to do with a pre-existence.

Jesus is the greatest - the head - the prominent one - his ahead of all - the ‘the head’ of all things. Paul is no way talking of a pre-existence greatness in any way. It is simply the desire because of the fallacy trinity ideology that forces the mind of a trinitarian to put such a slew on the scriptures.

I write these things so you are not misled by false ideology but if you persist in believing the false trinity doctrine then it is you who will have to confess before Jesus Christ.

Jesus BECAME Christ… He BECAME Son of God … He died and was resurrected - and being so was MADE TO BE PREMIERE IN HEAVEN below GOD ALMIGHTY.

 

[Eli G]

...
I write these things so you are not misled by false ideology but if you persist in believing the false trinity doctrine then it is you who will have to confess before Jesus Christ.
...

If you think I'm Trinitarian, you haven't been reading anything I've responded to in your topic.

Accepting that Jesus was in heaven as a spiritual Son of God before he was born as a human, in no way means that he had no origin.

Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation

John 6:57 (...) I live because of the Father (...)

 

[Soapy]

If you think I'm Trinitarian, you haven't been reading anything I've responded to in your topic.

Accepting that Jesus was in heaven as a spiritual Son of God before he was born as a human, in no way means that he had no origin.

Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation

John 6:57 (...) I live because of the Father (...)

How are so many people misled… Even simple English is beyond the real.

Jesus is THE MOST LOVED (Firstborn) OF ALL THAT GOD CREATED…

‘Firstborn’ does not mean ‘FIRST BORN’!!! Those are totally different words and terms…!!!

How is no one understands what ‘Firstborn of the Father’ means…..??? It does not mean ‘The one born first’…. That would be ‘First Born of the Father’.

Take a look:

• ‘Israel is my firstborn [nation]’

‘Israel’ is not the FIRST CREATED nation on earth… There were many nations before and after the nation of Israel - Abraham was taken out of an existing nation which worshipped pagan Gods. What the saying means is that, of all the nations in the world, GOD LOVED ISRAEL MORE THAN ANY OTHER.

And so it is with Isaac: God loved Isaac more than Ishmael. But Isaac was not FIRST BORN of Abraham:

• Ishmael was FIRST BORN of Abraham
• But Isaac was FIRSTBORN of Abraham

The first is CHRONOLOGICAL IN LINE OF BIRTH FROM THE WOMB.

The second is MOST LOVED OF THE FATHER.

Because of our sloppy English language we can easily present the different words as the same one word or capitalised or not and rely on CONTEXT to differentiate the meanings… Like Lord and LORD, and ‘No body’ and ‘Nobody’ … some of the time it is purely someone losing an dispute that drives them to put the wrong context to try to win a point.

I mean, really, why is not understood that David was the most beloved of Jesse - and that is ‘Firstborn Son of Jesse’ or obvious that ‘Joseph is firstborn Son of Jacob… And that it is obvious that neither were BORN FIRST from their Father!!

And this is the context of ‘Jesus is FIRSTBORN of creation’. It is obvious that the context is not about CHRONOLOGICAL BIRTH… and even more so when it is known and believed that Jesus was not BORN FIRST (didn’t I do a topic about this and everyone said rightly that ‘Jesus was never born’??)

 

[Eli G]

There were millions of sons of God in heaven when He created the earth:

Job 38:4 Where were you when I founded the earth?
Tell me, if you think you understand.
5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 Into what were its pedestals sunk,
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?

It does not seem reasonable to me that God has not already had a favorite among them.

Actually, about the same time we read:

Prov. 30:4 Who has ascended to heaven and then descended?
Who has gathered the wind in the palms of both hands?
Who has wrapped up the waters in his garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name and the name of his son—if you know?

 

[amazing grace]

How are so many people misled… Even simple English is beyond the real.

And this is the context of ‘Jesus is FIRSTBORN of creation’. It is obvious that the context is not about CHRONOLOGICAL BIRTH… and even more so when it is known and believed that Jesus was not BORN FIRST (didn’t I do a topic about this and everyone said rightly that ‘Jesus was never born’??)

