“Let the states decide.”

[crossfire]

So, considering the above two posts, don't you think that it might be a good idea to put some restraints on the States?

 

[Kathryn]

And "perfect"...."getting there".

Hope springs eternal.

 

[Kathryn]

Here's the deal, @crossfire, with nearly every case you brought up - you're going to need to do better than bringing up drug addicts, sorry. As foir the Ohio case, it is not going to be prosecuted.

 

[Kenny]

“Let the states decide. (e.g. on abortion)” is often said by Republicans. Big government bad they say, so we should let the state governments as opposed to the federal government dictate many things of our lives.

To those who say that, why don’t you say “Let the counties decide.”? And if you say that, why don’t you say “Let the cities decide.”? And if you say that, why don’t you say “Let the individual decide.”?

Normally, I like to shoot spitballs at both sides of the aisle. But when conservatives say something along the lines of “big government bad therefore let states dictate everything” it makes me chuckle. That is all.

It is back to original intent of separation of powers. The title of United States was based upon the preservation of State rights. It isn’t called “United Counties”.

The original intent was small government because they already saw what concentration of power could do with Kings in power and centralized government.

 

[Kathryn]

Another cryptic response for me to puzzle out. Whose lives? The mother's? The fetus's? Sometimes the lives of women are put at risk to save a nonviable fetus simply because doctors are uncertain of the legality of treating a pregnant woman. I have no doubt that you want everyone to live, but there are so many ways that these laws can end up killing when they take choices away from pregnant women and medical professionals. I understand that you disapprove of the choices that most women seeking an abortion make. You've made that clear. But the only way you can achieve your goal seems to be by having the government force women to carry their pregnancies to term. By taking away their control over their bodies, once they find themselves in a condition of pregnancy. Even when the law carves out exceptions to abortion bans, doctors tend to be uncertain about the legality going ahead with an abortion, especially if some court might later decide that they made the wrong judgement. Better for them to err on the side of caution, but not for the pregnant woman.

Pregnancy is an unusual situation as I have stated over and over again. And I said OUR lives. Yours and mine to start with. You want your life to be protected, right? I want mine to be protected.

You know, my mom could have chosen to abort me, but she chose not to. Your mom could have chosen to abort you, but she chose not to. I want to be protected.

 

[Copernicus]

Pregnancy is an unusual situation as I have stated over and over again. And I said OUR lives. Yours and mine to start with. You want your life to be protected, right? I want mine to be protected.

Neither of us is a fetus inside a womb. It makes sense to protect the lives of independent living individuals. This does not mean that any level of government should be trying to force women to give birth to children that they are not prepared for and do not want.

You know, my mom could have chosen to abort me, but she chose not to. Your mom could have chosen to abort you, but she chose not to. I want to be protected.

We are not in danger from abortions. Neither of our mothers felt the need for an abortion. I did not exist for billions of years and will no longer exist after I die. You could just as well argue that women should be turned into baby factories because of all the people whose lives will never come into being because of their selfish refusal to give birth to as many people as possible. So the possibility that my mother would have chosen not to give birth to me should have been hers alone, not that of the federal or local governments. I'm sorry if this bothers you, but it is not really about you or me. When a woman gives birth to a new individual, that should be something she does when she is ready and willing to take care of that individual. And she should not be forced to risk her health involuntarily.

 

[Kathryn]

Neither of us is a fetus inside a womb. It makes sense to protect the lives of independent living individuals. This does not mean that any level of government should be trying to force women to give birth to children that they are not prepared for and do not want.

What about babies? What about disabled people who count on others to help them live?

 

[Kathryn]

We are not in danger from abortions. Neither of our mothers felt the need for an abortion. I did not exist for billions of years and will no longer exist after I die. You could just as well argue that women should be turned into baby factories because of all the people whose lives will never come into being because of their selfish refusal to give birth to as many people as possible. So the possibility that my mother would have chosen not to give birth to me should have been hers alone, not that of the federal or local governments. I'm sorry if this bothers you, but it is not really about you or me. When a woman gives birth to a new individual, that should be something she does when she is ready and willing to take care of that individual. And she should not be forced to risk her health involuntarily.

Good grief, you make it sound like every woman who gives birth is putting her life at risk. This is not the 19th century, it's the 21st century. Birth is a natural event, not an unnatural one. We are talking about the US by the way.

 

[fantome profane]

Good grief, you make it sound like every woman who gives birth is putting her life at risk. This is not the 19th century, it's the 21st century. Birth is a natural event, not an unnatural one. We are talking about the US by the way.

But the point is that you should get to evaluate the risk for yourself, no one else knows what the risk is to you or what risk you are willing to take. Certainly not a politician. You can evaluate that risk for yourself and for no one else, and no one else can evaluate it for you.

 

[Kathryn]

But the point is that you should get to evaluate the risk for yourself, no one else knows what the risk is to you or what risk you are willing to take. Certainly not a politician. You can evaluate that risk for yourself and for no one else, and no one else can evaluate it for you.

See what I mean about personhood?

