“The Son is equal to his Father”

[1213]

I believe He is greater and equal at the same time. ...

Why do you think so?

 

[milanij777]

I have been trying to research from the Christian Bible the idea that:

• ‘A son is equal to his Father’

I can, nowhere, find such a schema from Judaism or Christianity but it is relevant to a part of trinitarianism and other ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’ type of ideological beliefs, wherein it is claimed that:

1. ‘Jesus is equal to God because he is the Son of God’
2. ‘Jesus had the same nature as God so he, too, is God’
3. ‘Jesus received all things that the Father had therefore jesus is God’

These are a few of the reasonings I have heard but which carry no evidence from the scriptures... and it is from the scriptures that I seek the answer to:

• Where is this belief shown in the Old and New Testaments

I am asking:

• If the Son receives what he has from the Father, how is the son equal to the Father who gave him what he has?
• Jesus is given all power and authority BY the Father ... but only did a period of time - and even so, the ‘all things’ did not mean ‘absolutely all things’ because the Father’s “Seat of Power” was not part of the deal. This is illustrated by the stories of:

1. Joseph in Egypt given all power and authority to rule over Ha roads Kingdom ... for a period of time until the famine was over’ whence he ‘HANDED BACK POWER AND AUTHORITY TO’ Pharoah. And, Pharoah said to him, ‘EXCEPT FOR MY THRONE, you are to be Pharoah to my people’
2. Mordeciah in Persia (Book of Esther) in which King Xerxes handed over his Rulership to Mordeciah so that Mordeciah could save the Jews on the day of Purim where the Jews in that kingdom were edicted to be destroyed by the wicked Haman who tricked kings Xerxes.
3. Moses, also, was ‘GOD’ for a period of time under Pharoah. THE GOD, YAHWEH said to him that he was to be ‘God to Pharoah’ (read that as you may) and Moses even was given a high priest to mediate between himself and the people (there’s more to this than I’m saying but times and attention doesn’t warrant right now)

What these show is that even if a Father (or God) gives ‘ALL’ or designates another (obviously, a SON OF MAN) to ACT on his behalf, this still doesn’t make the trusted ‘Son’ EQUAL to the Father, to the God, who entrusted him.

Furthermore, what is it then when the Father has more than one Son - are they both (all) equal to each other ... I don’t think any scriptures credits that reasoning - does it?

Lastly, Adam, the first human, (until he sinned) is credited as being:

• ‘SON OF GOD’ (Luke 3:38)

How is it no one say that:

• ‘Adam was equal to God’

And we know the holy angels are:

• ‘Sons of God’

Why are they not said to:

• ‘Be equal to God because they are Sons of God’

And Jesus prays to the Father that the apostles should also become ‘Sons’ of God...

• ‘Equal to God’???

I’m searching for the reasoning behind ‘Son is equal to Father’ in Christianity or tradition of the Jews - or that it is a myth to substantiate a falsehood of trinitarianism.

Thank you for this question. I came across this forum because I have been trying to research the ancient Hebrew relationship between Father and son to reconcile this equality idea as well. I believe the father gave the son authority but they are not "equal". But that God is indeed above Yeshua and the Ruach hakodesh but this way of thinking is frowned upon in the Christian community yet there is not cultural, historical, biblical evidence that they are "equal" in the way that we see equality. I do not deny Yeshua's divinity, authority, and holiness but I still see God as the Most High. Thank you for question, I feel like you've answered it for yourself with all of the scripture you have quoted and questions you have asked that I think you already know the answer to.

 

[Soapy]

Thank you for this question. I came across this forum because I have been trying to research the ancient Hebrew relationship between Father and son to reconcile this equality idea as well. I believe the father gave the son authority but they are not "equal". But that God is indeed above Yeshua and the Ruach hakodesh but this way of thinking is frowned upon in the Christian community yet there is not cultural, historical, biblical evidence that they are "equal" in the way that we see equality. I do not deny Yeshua's divinity, authority, and holiness but I still see God as the Most High. Thank you for question, I feel like you've answered it for yourself with all of the scripture you have quoted and questions you have asked that I think you already know the answer to.

