“The Son is equal to his Father”

[Ajax]

The ‘Church’ that I belong to does not use money nor seeks power. It is not an earthly church but spiritual… as Jesus said: ‘My kingdom is not of this world’.....
.....And That, is truth.

Ok, thank you.

 

[Colt]

I’ve always been interested, asked about, but never received a reply to:

• ‘What does it mean to be DIVINE’?

Perhaps you can enlighten me. Thanks.

Deity is the source of all that which is divine.

Divinity is existential and perfect.

Divinity is comprehensible by humans as truth, beauty, and goodness, its correlated in personality as love, mercy, and ministry; disclosed on impersonal levels as justice, power, and sovereignty.

 

[Soapy]

It is the Jehovah's Witness view, and they consider themselves the only Christians, while denying he divinity of Jesus.

But I am not a Jehovah’s Witness.

Posters here TRY TO CLAIM that what I say is JW ideology but that is simply because furthest they know away from trinitarianism… Not the way to judge a belief system!!

 

[Soapy]

Deity is the source of all that which is divine.

Divinity is existential and perfect.

Divinity is comprehensible by humans as truth, beauty, and goodness, its correlated in personality as love, mercy, and ministry; disclosed on impersonal levels as justice, power, and sovereignty.

So you don’t know then!! I do not understand anything of what you just wrote in respect of explaining WHAT Divine is!

‘What IS divinity’? You haven’t said what divinity is… Give me some examples to explain your idea.

What makes Jesus divine as opposed to any other human Being…

Please.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is the Jehovah's Witness view, and they consider themselves the only Christians, while denying he divinity of Jesus.

I don't think that @Soapy is a JW, but I'll let him speak for himself.

There are other Christians besides JWs who do not believe that Jesus is God incarnate.

I believe that Jesus was both divine and human since He has a twofold nature, but I don't believe that Jesus was God in the flesh.
God is spirit, according to the Bible, so God cannot become flesh.
Jesus manifested God on earth and He was a a mirror image of God, but that is not the same thing and becoming God.

 

[Soapy]

I don't think that @Soapy is a JW, but I'll let him speak for himself.

You are right, @Soapy is not a JW.

There are other Christians besides JWs who do not believe that Jesus is God incarnate.

I believe that Jesus was both divine and human since He has a twofold nature, but I don't believe that Jesus was God in the flesh.

I believe you are right that Jesus was not ‘God in the flesh’ since that would mean that God became MORTAL. Note that the TITLE, ‘God’, is that of ‘The Father’; YHWH. And thus it is that false ideology believes that:

• The Father: the Creator, Almighty God, became a Creature in His own Creation!

But please can you define what you mean (what is meant, generally) by ‘Jesus was … Divine’.

What IS Divinity?

God is spirit, according to the Bible, so God cannot become flesh.

Yes, GOD: the Father, YHWH, is Spirit.

Jesus manifested God on earth and He was a a mirror image of God, but that is not the same thing and becoming God.

‘Manifested God’ on earth… What exactly do you mean by that statement?

If you mean that Jesus showed the created world what ‘God is like’ then you are absolutely right. In the well known book, poem, story, of the Trojan war with Greece, ‘The Iliad’, by Homer, a great semi-immortal Greek warrior (Demi-GOD), Achilles, ‘lends’ his impenetrable golden amour to his right-hand-man, Patroclus. Patroclus goes into battle against the Trojans and they cry out in grief, ‘Look, Achilles is in the field [of battle]’. Patroclus fought like Achilles fought, action for action… and the Trojans try to flee in great fear. But it so happens that Patroclus is felled and the Trojans believe they have killed ‘The great God’! But then, having heard the grievous news, Achilles shows himself as alive and well. When the Trojans remove the helmet, they find it is Patroclus.. they wail in deeper grief because now Achilles is ‘wounded’ and his anger is stirred up against those who slew his warrior ‘son’!
Patroclus was GRANTED to put on the armour of Achilles… He WAS NOT Achilles…! But Patroclus ‘manifested’ Achilles on the battle field while wearing Achilles armour… Is that the idea that you mean by ‘Jesus manifested God’ on earth.

An analogy, but a great analogy?!

 

[Colt]

So you don’t know then!! I do not understand anything of what you just wrote in respect of explaining WHAT Divine is!

‘What IS divinity’? You haven’t said what divinity is… Give me some examples to explain your idea.

What makes Jesus divine as opposed to any other human Being…

Please.

I did explain it, it just that you deliberately misunderstand based on some intransigent theology you have.

Here is the dictionary deffinition:

di·vine
[dəˈvīn]

ADJECTIVE

1. of, from, or like God or a god:
   "heroes with divine powers" · "paintings of shipwrecks being prevented by divine intervention"
   
   
   

 

[Soapy]

I did explain it, it just that you deliberately misunderstand based on some intransigent theology you have.