 

[fantome profane]

See what I mean about personhood?

No, honestly I don't have any idea what you mean by personhood.

 

[Kathryn]

No, honestly I don't have any idea what you mean by personhood.

Others do, and that's fine.

 

[Copernicus]

Neither of us is a fetus inside a womb. It makes sense to protect the lives of independent living individuals. This does not mean that any level of government should be trying to force women to give birth to children that they are not prepared for and do not want.

What about babies? What about disabled people who count on others to help them live?

Babies and disabled people are part of living society. They can survive independently of their mothers. Fetuses cannot. Their lives are fully dependent on the mother whose body they are a part of. They have no property and no social identity beyond the imagination of those who interact with the pregnancy. We do not have real social interactions with fetuses, but we do with babies and disabled people. From birth, they are social beings.

...When a woman gives birth to a new individual, that should be something she does when she is ready and willing to take care of that individual. And she should not be forced to risk her health involuntarily.

Good grief, you make it sound like every woman who gives birth is putting her life at risk. This is not the 19th century, it's the 21st century. Birth is a natural event, not an unnatural one. We are talking about the US by the way.

We are talking about the US, because this is not about a philosophical definition of personhood. It is about a legal definition. You acknowledge that here, and I am glad that you do. It makes the discussion more rational. All pregnancies come with some risk to the health of the mother no matter what century they are in, and the US healthcare system makes pregnancies much riskier for women than in most other high-income countries. (See Maternal mortality in the United States: are the high and rising rates due to changes in obstetrical factors, maternal medical conditions, or maternal mortality surveillance?) However, I did not in any way imply that every woman is at grave risk. Some women may have health conditions that make pregnancies more risky. Should the woman not be the one to assess her own risks? Why have some government bureaucracy and the court system override her assessment?

No, honestly I don't have any idea what you mean by personhood.

Others do, and that's fine.

And others do not, as well. Like @fantome profane, I do not. And you don't even try to make it clear.

 

[Kathryn]

And others do not, as well. Like @fantome profane, I do not. And you don't even try to make it clear.

You've made it clear enough.

 

[Kathryn]

Babies and disabled people are part of living society. They can survive independently of their mothers. Fetuses cannot. Their lives are fully dependent on the mother whose body they are a part of. They have no property and no social identity beyond the imagination of those who interact with the pregnancy. We do not have real social interactions with fetuses, but we do with babies and disabled people. From birth, they are social beings.

Wow.

 

[fantome profane]

Wow.

What does "Wow" mean? Did you understand what @Copernicus said? I understand what he is saying, and he is absolutely correct.

 

[Copernicus]

What does "Wow" mean? Did you understand what @Copernicus said? I understand what he is saying, and he is absolutely correct.

Thanks. It is really hard to interpret Kathryn's terse comments sometimes, but I think she is trying to frame my position as one that disregards the life growing inside a womb as a nonperson. In fact, most parents view pregnancies as a growing person inside of the womb, and they do not want or need abortions. And women with pregnancies are given special protections, as well they should be. Women seeking an abortion tend to find themselves in exceptional circumstances--health threatened, financially or emotionally unable to care for a newborn, the victim of a crime, in a bad relationship, etc. So I am far from being "pro-abortion". I simply feel that my opinion should not count in how a woman deals with her reproductive options, especially if I have no relationship with the woman or stake in the outcome. I simply can't believe that it is an easy or casual decision for a woman to make.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Good grief, you make it sound like every woman who gives birth is putting her life at risk.

They are.

I generally don't focus on this because our right to bodily autonomy isn't contingent on risk, but it really is the case that every pregancy has the potential to kill the pregnant person.

This is not the 19th century, it's the 21st century. Birth is a natural event, not an unnatural one. We are talking about the US by the way.

Among developed countries, the US's maternal mortality rate is awful. As of 2021, the average maternal mortality rate was 33 fatalities per 100,000 live births.

Many groups have much higher average rates. The maternal mortality rate for black women over 40 is 301 deaths per 100,000 live births. And that's just the average. For people with risk factors for maternal mortality - factors besides just being black in the US - that risk could be several times higher.

Maternal Mortality Rates in the United States, 2021

National Center for Health Statistics

www.cdc.gov

As a point of comparison, car crashes in the US kill about 650 people for every 100,000 reported crashes. So depending on the pregnant person's demographics and risk factors, a pregnancy is in the same risk spectrum as a car crash.

 

[fantome profane]

Among developed countries, the US's maternal mortality rate is awful. As of 2021, the average maternal mortality rate was 33 fatalities per 100,000 live births.

Many groups have much higher average rates. The maternal mortality rate for black women over 40 is 301 deaths per 100,000 live births. And that's just the average. For people with risk factors for maternal mortality - factors besides just being black in the US - that risk could be several times higher.

Not only the risk of fatality to consider, there is also the detrimental impact to someone's health, which is more common, but harder to quantify.

 

[crossfire]

What about babies? What about disabled people who count on others to help them live?

Babies and disabled people are not literally physically attached to another person.