Thank God for leading you to this forum and picking out this question to answer to your desire for answers.

Can you lay out what you now think in your own words.

Bear in mind the definition of ‘Father’, and that if ‘Son’:

• Father: ‘He who creates, brings into being, gives life to…’
• Son: ‘He who does the works of the Father’

In thinking about the above definitions, do not confuse Son in Spirit (CREATED Being - Angel / Human) from God with Son in the Flesh (Human Child) from another Human Father (PRO-CREATED). Refer to Jesus stating that ‘God is my Father’ because he was ‘Doing the works of my Father’ in contrast to certain ones of the Jews who Jesus said were ‘Sons of the Devil’ because they were ‘Doing the works of [The Devil / Satan]’.

 

[Ajax]

I have been trying to research from the Christian Bible the idea that:

• ‘A son is equal to his Father’

Jesus and others give the answer a few times in the Bible..

John 14:28 "the Father is greater than I”

Matthew 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

1 Corinthians 11:3 "But I should like you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."

1 Corinthians 15:28 "When everything has been subjected to him (God), then the Son himself will be subjected to the One who has subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all."

Acts 3:13 "It is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our ancestors, who has glorified his servant Jesus"

There are more...

 

[Muffled]

Now the real question is: What is, in your mind in the least, the best image of God?
For example, could it be of a supernatural one being?
Please ignore what I wrote if the word 'God' doesn't mean anything in your reality.

I believe that depends on what you mean by image. Jesus is the image of God but not exclusively. There was an incarnation that visited Abraham.

 

[Muffled]

Why do you think so?

He is equal because God is one but God the Father is greater because He inhabits the whole universe while Jesus just inhabits a body.

 

[Soapy]

He is equal because God is one but God the Father is greater because He inhabits the whole universe while Jesus just inhabits a body.

Where do you get the term, ‘God the Father’, from in scriptures?

Is it really meant to say:

• ‘God, … the Father’?
• ‘God, who is the Father’?
• ‘The Father, who is God’?

 

[Soapy]

He is equal because God is one but God the Father is greater because He inhabits the whole universe while Jesus just inhabits a body.

‘Equal’ but not equal’???????

‘The Father is greater…’ but the Son, who is taught by the Father, is granted power by the Father, is glorified by the Father, is ‘Equal’ to the Father????????

I know Trinitarians are confused and desperate but please, let common sense prevail!

 

[Ajax]

He is equal because God is one but God the Father is greater because He inhabits the whole universe while Jesus just inhabits a body.

The concept of the Trinity was used to oppose alternative views of how the three are related and to defend the church against charges of worshiping two or three gods.
Trinity - Wikipedia

 

[wellwisher]

I have been trying to research from the Christian Bible the idea that:

• ‘A son is equal to his Father’

I can, nowhere, find such a schema from Judaism or Christianity but it is relevant to a part of trinitarianism and other ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’ type of ideological beliefs, wherein it is claimed that:

1. ‘Jesus is equal to God because he is the Son of God’
2. ‘Jesus had the same nature as God so he, too, is God’
3. ‘Jesus received all things that the Father had therefore jesus is God’

These are a few of the reasonings I have heard but which carry no evidence from the scriptures... and it is from the scriptures that I seek the answer to:

• Where is this belief shown in the Old and New Testaments

I am asking:

• If the Son receives what he has from the Father, how is the son equal to the Father who gave him what he has?
• Jesus is given all power and authority BY the Father ... but only did a period of time - and even so, the ‘all things’ did not mean ‘absolutely all things’ because the Father’s “Seat of Power” was not part of the deal. This is illustrated by the stories of:

1. Joseph in Egypt given all power and authority to rule over Ha roads Kingdom ... for a period of time until the famine was over’ whence he ‘HANDED BACK POWER AND AUTHORITY TO’ Pharoah. And, Pharoah said to him, ‘EXCEPT FOR MY THRONE, you are to be Pharoah to my people’
2. Mordeciah in Persia (Book of Esther) in which King Xerxes handed over his Rulership to Mordeciah so that Mordeciah could save the Jews on the day of Purim where the Jews in that kingdom were edicted to be destroyed by the wicked Haman who tricked kings Xerxes.
3. Moses, also, was ‘GOD’ for a period of time under Pharoah. THE GOD, YAHWEH said to him that he was to be ‘God to Pharoah’ (read that as you may) and Moses even was given a high priest to mediate between himself and the people (there’s more to this than I’m saying but times and attention doesn’t warrant right now)

What these show is that even if a Father (or God) gives ‘ALL’ or designates another (obviously, a SON OF MAN) to ACT on his behalf, this still doesn’t make the trusted ‘Son’ EQUAL to the Father, to the God, who entrusted him.

Furthermore, what is it then when the Father has more than one Son - are they both (all) equal to each other ... I don’t think any scriptures credits that reasoning - does it?

Lastly, Adam, the first human, (until he sinned) is credited as being:

• ‘SON OF GOD’ (Luke 3:38)

How is it no one say that:

• ‘Adam was equal to God’

And we know the holy angels are:

• ‘Sons of God’

Why are they not said to:

• ‘Be equal to God because they are Sons of God’

And Jesus prays to the Father that the apostles should also become ‘Sons’ of God...

• ‘Equal to God’???

I’m searching for the reasoning behind ‘Son is equal to Father’ in Christianity or tradition of the Jews - or that it is a myth to substantiate a falsehood of trinitarianism.

In a father and son relationship, both their roles evolve with time. It does not remain dad and a baby. After a many decades of work, the father is no longer in his prime, as the son matures and starts to enter his prime. The Father advances to the next stage, such as wisdom, always one step ahead of the son, who one day will also have wisdom. But for now the son is hard at work in his dad's business.

As far as God and the Son, how hard it was to take care of those pesky humans in the OT. The creation is already done and all you have is maintenance. The Father moves onto bigger and better things, and now his son, who had proven his dedication, is taking care of the humans. What was attributed to God the Father in the Old Testament, is no longer being done by the Father, since the Father has advanced to the next stage and his son is now ready to assume his old role. However, since many of the same human problems, are still here, his son, who has learned well, is now in charge of that. If you do the Old Testament math, the son is now the surrogate Father of the humans, in the sense of doing the same work that Father had done; right of passage. The Son has his own style based on love and forgiveness.

The symbolism of father and son is about the right of passage, such as the elderly business owner; ancient of days, giving his son the keys to the business. The Father partially retires in Florida, where he stays active organizing his charity and building new buildings for his college alma mater. His Son is now the active CEO and owner, who runs the business. Someday, the right of passage, will go to his most qualified son or daughter. Then the equator will be grandfather, son and grandchild. The relationship of the key grandchild to grandpa and dad, will play a role in their being chosen; sensible slave put in charge of all the possessions; Holy Spirit.

The Trinity has an archetypical connection to the three generations; Father, Son and then the Holy Spirit.

 

[Soapy]

The concept of the Trinity was used to oppose alternative views of how the three are related and to defend the church against charges of worshiping two or three gods.
Trinity - Wikipedia

What ‘Three’ and where did the concept of ‘Three’ come from? There is nothing in the scriptures about Old Testament about ‘Three’ as one. Was it not from rogue ‘Christian’s’ desiring to proselytise pagans more easily by preying on the multiple-Gods concept envied by their belief system integrated (badly) into the truth - that God is one…. Hence the ideology of:

• ‘We believe in God the Father, maker of heaven and earth… and in Jesus Christ, God the Son, THROUGH WHOM GOD created all things… and in God the Holy Spirit (who isn’t said to be maker of anything!!) but though there are THREE GODS (????) they are yet ONLY ONE GOD (????????)’ (paraphrased)

Trinity: Interesting…. Confusing…. Untrue!!