The context of Colossians 1 is NOT talking aboutJesus Christ being the "firstborn of the Father" but the firstborn of all creation - being the beginning, the firstborn from the dead. Jesus is the firstborn of all created beings to be raised out from among the dead - the firstfruits of those raised from the dead (1 Cor. 15:20) as Jesus was indeed the first person ever to be raised from the dead in a new, Everlasting body.

 

[Eli G]

The context of Colossians 1 is NOT talking aboutJesus Christ being the "firstborn of the Father" but the firstborn of all creation - being the beginning, the firstborn from the dead. Jesus is the firstborn of all created beings to be raised out from among the dead - the firstfruits of those raised from the dead (1 Cor. 15:20) as Jesus was indeed the first person ever to be raised from the dead in a new, Everlasting body.

Good point.

When someone uses this form of expression: Q is the firstborn of X ... that means that Q is part of the set X; it is one of the members that make up the set X. So, since Jesus is "the Firstborn of all creation" (Col. 1:15) he is one of all the things which were created.

Besides, the Greek word πρωτότοκος iis composed of two parts: πρῶτος (first) and τίκτω (to beget).

FIRST may be metaphorical... since we know that even if anyone is not the oldest one among some brothers, he could be the preferred one, but TO BEGET is necessarily an indication of ORIGIN. So, the word firstborn in Greek (πρωτότοκος) shows us that Jesus had an origin ... and within the phrase πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως (firstborn of all creation) is an indication that his origin occurred during creation.

 

[amazing grace]

Good point.

When someone uses this form of expression: Q is the firstborn of X ... that means that Q is part of the set X; it is one of the members that make up the set X. So, since Jesus is "the Firstborn of all creation" (Col. 1:15) he is one of all the things which were created.

Besides, the Greek word πρωτότοκος iis composed of two parts: πρῶτος (first) and τίκτω (to beget).

FIRST may be metaphorical... since we know that even if anyone is not the oldest one among some brothers, he could be the preferred one, but TO BEGET is necessarily an indication of ORIGIN. So, the word firstborn in Greek (πρωτότοκος) shows us that Jesus had an origin ... and within the phrase πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως (firstborn of all creation) is an indication that his origin occurred during creation.

I agree that Jesus had an origin.

BUT the key point in understanding any scripture is CONTEXT and what is the context speaking of? Is it speaking of Jesus being the firstborn (begotten) of all creation; of all things created "in the beginning" or is it speaking in relation to the "firstborn from the dead" as stated in v18?
I believe it is in relation to v18.

 

[Soapy]

I agree that Jesus had an origin.

BUT the key point in understanding any scripture is CONTEXT and what is the context speaking of? Is it speaking of Jesus being the firstborn (begotten) of all creation; of all things created "in the beginning" or is it speaking in relation to the "firstborn from the dead" as stated in v18?
I believe it is in relation to v18.

All of the responders to this question are struggling trying to create a scenario that is false … or struggling with rationalising a false concept.

‘Firstborn of creation’… means ‘The most loved of creation’.

The context is not about chronological birth.

‘Firstborn…’ - the head of …. The most loved … the dearest one ….

Jesus Christ is the firstborn (most loved) of the Father’. Hence Jesus is called ‘Son of God’ and ‘Only Son of God’ because Jesus proved himself to be able to be sinless and follow the commands of God… even to his death like a pure sinless meek lamb.

‘Therefore God set him above his brethren’.

This irreverent idea that Jesus was somehow ‘pre-existent, or ‘born before the ages’ or whatever, must stop if you want to claim you are a disciple of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ did not teach that he was pre-existent, nor ‘born before the ages’ simply because he was not.

Anyone who tries to make such claims will struggle later on if they are called to give a synopsis of the life Jesus Christ from his beginning.

One obvious question and point would be ‘Was Jesus God’ because in the beginning there was only God.

The answer is naturally ‘No, Jesus was not God’.