Here is the dictionary deffinition:

di·vine
[dəˈvīn]

ADJECTIVE

1. of, from, or like God or a god:
   "heroes with divine powers" · "paintings of shipwrecks being prevented by divine intervention"
   
   

You really sound like you cannot define what you use so flippantly.

If your belief is that ‘Divine’ means ‘Having powers given by God’ then it may be true except that from how Trinitarians and other religious people use it, it means ‘IS GOD’.

For a start, ‘LIKE GOD’ cannot ever mean ‘IS GOD’.

Next, ‘Divine’ cannot, from your given dictionary definition, bd unique to Jesus Christ since other humans were ‘Given God-like powers FROM GOD’. Moses, Elijah, Elisha, the Apostles, etc., ALSO did MANY MIRACULOUS DEEDS by means of the power of God… thus according to you, they too were "heroes with divine powers"… Divine humans!!

And as for my beliefs being ‘Intransigent’ - Yes, of course… The truth is the truth… The truth IS and CAN ONLY BE ‘Intransigent’!!

 

[Trailblazer]

But please can you define what you mean (what is meant, generally) by ‘Jesus was … Divine’.

What IS Divinity?

It means that God conferred upon Jesus a spiritual nature that ordinary humans do not possess. God assigned a twofold nature upon Jesus, the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual nature, which is born of the substance of God Himself.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

I believe that Jesus got His spiritual nature from God before He was born into this world because the soul of Jesus existed in the spiritual world with God before he was born into this world.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets
The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.

(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

Manifested God’ on earth… What exactly do you mean by that statement?

If you mean that Jesus showed the created world what ‘God is like’ then you are absolutely right.

Yes, that is what I mean. Jesus manifested the attributes of God when He walked the earth, so He showed us what God is like.

 

[Soapy]

It means that God conferred upon Jesus a spiritual nature that ordinary humans do not possess. God assigned a twofold nature upon Jesus, the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual nature, which is born of the substance of God Himself.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

I believe that Jesus got His spiritual nature from God before He was born into this world because the soul of Jesus existed in the spiritual world with God before he was born into this world.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets
The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.

(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

Yes, that is what I mean. Jesus manifested the attributes of God when He walked the earth, so He showed us what God is like.

So Jesus WAS NOT GOD but only expressed the spirit of God …

Is that what you think you are saying when you say that Jesus was divine? That when God endowed Jesus ‘with Holy Spirit and power’ (Acts 10:38), Jesus became divine:

• Scriptures says of the Apostles: “for it is God who works in you to Will and to act in order to fulfil His good purpose.” (Phil 2:13)
• Jesus says of himself: “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,” (Luke 4:18)
• Scriptures says: “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached—how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.” (Acts 10:37-38)
• Scriptures says, concerning the coming Messiah: “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.” (Isaiah 42:1)

What was God’s purpose in anointing Jesus of Nazareth with Holy Spirit and with power?
(P.S. God anointed ‘Jesus of Nazareth’ who then became ‘Jesus [the] Christ’, the Anointed one’.)

When the Apostles were also endowed with the spirit of God at Pentecost, were they also, then, Divine?

 

[Muffled]

Where do you get the term, ‘God the Father’, from in scriptures?

Is it really meant to say:

• ‘God, … the Father’?
• ‘God, who is the Father’?
• ‘The Father, who is God’?

I believe it lies in the way Jesus refers to Him.

 

[Muffled]

‘Equal’ but not equal’???????

‘The Father is greater…’ but the Son, who is taught by the Father, is granted power by the Father, is glorified by the Father, is ‘Equal’ to the Father????????

I know Trinitarians are confused and desperate but please, let common sense prevail!

I believe I am not confused but you seem to be. What is your problem?

 

[Muffled]

Even if Jesus is subjugated to God as said in the Bible?

For, "He put all things in subjection under his feet." But when he says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him. When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.
1 Cor. 15:27-28

I believe so. What is your issue with that?

 

[Trailblazer]

So Jesus WAS NOT GOD but only expressed the spirit of God …

Is that what you think you are saying when you say that Jesus was divine?

Yes, that is what I mean.

What was God’s purpose in anointing Jesus of Nazareth with Holy Spirit and with power?
(P.S. God anointed ‘Jesus of Nazareth’ who then became ‘Jesus [the] Christ’, the Anointed one’.)

I would say the purpose was so that Jesus could release the Holy Spirit into the world.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

When the Apostles were also endowed with the spirit of God at Pentecost, were they also, then, Divine?

No, I don't think the apostles were divine, although they reflected the divine spirit of Christ.

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?

Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

Some Answered Questions, p. 108

25: THE HOLY SPIRIT

 

[Soapy]

I believe it lies in the way Jesus refers to Him.

Jesus never ever referred to His Heavenly Father as ‘God the Father’.