 

[Soapy]

In a father and son relationship, both their roles evolve with time. It does not remain dad and a baby. After a many decades of work, the father is no longer in his prime, as the son matures and starts to enter his prime. The Father advances to the next stage, such as wisdom, always one step ahead of the son, who one day will also have wisdom. But for now the son is hard at work in his dad's business.

As far as God and the Son, how hard it was to take care of those pesky humans in the OT. The creation is already done and all you have is maintenance. The Father moves onto bigger and better things, and now his son, who had proven his dedication, is taking care of the humans. What was attributed to God the Father in the Old Testament, is no longer being done by the Father, since the Father has advanced to the next stage and his son is now ready to assume his old role. However, since many of the same human problems, are still here, his son, who has learned well, is now in charge of that. If you do the Old Testament math, the son is now the surrogate Father of the humans, in the sense of doing the same work that Father had done; right of passage. The Son has his own style based on love and forgiveness.

The symbolism of father and son is about the right of passage, such as the elderly business owner; ancient of days, giving his son the keys to the business. The Father partially retires in Florida, where he stays active organizing his charity and building new buildings for his college alma mater. His Son is now the active CEO and owner, who runs the business. Someday, the right of passage, will go to his most qualified son or daughter. Then the equator will be grandfather, son and grandchild. The relationship of the key grandchild to grandpa and dad, will play a role in their being chosen; sensible slave put in charge of all the possessions; Holy Spirit.

The Trinity has an archetypical connection to the three generations; Father, Son and then the Holy Spirit.

Do you mean that you think that in time to come the so-called ‘Holy spirit’ will take over from the Son?

 

[1213]

He is equal ...

Even if Jesus is subjugated to God as said in the Bible?

For, "He put all things in subjection under his feet." But when he says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him. When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.
1 Cor. 15:27-28

 

[Ajax]

What ‘Three’ and where did the concept of ‘Three’ come from? There is nothing in the scriptures about Old Testament about ‘Three’ as one. Was it not from rogue ‘Christian’s’ desiring to proselytise pagans more easily by preying on the multiple-Gods concept envied by their belief system integrated (badly) into the truth - that God is one…. Hence the ideology of:

• ‘We believe in God the Father, maker of heaven and earth… and in Jesus Christ, God the Son, THROUGH WHOM GOD created all things… and in God the Holy Spirit (who isn’t said to be maker of anything!!) but though there are THREE GODS (????) they are yet ONLY ONE GOD (????????)’ (paraphrased)

Trinity: Interesting…. Confusing…. Untrue!!

The Old Testament is full of "God's" quotes that He is the only God and no other Gods exist apart from him...However, I suppose it didn't feel right to have the founder of the new religion not being a God. If Jesus was to be accepted as God, it would have been a contradiction to the Old Testament which was accepted as part of the Bible. As such, they developed the unique dogma that the two persons can be one. What is confusing though is what was the need to have the spirit of God declared an individual entity and be declared God too... It's like declaring as god, God's wisdom or omniscience, etc...

 

[Soapy]

The Old Testament is full of "God's" quotes that He is the only God and no other Gods exist apart from him...However, I suppose it didn't feel right to have the founder of the new religion not being a God. If Jesus was to be accepted as God, it would have been a contradiction to the Old Testament which was accepted as part of the Bible. As such, they developed the unique dogma that the two persons can be one. What is confusing though is what was the need to have the spirit of God declared an individual entity and be declared God too... It's like declaring as god, God's wisdom or omniscience, etc...

The original belief did not include the Holy Spirit as being part of the other two - See the apostles creed. It was believed on as an agency like electricity is an agency that powers a device - not a person but a ‘thing’.

But how could it believed that God could be TWO PERSONS - or TWO PERSONS COULD BE ONE GOD?

Indeed, what is the definition of a God?