So the next question is ‘If ye wasn’t God - and you agree that he wasn’t - then what was he … or how could he be since God was ALONE.

Trinity has had 2000+ years to create an answer and so far all they have done is created a confused answer!!

Now,,people here are saying that Jesus was God’s first creation….. where did Scriptures say that? ‘Firstborn’….? ‘Firstborn of all creation’… NO!!!!

The verse is translated BY TRINITARIANS who were trying to MAKE THE VERSE SEEM SO and failed if you are a true believer. The verse does not make sense which is why it is being questioned ….

‘Firstborn OF ALL creation’

‘Firstborn of all created beings’

Paul HAS NO IDEA ABOUT PRE-BORN Jesus. Paul is speaking about Jesus IN HEAVEN.
Read everything that Paul wrote and see that he never speaks of a pre- HUMAN Jesus.

Pails first encounter with Jesus was Jesus from Heaven. Paul was a zealot before this.

Paul is saying that Jesus Christ is the FIRST RAISED FROM the DEAD…. That Jesus is the highest of all mankind by being the first tasted from the dead… that Jesus Christ is therefore the HEAD of mankind … which he later says also that Jesus is the ‘Head of the body of the church’.

Yes, the head IS STILL A PART OF THE BODY… and the congregation is HUMAN and so also the head of the congregation is HUMAN.

And just in case anyone hasn’t joined the dots : It would mean to those tho whom I’m addressing this answer, that Jesus would have been the FIRST HUMAN…

And we know that that isn’t true because Adam was the first created human.

Do you see how the false idea finds problems - but the true idea brings rapid positive configurations.

Firstborn (most loved) - not first born (first from the womb)

The trinitarian translators chose to use ‘Firstborn’ instead of ‘First born’ because it aided their attempt to falsify scriptures. But you should be able to see from the context that ‘First born’ does not work - makes no sense as scriptures is speaking of Jesus Christ in Heaven.

Ask yourself: Is if confusing to have two works that, written slightly differently, makes such a difference????

‘Heaven’ and ‘heaven’ (or ‘heavens’)?
Do you know the difference? Do you care? Do you not understand?

Heavens is Sky, Celestial Space, the visible and non-visible universe.

Heaven … is the Spiritual realm… the ‘abode’ of God and angels…

God does not ‘abode’ in the heavens…

Do you ever wonder why there are two terms so similar: ‘Lord’ and ‘LORD’….?

And there are others… YES!! They are chosen so as to confuse the unwary and the ‘self proclaimed Intelligent!!!’.

You were warned of the Wheat and the Tares… they look the same growing but their seed are vastly different.

Context…. Is a tool for separating truth from lie - Wheat from Tares…

Be warned - Be wary - Seek the true word!!

 

[Colt]

Colossians 1:17 describes Jesus Christ as being ‘Before all things’. But what does this mean, exactly?

Many believe that this is a reference to a pre-existent ‘Jesus’, but is it? I see nothing to indicate any such theory.

To me, the verse is saying that Jesus is GREATER than all things that have been created - specifically, all humanity!

Remember that the word, ‘Before’ also means ‘Ahead of’, ‘In front’, ‘Outstanding’. The writer of this verse, Paul, certainly had no ambition to claim a pre-existent ‘Jesus’. Paul only came to Christ Jesus king after Jesus had died, resurrected, and raised up to Heaven BY GOD. So how could he be preaching about a pre-existence in ‘Jesus’ that he would have had no idea about?

No! Paul is saying that Jesus Christ is GREATER than all things that have ever been in existence. In fact, other verses in this seemingly poetic set of verses (Col 1:15-18) point to Jesus being head of all things, the primary person reborn from the dead, the owner of all things that GOD, his Father, created:

• ‘All things were created FOR HIM’

This necessities that someone else created all things FOR THE PASSING ONTO THE SON. But, for the sake of a trinitarian ideology, words were added like, ‘In him’, and ‘Through him’ … were all things created.