‘God the Father’ is not even linguistically correct as a description. The point is that it should show an adjective:

• ‘God: The Father’
• ‘God (the Father)’
• ‘God, the Father’
• ‘God, who is the Father’
• ‘The Father [is] the one who is our God’
• ‘The Father, God, the Almighty one…’

Do you say:

• ‘God: The Holy Spirit’
• ‘God (the Holy Spirit)’
• ‘God, the Holy Spirit’
• ‘God, who is the Holy Spirit ’
• ‘The Holy Spirit [is] the one who is our God’
• ‘The Holy Spirit, God, the Almighty one…’

Or:

• ‘God: Jesus Christ’
• ‘God (Jesus Christ)’
• ‘God, Jesus Christ’
• ‘God, who is Jesus Christ’
• ‘Jesus Christ [is] the one who is our God’
• ‘Jesus Christ, God, the Almighty one…’

And where in scriptures do you get the idea that the Spirit of God is a person?

 

[Soapy]

Yes, that is what I mean.

I would say the purpose was so that Jesus could release the Holy Spirit into the world.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

No, I don't think the apostles were divine, although they reflected the divine spirit of Christ.

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?

Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

Some Answered Questions, p. 108

25: THE HOLY SPIRIT

Binding up ideology in floral poetic writings that can be interpreted as each and every reader believes it to be, is a great way to create a deceitful belief system.

I didn’t realise you belonged to the (to me, unheard of) Bahai’i religion.

I have no dealing with them and I’ve read enough from other dialogues to dismiss it outright. To me, it sounds like a human creation attempting to create a religious movement on the level of Hinduism and Islam, of which I have no dealings either.

As with all pseudo-Christian belief systems there are many elements that I would agree with and have done - but that’s exactly why I avoid these ideologies - they are misleading at their core.

The simplest philosophy applies:

• ‘The best lies are composed of 95% truth…’

 

[Trailblazer]

And where in scriptures do you get the idea that the Spirit of God is a person?

I don't know if that is in biblical scriptures, but it is in the Baha'i scriptures that Jesus was the Spirit of God, which would mean that the Spirit of God is a person.

“This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow….”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 19

“WE, verily, have come for your sakes, and have borne the misfortunes of the world for your salvation. Flee ye the One Who hath sacrificed His life that ye may be quickened? Fear God, O followers of the Spirit (Jesus), and walk not in the footsteps of every divine that hath gone far astray… Open the doors of your hearts. He Who is the Spirit (Jesus) verily, standeth before them.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 92

The Spirit of God is a title for Jesus, since Jesus has God's Holy Spirit.
However, that does not mean that the Holy Spirit is a person.
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God that emanated from Jesus.

 

[Trailblazer]

The simplest philosophy applies:

• ‘The best lies are composed of 95% truth…’

It is the Christian doctrines that are lies.
One of those lies is that Jesus is God.
Another lie is that Jesus is the only way and Christianity is the only true religion...
That is the biggest lie of all time and it is pure arrogance that says that all the other religions are false.

Another lie is that Jesus rose physically from the dead.
Another lie is that the same man Jesus is going to return to earth.
The list goes on.

“Well might Christ warn His followers that false prophets would arise and misinterpret His teachings so as to delude even the most earnest and intelligent of His believers: from early times Christians have disputed about Christian truth in councils, in sects, in wars.

To sum up, if Christians say “our acts may be wrong,” they say truly. If they say “however our Gospel is right” they are quite wrong. The false prophets have corrupted the Gospel as successfully as they have the deeds and lives of Christian people.”

The False Prophets, pp. 25-30

 

[Treasure Hunter]

I believe you are right that Jesus was not ‘God in the flesh’ since that would mean that God became MORTAL.

It’s inconceivable to you that mortality could be a chapter in the story of God?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

• If the Son receives what he has from the Father, how is the son equal to the Father who gave him what he has?
• Jesus is given all power and authority BY the Father ... but only did a period of time - and even so, the ‘all things’ did not mean ‘absolutely all things’ because the Father’s “Seat of Power” was not part of the deal.

A few things:

-The only way to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven is through unification with the father.

-The good shepherd prepares the way for the sheep but enters last, meaning he goes back for his sheep. In other words, the son unifies with the father, but then once unified, he sends the spirit of the son back to those left behind.

-Those left behind can then unify first with the spirit of the son and next with the spirit of the father, enter into the new kingdom, then they go back for the others left behind by sending the spirit of the son.

-This process repeats until all enter the new kingdom as one. The first will be last and the last will be first. None get left behind.

-When the son unifies with the father, the two stories become one. When two stories become one, they don’t just become one at the point where they unify but rather across time, including the past. When the story of a human being unifies with the story of the son (spirit) and the father (spirit), then man becomes spirit and spirit becomes man. Across all time.