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“Let the states decide.”

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
What do you suppose about the logic.

Unborn baby does not have the right to live at the expense and risk of the mother is the logic. But then can one say that a born baby can still pose a risk and expense to a mother? Cuz if so, I gotta rethink the logic real quick

I try to be logically consistent. In all things. Thoughts?
Thankfully even though the African American maternal mortality rate is higher than the other ones, it's still not terrible or why most abortions even happen. Even though many abortions are done on African American women.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Thankfully even though the African American maternal mortality rate is higher than the other ones, it's still not terrible or why most abortions even happen. Even though many abortions are done on African American women.
What maternal mortality rate would you consider "terrible"?

And are there any issues where you think other should be able to decide for you what risk of death you should find acceptable?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
What do you suppose about the logic.

Unborn baby does not have the right to live at the expense and risk of the mother is the logic. But then can one say that a born baby can still pose a risk and expense to a mother? Cuz if so, I gotta rethink the logic real quick

I try to be logically consistent. In all things. Thoughts?
Well, I think the premises are faulty in the first place because we're talking about the natural mammalian reproductive cycle. It's not as if the baby is just some parasitic invader, it's her developing child. What are you are calling risks are really possible medical complications which could happen but aren't likely and you try to minimize those so you have a healthy pregnancy. It's not unlike trying to maintain your health in general, except now it's two people instead of one.

But that aside, I suppose you could say a born baby also poses some sort of "risk" and "expense" for the mother, like psychological risk (post-partum depression and post-partum psychosis, for example) and financial expense. But it depends on how you define risk and expense.
 

an anarchist

Your local loco.
Well, I think the premises are faulty in the first place because we're talking about the natural mammalian reproductive cycle. It's not as if the baby is just some parasitic invader, it's her developing child. What are you are calling risks are really possible medical complications which could happen but aren't likely and you try to minimize those so you have a healthy pregnancy. It's not unlike trying to maintain your health in general, except now it's two people instead of one.
Ayyyy that’s a novel way of looking at it. I’ll have to let that one cook in my noggin for a bit.
 

an anarchist

Your local loco.
I totally did not mean for this thread to be about abortion LOL (“death of the author” I suppose). I meant it to be about individualism. Abortion was just a prominent example I used.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ oh well lol
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
"Lubbock County, Texas, is now the fourth and largest county in the state to pass an anti-abortion ordinance that would bar pregnant Texans from traveling to access an out-of-state abortion.

Lubbock now joins three other Texas counties—Goliad, Mitchell and Cochran—that have passed similar anti-abortion travel ordinances.

Texas has one of the most restrictive abortion bans in the country, according to the Center for Reproductive Rights. Many Texans are forced to travel out of state—or even out of country—to access an abortion; it is estimated that Texans seeking an abortion have to travel an average of 240 miles each way to access care.

Abortion travel bans are enforced through private civil lawsuits filed against people who “knowingly transport any individual for the purpose of providing or obtaining an elective abortion, regardless of where the elective abortion will occur.” While the pregnant people themselves do not face legal liability, people who help them obtain an abortion could face a civil lawsuit for doing so. Anti-abortion activists have dubbed these ordinances anti-“abortion trafficking” laws.

These ordinances were drafted by ant-abortion extremist Mark Lee Dickson and former solicitor general of Texas Jonathan F. Mitchell, the architect of Texas’s “bounty hunter” abortion ban who recently demanded patient information from several Texas abortion funds. Attorney Lisa Needham has written that “Mitchell is much more than the man who helped make it legal for anti-choicers to moonlight as bounty hunters … If a culture war is going on, Mitchell is in the thick of it, representing people who used to be relegated to the legal fringes, but are now engaged in a concerted effort to move the law much further to the right.”

Dickson has also spent the last year lobbying for the passage of anti-abortion travel ordinances across the state. “Guys, I long for the day [when], coast to coast, abortion is considered a great moral, social and political wrong and is outlawed in every single state,” Dickson told the Lubbock commission.

On Tuesday, the Texas city of Amarillo, in Potter and Randall counties, held a long public hearing to consider a similar abortion travel ban that would apply to roads that lead to New Mexico and Colorado, abortion safe haven states that have seen a large uptick in patients from Texas over the past year. The Amarillo city council decided not to immediately vote on the ordinance. “These abortion trafficking ordinances really are the next stage in an abortion-free America,” said Dickson, who also made an appearance at the hearing."





"AMARILLO — The Amarillo City Council prolonged its debate over a so-called abortion travel ban on Tuesday, spending more than two hours in front of a packed room reviewing draft rules that would attempt to block access to Colorado and New Mexico, two states where a Texas woman could legally obtain an abortion.