But back to ‘Before’… When the Jews asked Jesus Christ if he was GREATER THAN … (remember : ‘BEFORE’!!) the greatest patriarch, Abraham, Jesus replied that he WAS INDEED BEFORE ABRAHAM….!!!

I see no indication that Jesus was saying that he was ‘pre-existent’ to Abraham. In fact, that would make no sense at all. Abraham is human, why would a pre-existent person (whom trinity falsely declares WAS ALMIGHTY GOD) say he was existing before the man, Abraham… should we imagine that somehow a man could have existed BEFORE GOD?

No! Jesus replied that even Abraham FORESAW his day… a future offspring from the loins of Abraham. And Abraham was glad to know that his offspring would be the great Messiah.

Yes, even Abraham knew that the one to come would be BEFORE him - Great as Abraham was so even GOD called him ‘Friend’, the one to come would be GREATER than he…!

And also look to John the Baptist: What did he say about the COMING MESSIAH:

• ‘The one to come is BEFORE me…’ (paraphrased)

Yes, again, BEFORE means ‘GREATER THAN’. John was a great man, he was foretold in scriptures: ‘One crying in the wilderness…!’
John’s warnings were that the Messiah was destined to arrive… and the Messiah was SO GREAT that not even loosening the ties on the Messiah’s Sandels was he worthy of… The Messiah was AHEAD OF HIM IN GREATNESS.

So, what do you say?

He rightfully asked for context.

 

[Colt]

Colossians 1:17 describes Jesus Christ as being ‘Before all things’. But what does this mean, exactly?

Many believe that this is a reference to a pre-existent ‘Jesus’, but is it? I see nothing to indicate any such theory.

To me, the verse is saying that Jesus is GREATER than all things that have been created - specifically, all humanity!

Remember that the word, ‘Before’ also means ‘Ahead of’, ‘In front’, ‘Outstanding’. The writer of this verse, Paul, certainly had no ambition to claim a pre-existent ‘Jesus’. Paul only came to Christ Jesus king after Jesus had died, resurrected, and raised up to Heaven BY GOD. So how could he be preaching about a pre-existence in ‘Jesus’ that he would have had no idea about?

No! Paul is saying that Jesus Christ is GREATER than all things that have ever been in existence. In fact, other verses in this seemingly poetic set of verses (Col 1:15-18) point to Jesus being head of all things, the primary person reborn from the dead, the owner of all things that GOD, his Father, created:

• ‘All things were created FOR HIM’

This necessities that someone else created all things FOR THE PASSING ONTO THE SON. But, for the sake of a trinitarian ideology, words were added like, ‘In him’, and ‘Through him’ … were all things created.

But back to ‘Before’… When the Jews asked Jesus Christ if he was GREATER THAN … (remember : ‘BEFORE’!!) the greatest patriarch, Abraham, Jesus replied that he WAS INDEED BEFORE ABRAHAM….!!!

I see no indication that Jesus was saying that he was ‘pre-existent’ to Abraham. In fact, that would make no sense at all. Abraham is human, why would a pre-existent person (whom trinity falsely declares WAS ALMIGHTY GOD) say he was existing before the man, Abraham… should we imagine that somehow a man could have existed BEFORE GOD?

No! Jesus replied that even Abraham FORESAW his day… a future offspring from the loins of Abraham. And Abraham was glad to know that his offspring would be the great Messiah.

Yes, even Abraham knew that the one to come would be BEFORE him - Great as Abraham was so even GOD called him ‘Friend’, the one to come would be GREATER than he…!

And also look to John the Baptist: What did he say about the COMING MESSIAH:

• ‘The one to come is BEFORE me…’ (paraphrased)

Yes, again, BEFORE means ‘GREATER THAN’. John was a great man, he was foretold in scriptures: ‘One crying in the wilderness…!’
John’s warnings were that the Messiah was destined to arrive… and the Messiah was SO GREAT that not even loosening the ties on the Messiah’s Sandels was he worthy of… The Messiah was AHEAD OF HIM IN GREATNESS.

So, what do you say?

The Supremacy of the Son of God​

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the headof the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven,by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.