What is the CONCEPT of A God?

How is there ever an concept of multiple RULERS as many GODS!… or Multiple RULERS as ONE GOD!

There can ONLY EVER BE ONE ultimate ruler… can anyone ever say there is a society on earth of multiple rulerships as ONE RULER! There cannot even be a construct that fits such a false ideology.

Moreover, the false concept dictates that each is EQUAL IN POWER AND AUTHORITY… how? And WHY…. Why would there ever be a need for ‘Multiple ALL POWERFULS… MULTIPLE ALL KNOWINGS…’?

But then trinity declares the Son as IN SUBJECTION as God to the Father as God… no mention of a THIRD… so what is TRINITY? A BINITY OF THREE??? A belief of three equal supposedly all knowing all powerful beings one of whom isn’t all knowing and isn’t all powerful (Concerning the knowledge of the Son, The Father says: ‘I will pour out my spirit on him and he will do my bidding…’, ‘No one knows … but the Father ALONE…!’) and a third supposedly all knowing and all powerful who is even less all knowing and all powerful (Concerning the Spirit, the Son says: ‘It will take of what is mine…’)

 

[Ajax]

The original belief did not include the Holy Spirit as being part of the other two - See the apostles creed. It was believed on as an agency like electricity is an agency that powers a device - not a person but a ‘thing’.

Matthew 28:19, (Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit) as appears in the current gospel, has been amended, because in all Eusebius of Caesarea texts from 300 to 336 AD, there are at least 16 references to Matthew 28:19 and all contain the following text, instead of the current one..""Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."

Specifically in:

Eusebius - Proof of the Gospel, chapter 6 and 7 (3 times).
Eusebius - Church History Chapter 5, paragraph 2
Eusebius - In Praise of Constantine, chapter 16, paragraph 8.
He also mentions it in the Commentary on Psalms (4 times), in Theophany (4 times) and in the Commentary on Isaiah (2 times).

Evidence that the gospel's wording of Matthew's chapter 28:19 has been modified (probably after the Council of Nicaea).

 

[Soapy]

Matthew 28:19, (Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit) as appears in the current gospel, has been amended, because in all Eusebius of Caesarea texts from 300 to 336 AD, there are at least 16 references to Matthew 28:19 and all contain the following text, instead of the current one..""Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."

Specifically in:

Eusebius - Proof of the Gospel, chapter 6 and 7 (3 times).
Eusebius - Church History Chapter 5, paragraph 2
Eusebius - In Praise of Constantine, chapter 16, paragraph 8.
He also mentions it in the Commentary on Psalms (4 times), in Theophany (4 times) and in the Commentary on Isaiah (2 times).

Evidence that the gospel's wording of Matthew's chapter 28:19 has been modified (probably after the Council of Nicaea).

You are right that verses in scriptures have been altered in favour of trinitarianism. It’s incredible that a belief should attempt to maintains is ideology by FAKING its belief.

There are at least two others (obviously more) that Trinitarians hold as truth despite clear evidence that the verses have been altered in order to deceive:

1. ‘And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.’ (1 Tim 3:16)
2. ‘while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,’ (Titus 2:13)

In the first, the King James Version claims that

• It was ‘GOD’ who was ‘SEEN in the flesh’;
• It was ‘GOD’ who was ‘justified in the Spirit’;
• It was ‘GOD’ who ‘SEEN BY ANGELS’;
• It was ‘GOD’ who was ‘RECEIVED UP IN [TO] GLORY’….

Tear all that apart as easily as a damp A4 sheet of paper!

- Scripture says that ‘No one has seen God at any time’;
- God does not need to be justified in Spirit;
- God is ALWAYS SEEN by Angels;
- God is always in Glory and always in Heaven (another version read: ‘Received into heaven in glory’)

Who is this ‘God’ that trinity claims to worship?

