Colt
Well-Known Member
Paul never knew Jesus in the flesh! Jesus chose 12 other men, one betrayed him. Saul was a persecutor of Christian’s, then converted and brought his own personal religious ideas to the new religion about Jesus!
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
“He is before all things” (Col 1:17) What does this mean about Jesus Christ?
- Thread starter Soapy
- Start date
HDFortunes
New Member
Reading this verse in context with the previous verse does aid in our understanding of what Paul is presenting. Also, historical context may also give us some color on an already colorful scene. During this time frame of Paul writing this letter to a church he had potentially planted himself, a dilemma arose that he was correcting: Christs' divinity being denied within the church of Colossae because those outside the church influencing her. If we begin with verse 15, Paul makes his claim early on after his initial greeting and blessing intro: Christ is the visible revelation of the invisible God. Paul then begins to list in what ways this truth is true. 1. In Christ, all things were created by Him, through Him, in Him, 2. a. Christ was, is, and is to come in the same way that the invisible Uncreated Creator was, is, and is to come, b. Christ holds everything together like how we would understand the invisible Uncreated Creator too. Paul is emphasizing over and over the divinity of Christ, correcting an issue within the church of Colossae that denies His divine nature. Jesus Christ is fully God and fully human, He is infinity contained in the finite, a miracle beyond comprehension to the carnal man.
HDFortunes
New Member
But Paul knew Christ in revelation and in Spirit. Christ revelation to Saul changed him to Paul and Christ taught that if you see Christ then you have seen the Father and the Father sent the Spirit in the name of Christ.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Paul, at no time, was presenting a thought that Jesus was pre-born (pre-existent). If is the Bible translators who added verses out of context that makes it seem like there is a pre-existence.
The specific verse shows no indication of Jesus being ‘First born’… it is that Paul is saying that Jesus is the GREATEST HUMAN Being… God’s ‘FIRSTBORN’, which is a different MEANING to ‘FIRST BORN’ (first from the womb).
Paul is using the meaning that Jesus is THE MOST LOVED OF ALL CREATED BEINGS.
God is most proud that he has a human creation that MOST, in fact, ABSOLUTELY, is an IMAGE of Himself.
And for a human to be PERFECT image of the INVISIBLE GOD, he must be a creation or offspring of HUMANITY. There is no context at all about a PRE-EXISTENT creation.
Colt
Well-Known Member
“And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”
The anti preexistence people quote anything other than Jesus himself!
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
We do not quote the verse ‘verbatim’ because it is not true that Jesus spoke such a thing.
In that verse it makes out that “Jesus” had a pre-existent glory with The Father. Yet there ARE NO VERSES IN ANY TORAH, TANAHK (sorry for misspelling), or any Old Testament writing that claims a pre-existent PERSON WHO WAS WITH GOD in the beginning.
Please show this ‘evidence’ that you claim!
The verse you quoted is ‘saying’ (what it did actually say if Jesus had said it) is
- ‘Now glory me in thy presence with the glory that was AWAITING [me] from the beginning.”
- THE GLORY (Prize) WAS THERE IN THE BEGINNING for the athlete who wins the race
So Jesus Christ RIGHTLY glorifies himself along with the Father (Ha!!! The Father AND Jesus Christ… TWO - not THREE!!!) for the triumph.
Jesus has not died yet - but it is a certainty - he has conquered sin but there is still one step to go: The final for his mission GOD (please define ‘God’….!) sent him on - as is shown in prophesy by Isaiah 42:1:
- ‘Here is MY SERVANT
- MY BELOVED
- whom I HAVE CHOSEN.
- I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT ON HIM
- and he will bring glory to the nation’
(God chooses a SERVANT from among mankind.., He is made God’s beloved…God ANOINTS this servant with His SPIRIT. The servant, aided by the power of God (which is the Spirit of God) ‘goes around doing good’ - a greater preacher than John the Baptist, a healer of the sick, doing what was considered ‘impossible’ (the term: Miracle), a defier of stricture of the manmade law in regards to justice and truth.)
What say you also to Acts 10:37-38:
- “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached -
- how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power,
- and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil,
- because God was with him.” (Acts 10:37-38)
Please explain your view.
Last edited:
Colt
Well-Known Member
LoL! That’s what the doubting Jehovah Witnesses convinced you of! Gabriel came down from heaven to reveal that The Son of God was coming down.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I am not Jehovah Witness.
Why do you say I’m JW?
Are you perhaps trying to trap me by making that claim against me and then bringing all the JW falsities onto me.
“Gabriel came down from heaven to reveal that The Son of God was coming down.”
What does that mean?
Where has anyone said that in scriptures?
Colt
Well-Known Member
I just assumed you were JW since you also rework the words of Jesus to fit your doubts.
The Son of God sent Gabriel to reveal to Mary that his master was incarnating as a human, Jesus of Nazareth.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Jesus might have been ‘BORN AS THE SAVIOUR’, he STILL needs to ACT THE PART OF S SAVIOUR.
Can you understand that it is like a champion being sent to fight a hero.
The champion is said to a SURE WINNER… and all bets are on him. But he actually loses to the hero!
See, just because he was born as a champion, unless he actually WINS as a champion he is is a LOSER.
Yes, Jesus was BORN TO BE ‘ETHEREAL’ king of the Jews BUT HE HAS TO PROVE his position…. Which he does… and when he does THEN his legacy is final.