The five-member council discussed three different drafts of the ordinance, with varying measures in each, and left the table without resolution. Abortion rights activists and legal scholars have sharply criticized the ordinances, calling the rules unconstitutional.

The meeting offered a rare window into how a local government wades into one of America's thorniest and most politically charged issues. The council — which includes no women — governs a city of more than 200,000 people and has bucked the trend of other smaller, rural cities and counties that passed similar ordinances with little debate.

The Amarillo council has now spent three different meetings grappling with whether to approve the rules that were first proposed by anti-abortion activists. The Panhandle city has been a hot spot for the debate, as Interstates 40 and 27 run through the city."


Yeah and you still don't seem to understand that applies to minors being trafficked across the border by adults who are not the parents' children's or Guardians without permission.

You seem to want yo twist this whole thing two ways to Sunday.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
And are there any issues where you think other should be able to decide for you what risk of death you should find acceptable?
Most abortions are not due to the mother's life being at risk.

This is from a very pro abortion site and even they admit that the main reasons for abortions are as follows:

  • Lack of finances
  • Timing
  • Emotional or social reasons
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I know.

You shrugged off those that do care about the risk on the grounds that the average maternal mortality is "not terrible," so what do you think would be a "terrible" risk? Why do you think you ought to be the one to decide this for others?
Thankfully not many women even mention the health of the mother or baby (fetus if you want to call it that) when mentioning why they are choosing abortion. So I do not see myself in that role.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
No I am not.

The fact that you're doing it thoughtlessly doesn't mean you're not doing it.

And I have already made an exception for the actual life of the mother. I believe that should be between the mother and doctor.

A meaningless, hypocritical "exception."

If the pregnant person survives, there's always the possibility that some anti-choice MD will appear as an expert witness at the trial to say under oath "well, *I* could have saved her, so the abortion was unnecessary."

The only real way to prove conclusively that a pregnant person needed an abortion to survive would be to not do the abortion and see that she died as a result.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
The fact that you're doing it thoughtlessly doesn't mean you're not doing it.



A meaningless, hypocritical "exception."

If the pregnant person survives, there's always the possibility that some anti-choice MD will appear as an expert witness at the trial to say under oath "well, *I* could have saved her, so the abortion was unnecessary."

The only real way to prove conclusively that a pregnant person needed an abortion to survive would be to not do the abortion and see that she died as a result.
The vast majority of women do not even mention their own health or the health of the baby.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Well, I think the premises are faulty in the first place because we're talking about the natural mammalian reproductive cycle. It's not as if the baby is just some parasitic invader, it's her developing child. What are you are calling risks are really possible medical complications which could happen but aren't likely and you try to minimize those so you have a healthy pregnancy. It's not unlike trying to maintain your health in general, except now it's two people instead of one.

But that aside, I suppose you could say a born baby also poses some sort of "risk" and "expense" for the mother, like psychological risk (post-partum depression and post-partum psychosis, for example) and financial expense. But it depends on how you define risk and expense.
Just FYI, a little bit about mammalian biology.

AI Overview
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Yes, some mammals can reabsorb a fetus or fetuses early in pregnancy, a process known as resorption:


  • Stress
    Mammals may reabsorb a fetus in response to stress from environmental conditions, disease, or food scarcity. For example, pregnant sharks and rays may experience "stress-induced parturition" if captured.


  • Social cues
    In rodents, females may abort or reabsorb fetuses if they encounter an unfamiliar male, a phenomenon known as the "Bruce effect".


  • Reproductive conflict
    In wild geladas, spontaneous abortions may increase if the dominant male in the group is replaced.


  • Normal development
    A high percentage of implantations are lost to spontaneous resorption during normal mammalian development. This is a major issue in assisted reproduction.

Resorption is a biochemical process that causes the fetus to decompose and deteriorate. The dam's body absorbs the fetus and placental tissue, and the puppy disappears from the uterus and litter.


Some animals that can undergo embryonic diapause include:
  • Certain rodents
  • Bears
  • Armadillos
  • Mustelids, such as badgers and weasels
  • Marsupials, such as kangaroos
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Yeah and you still don't seem to understand that applies to minors being trafficked across the border by adults who are not the parents' children's or Guardians without permission.

You seem to want yo twist this whole thing two ways to Sunday.
Another one of your fantasies, pretending to be family is not how minors who are sex trafficked are brought into the US. They are conned into offers of jobs in the US and then held after being secreted across the border, usually hidden in normal traffic.

That you might be able to find an exception of a mother who knowingly got someone to get her family across the border so she could sell her daughter is not impossible, but seriously, your unevidenced possible exception does not support your argument.
 
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