The second example is deliberately mis-read. It is claimed to be saying that Jesus is the Great God…. But the verse actually says that we are awaiting ‘the GLORY OF the GREAT GOD’ and the GLORY of God IS… Jesus Christ, the Son. Not that Jesus is the GREAT GOD!!!

Is it nog clear that this is Satans work in trying to make out the Jesus Christ IS GOD ALMIGHTY… Satan tried to BE GOD but failed - so he was trying to get humans to believe and glorify and WORSHIP Jesus Christ AS THE GOD he, Satan, failed to make himself…. To put Jesus on the Mount of God… and overthrow Almighty GOD: The Father : to make believe Jesus is usurping the throne of his heavenly Father…

But Satan will fail and also bring down all those who follow him - as he knows well.

 

[Dimi95]

@Soapy

In Genesis 1:26-27 God says, " 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness.' So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them."

Who or what does the 'us' refer to in this passage?

 

[Dimi95]

- Scripture says that ‘No one has seen God at any time’;

False

John 1:18
θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο.

John 1:18 - Some Patristic Evidence

www.thetextofthegospels.com

Read this link , you have never ever opened anything connected with Trinity , and here you are with your analogy based on your own words.

- God does not need to be justified in Spirit;

Vague
Read Isaiah 40:13-14

- God is ALWAYS SEEN by Angels;

You are correct

- God is always in Glory and always in Heaven (another version read: ‘Received into heaven in glory’)

Then who was talking to Moses?

Who is this ‘God’ that trinity claims to worship?

Malachi 3:5
"So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive the foreigners among you of justice, but do not fear me,” says the Lord Almighty.

It seems to me that you are cluless when Scripture is considered.

But at least you admit that is your own words.

The second example is deliberately mis-read. It is claimed to be saying that Jesus is the Great God…. But the verse actually says that we are awaiting ‘the GLORY OF the GREAT GOD’ and the GLORY of God IS… Jesus Christ, the Son. Not that Jesus is the GREAT GOD!!!

Something Similar with Sunni Muslim understanding of God.
I just don't get it how you put yourself in these boxes..

Is it nog clear that this is Satans work in trying to make out the Jesus Christ IS GOD ALMIGHTY… Satan tried to BE GOD but failed - so he was trying to get humans to believe and glorify and WORSHIP Jesus Christ AS THE GOD he, Satan, failed to make himself…. To put Jesus on the Mount of God… and overthrow Almighty GOD: The Father : to make believe Jesus is usurping the throne of his heavenly Father…

The Epistle of Hymenaeus (270)
Also known as The Epistle of Six Bishops, or, The Epistle to Paul of Samosata, this letter was written and signed by Hymenaeus the bishop of Jerusalem, who presided at the Council of Antioch in 264/268. It was also signed by five other bishops (Theophilus, Theotecnus, Maximus, Proclus, and Bolanus) to express their opposition against the teachings of Paul of Samosata. It was mentioned and summarized by Eusebius of Caesarea.

Paul of Samosata (Greek: Παῦλος ὁ Σαμοσατεύς, lived from 200 to 275 AD) was Bishop of Antioch from 260 to 268 and the originator of the Paulianist heresy named after him. He was a believer in monarchianism, a nontrinitarian doctrine; his teachings reflect adoptionism.

But Satan will fail and also bring down all those who follow him - as he knows well.

Oh Really?

1 Corinthians 15:53-55
"For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: 'Death has been swallowed up in victory'

'Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?'

 

[Ajax]

In Genesis 1:26-27 God says, " 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness.' So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them."

Who or what does the 'us' refer to in this passage?

In Deuteronomy 32 the language originally said that the nations were assigned by El according to the number of his sons and daughters, which fits perfectly with the statement that Israel is Yahweh's inheritance or portion. Yahweh was just another one of El's sons in the old polytheism of Israel.

Also in Genesis, when the human couple ate the fruit of knowledge, God said “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
In Job 1, the sons of gods came to present themselves before the Lord.

I can not really understand how there are people who believe the Old Testament is faultless.