Did the giant who went out to fight with David feel assured that he would win… the philistines sure did!!! He was a championed before he fought his first battle… and so assured where the philistines that their ‘born to be champion’ was going to be a greater champion that the called him so before he fought David…
But, of course……. He LOST!
See, Jesus was hailed as king of the Jews BUT HE WON as king of the Jews…!!!!!
So his LEGACY is AFTER HE WON…
“Father, I have done all you asked me to do - now give me the prize that was awaiting the one who succeed in doing your will.” (Paraphrased)
The WINNER gets the prize…. The Glory goes to the one who succeeds / Jesus succeeded and was the winner WHEN he succeeded!!!
If he was ABSOLUTELY ASSURED OF WINNING (by man’s rules) then what purpose would there have been for any of the testing and tempting!!!!!?
Colt
Well-Known Member
The purpose of the Son of God coming to earth was to experience the full life of one of his own created humans while subject to the will of the Father in heaven. The “reward” was being given “all power and authority in heaven and on earth”. Christ Michael already had vast power as Creator Son.
Humans are so selfish that they speculated that the Son must have been created to be a blemish free human sacrifice to satisfy a fictitious sin debt that man was born with! Jesus never taught the atonement doctrine! He never used the word!
amazing grace
Active Member
And he took a cup and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you for this cup is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins . . . Matt. 26:28 This is atonement for sins and Jesus taught it. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Colt
Well-Known Member
Jesus never taught the atonement doctrine! He never used the word!
Luke 7
44And turning toward the woman, He said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? When I entered your house, you did not give Me water for My feet, but she wet My feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not greet Me with a kiss, but she has not stopped kissing My feet since I arrived. 46You did not anoint My head with oil, but she has anointed My feet with perfume. 47Therefore I tell you, because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”
48Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” <--------- NO blood had been shed! God has always been forgiving to the sincerely repentant person!
49But those at the table began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
50And Jesus told the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” <------------- confessing sin, faith in God and receiving forgiveness doesn't require Pagan sacrifices!
In this parable is the Father (landowner) pleased that his son was rejected? Was it the Fathers will that his son be killed?
Matthew 21:33-46 reads:
“Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower and he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit and the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first and they did likewise to them. Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?” They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.” Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes?’
“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it and whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them, but when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet.”
“Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower and he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit and the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first and they did likewise to them. Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?” They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.” Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes?’
“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it and whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them, but when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet.”
Israel was punished for rejecting the original Gospel of salvation! They were NOT supposed to reject Jesus who used the opportunity of the cross to show life after death!
Last edited:
amazing grace
Active Member
Jesus has the authority to forgive sins and he forgave her sin because of her love for him and her trust/faith in him.
Then why did Jesus shed his blood if not for the forgiveness of sins as he said?
True, we no longer have to sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin - Jesus paid the sacrifice once for all. As our high priest - He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. (Heb. 7:27) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. . . (Heb. 9:12)
No, the father was not pleased that his son and heir was rejected and killed.
The purpose of a parable is to teach a lesson and the lesson taught was that those who reject the Son and heir will pay the consequences.
Colt
Well-Known Member
When the Gospel of the Kingdom was rejected by those called to receive it the Father and Son decided that the Son would leave this world in the manner he chose. The cross proved life after death to the faithful, it also provided the full experience of the human life of the Creator Son. We have a God who was tested in ALL things while in the flesh. The atonement doctrine is an assault upon the free-will of God the Father, it says that the Father couldn't forgive until and unless he saw his Son die as some sort of substitute.
If the Israelites had accepted the pre-cross Gospel of the Kingdom, then they would be preaching it today from the 2nd Temple. That pre-cross Gospel was never "Christ and him crucified" for the sin of the world!
Last edited:
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
‘For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.’ (Hosea 6:6)
Sacrifices were made because a true atonement cannot be made by sinful man.
Jesus was able to act as one eternal sacrifice for the sins of all mankind - even those who had not sinned according to the law!!!!
Colt
Well-Known Member
Speculation and conjecture! Jesus never taught the atonement doctrine!
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
What is the atonement doctrine?
Colt
Well-Known Member
In Christian theology the reconciliation of God and human kind through Jesus Christ. It’s the theory that Jesus offered himself as a human sacrifice to pay once and for all the sin debt that mankind owed. Paul used the theory as a way to end blood sacrifices.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I thought that was what the whole of scriptures was mainly about…..
IT IS WHAT THE SCRIPTURES IS MAINLY ABOUT!!
- “Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.” (Romans 5:18”
The disposal of Sin and Death came from the ATONEMENT of one man, Jesus Christ, by HIS DEATH for all mankind.
The Old Testament showed his blood sacrifice (blood from an unblemished animal) did not satisfy God but was used as a reminder of the one true sacrifice of an unblemished man that they were awaiting. Jesus Christ performed that role with all the meekness of an innocent lamb. Hence, he did not sane his life when put in front of Pontius Pilate who desired Jesus to be released but could not because the people demanded another. Jesus could have said, ‘it is true that I am not committing sedition against Caesar and against Rome but instead pronounced and acknowledged the truth that he was ‘King of the Jews’ - which is, of course, a SPIRITUAL kingship which is not attached to an EARTHLY kingship. The Jews mistook Jesus’ words and wanted him dead… which played into the hands of God because this scriptures was fulfilled AS IT WAS PROPHESIED thousands of years before!!
Last edited: