“Christianized” mysticism

[Shiranui117]

I can say the same thing to you...find me one example of a born-again believers who waged war on others in defense of their one true God. Born again believers know that no one can be forced to believe the reality and truths of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. It is a matter of personal change which takes place in one's heart and can never be forced.

I do know that the Catholic Church has a history of many who have lived the monastic life and not only have they practiced violent abuse against themselves as some kind of extra-biblical offer of suffering to God, but the Church has a history of internal abuse and going to war illegitimately in the name of Christ and forcing people around the world into Catholicism..

Monks violently abusing themselves is actually forbidden, even in the Catholic Church; I have no idea how or why that got started.

The Church only had a bad history when it got entangled with the State; the atrocities (e.g. going to war in the name of Christ or of Christianity) you speak of were the result of the unholy marriage of Church and State.

 

[Open_Minded]

On the concept of being "Born Again"

Born again or born anew?

Published in the Washington Post, August 27, 2012
This is the story of a fundamentalist Christian, turned decidedly … unfundamentalist.

For a long time, the “certainties” of religious texts were a cornerstone of my life. But my entry points to organized religion couldn’t be more different: On the one hand, I was involved in the Charismatic Movement, with its emphasis on salvation and ecstatic experiences of religion. On the other, being a South African in the 1970s, there were my anti-apartheid activist friends, who rooted their faith in a God of inclusive love and justice. These two powerful forces would ultimately compete for my attention, and the choice would be one of living with a guarded heart, or a heart of compassion. ....

But I didn’t make that choice until a conversation with my maternal grandmother, Masha. (Also known as Granny – well, to me anyway.) On my return visits home to Cape Town from college, our chats always circled back to the question of whether in heaven she would see my grandfather and her first-born child, who had died in infancy. I responded with: “Only if they are born again.”

It was a cruel pronouncement. One in which I presumed to be judge and guardian of truth.

My answer was born out of the story of Nicodemus, who approached Jesus eager for answers in his search for truth. I had memorized the incorrect translation of the answer Nicodemus received, to be “born again.” Words that have been the rallying cry for religious executioners of the human spirit. Not surprisingly, Granny would cry at my certainty, seeing as how I just pronounced eternal separation from those she loved.
.....

The irony is that the apartheid system was enforced with a dubious theology, claiming that scripture justified its violent attempts at dehumanizing people based on race. I was gladly claiming my voice of opposition to proof texts used to propel an ideology of exclusion, death and judgment based on race. I believed that the proof text justifications of apartheid were spurious at best, and an affront to spiritual notions of love, mercy, justice and kindness.

And yet? A small part of me hung onto that dubious theology. You can understand the problematic contradiction this set up....

But at the funeral of the black South African leader Steve Biko in 1977, I received a life-altering challenge. Desmond Tutu invited the mourners to be partners in the enterprise of love for all. Not simply straight people. Or white people. Or those “born again” (whatever that meant). All.

I began understanding intuitively that the texts of judgment and exclusion that marred the human spirit were not the only path. As I scoured the texts of my own Christian tradition with Tutu’s ever-present invitation, the insistent urging to a love that trumped all other questions was striking. Christian mystics like Julian of Norwich and Hildegard of Bingen reinforced that revelation.

Soon, I discovered mystics of the Jewish tradition too, along with their Sufi counterparts. They all pointed to a spirituality of generous love and joy that stood in stark contrast to the dour joyless judgment of text abuse that I had hurled at Granny. I began a lifelong discovery to a place beyond religion, and rather to a field of spiritual aliveness: one that invited me into the happiness that the Buddhist tradition pointed to, as well as the peace that Jesus spoke of from his Hebrew grounding.

In a transformative moment of grace, I discovered that the proof text about being “born again” was correctly translated as “born anew.” The landscape of my spirituality and life were radically shifted by the correct translation, and I suspect it might be for others as well. Nicodemus was not sent away to be damned, but to discover transformative love in the reality of his life story and the world around him.

Now, I had to face the truth that the text with which I had condemned myself and others was a tool for reinforcing religious control by those who presumed to be mediators of the sacred. The discovery of the correct translation beckoned me to replace damnation with a generous hearted and compassionate way of being in the complex muddle and joy of being human.

And what was the first thing I did? Apologize to Granny, of course.

When I stopped clutching to those proof texts of long ago, we embraced and cried together. And then, as if to reinforce the truth of those sacred texts of love and acceptance, she held me and said, “I love you, Robert.”

Interesting lessons to be learned from a former fundamentalist "born again" Christian.

 

[Windwalker]

On the concept of being "Born Again"

Born again or born anew?

Interesting lessons to be learned from a former fundamentalist "born again" Christian.

That was great. :bow:

 

[Open_Minded]

That was great. :bow:

Thanks Windwalker - it is amazing how an open heart can lead to a rebirth of the spirit. This gentleman left his heart open to love and compassion. Love and compassion for his granny as well as love and compassion of human beings impacted by the apartheid system. He saw first hand how the dubious theology was causing pain, as a result he opened his heart to LOVE to COMPASSION and was born anew.

 

[InChrist]

On the concept of being "Born Again"

Born again or born anew?

Interesting lessons to be learned from a former fundamentalist "born again" Christian.

Whether the word is translated again or anew, the meaning is the same, one must be born of the Spirit (John 3:6-7), receive and believe in Jesus Christ to become children of God, born not of flesh, blood, or the will of man, but born of God (John 1:12-13). What is regeneration according to the Bible?

According to the scriptures, just a few verses further, this does not exclude anyone regardless of race. Everyone is welcome to put their faith and trust in the Savior God sent to the world...

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. (John 3:16-17)

 

[InChrist]

So... you think you "know" God... you don't need any more insight to THIS that we call GOD????? That is nothing short of arrogance.

I am interested in hearing about the THIS you call God?

I am sorry if you think I am arrogant for believing the words of Jesus... Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again (or anew, doesn’t change the meaning), he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3; Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again(John 3:7) or ...“Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 18:3) and... But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12-13). And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Or the apostles Paul and John:

For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 4:6

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. 1 John 5:20

What I also know is the love of God and the power of His deliverance in my life. I was lost in the bondage of sin and deception of new age, occult, and cultic beliefs. I read the Bible with a metaphysical slant along with the interpretations of various cults. Then one day I was saved and Jesus delivered me...He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love

I do ... that's not the point. I just have no reason to believe that you qualify to give me the answers I seek. Every question you've asked of me reveals someone who think she has the "inside track" to God because she's "saved".

I don’t qualify to give you answers. I’m just saying I believe God’s revealed word has clear answers.

Let us be VERY clear here InChrist - I blame the Bible for nothing. I blame the arrogance of human beings who think they have the "TRUE" understanding of the Bible and use their understanding of the Bible to justify violence towards other human beings. It is that dynamic which causes me to be very leery of anyone who thinks they have all the answers.

Well, then on this we are in agreement.

I seriously can't believe you asked that question - but you did and here's your answer

[FONT=&quot]I have my doubts about the authenticity of the quote supposedly made by George Bush. The words sound more like a paraphrase by Nabil Shaath, the Palestinian foreign minister with an obvious motive to slant Bush’s words, which were quoted by the liberal UK press. Besides, I have reasons to wonder whether or not George Bush is a born-again Christian.

[/FONT]

Beyond that ... let's look at this whole "born-again" Christian superiority complex. When someone self-identifies themselves as Christian to me, I take them at their word. Why would anyone self-identify as Christian if they did not take the label seriously.

[FONT=&quot]That is a question I have, also

[/FONT]

It amazes me that born-again Christians have a litmus test for TRUE Christianity. It is revealed in questions like this:



The arrogance portrayed in that question is astonishing - it is one of the reasons I refuse to answer. If I don't need a litmus test from you, why do you need one from me (or anyone else for that matter)?

[/quote]

It is not a litmus test. The testimony that Jesus is the Savior who paid for the sins of the world is the message of the New Testament and has been the belief of Christians since the time of Christ. I don’t understand why you would find a question related to Jesus Christ as your Savior so astonishing if you claim the title of Christian.

 

[InChrist]

But, just as we speak to God in prayer, God can speak back. Surely you would agree with this?

I believe God can speak back, but that He does so primarily through His word. Often times when I am pray and seek answers from God a scriptures verse or passage will come to mind. I do not believe that God gives new revelation or answers that are in contradiction ti His already revealed word. If I have thought which I know in in variance with the scriptures, then I know that thought is ungodly and from the enemy. For example many people involved with contemplative prayer and meditation are receiving a common theme revealed in their meditative experiences that... God is one with all, that all religions are one at their mystical level, that all are God or need to realize their God nature, or similar such thoughts which are in direct contradiction to the scriptures.

This is largely true; Christian meditation is not the same as Buddhist or Hindu meditation. But there is also a spiritual practice in Orthodox Christianity known as hesychasm, which comes from the Greek word meaning "silence/stillness." But even this is not the same kind of "stillness" as practiced in the Dharmic religions. You can read more about Hesychasm here.

This is also true; the point of hesychasm and other monastic spiritual practice is to make progress on the way of theosis, which is the process of becoming more and more like Christ; as several Saints have said, "God became man, so that man may become god." We are to become by grace what God is by nature; that is, holy, without blemish, humble, peaceful, sharing in God's eternal Life, love and presence, and being filled with the Divine Light.

[/quote]

Thank you for the link, it was interesting and informative. Yet, I still don't see too much difference between the Hesychasm practice and the meditative practices of Eastern traditions. When I read the scriptures I see no example of Christians performing or advocating monastic spiritual practices to grow more like Christ. On the contrary, they scriptures seem to repeatedly stress that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to believers and the Holy Spirit dwells within us leading us in living the new life. It appears to me that it is in following the guidance of the Holy Spirit in the midst of everyday life situations that one dies to self and becomes more Christ-like, rather than ...the "inner focus and blocking of the physical senses" or the
" primary task of the Hesychast is to engage in mental ascesis'.

 

[Shiranui117]

I believe God can speak back, but that He does so primarily through His word. Often times when I am pray and seek answers from God a scriptures verse or passage will come to mind. I do not believe that God gives new revelation or answers that are in contradiction ti His already revealed word. If I have thought which I know in in variance with the scriptures, then I know that thought is ungodly and from the enemy.

Agreed here.

For example many people involved with contemplative prayer and meditation are receiving a common theme revealed in their meditative experiences that... God is one with all, that all religions are one at their mystical level, that all are God or need to realize their God nature, or similar such thoughts which are in direct contradiction to the scriptures.

Yeah, no, that's not the teaching of the Church. We are called to become more and more like God--Jesus said that we should be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect in Matthew 5, and Peter says that we should become "partakers of the divine nature," and we are called to work with God in order to straighten out the image of God within us that has been distorted by sin. We are called to be renewed in the likeness of God.

Thank you for the link, it was interesting and informative. Yet, I still don't see too much difference between the Hesychasm practice and the meditative practices of Eastern traditions. When I read the scriptures I see no example of Christians performing or advocating monastic spiritual practices to grow more like Christ. On the contrary, they scriptures seem to repeatedly stress that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to believers and the Holy Spirit dwells within us leading us in living the new life.

I've never liked the idea of "imputed righteousness" because it basically states that we don't have to repent of our sins.

The key practice of all monks and hesychasts is repentance, and aligning their wills with God's Will.

It appears to me that it is in following the guidance of the Holy Spirit in the midst of everyday life situations that one dies to self and becomes more Christ-like, rather than ...the "inner focus and blocking of the physical senses" or the
" primary task of the Hesychast is to engage in mental ascesis'.

Take up your seat on a high place and watch, if only you know how, and then you will see in what manner, when, whence, how many and what kind of thieves come to enter and steal your clusters of grapes. When the watchman grows weary, he stands up and prays; and then he sits down again and courageously takes up his former task.
​

This passage means that we are to be vigilant against sin, NOT that hesychasm is an intellectual practice that doesn't involve our entire being.

Here's a better source that's actually Orthodox and knows what it's talking about.

Especially see here:

In practice, the Hesychastic prayer bears some superficial resemblance to mystical prayer or meditation in Eastern religions (e.g., Buddhism and Hinduism, especially Yoga), although this similarity is often overly emphasized in popular accounts.
For example, it may involve specific body postures and be accompanied by very deliberate breathing patterns. It involves acquiring an inner stillness, ignoring the physical senses. The hesychasts interpreted Christ's injunction in the Gospel of Matthew to "go into your closet to pray" to mean that they should ignore sensory input and withdraw inwards to pray. It often includes many repetitions of the Jesus Prayer, "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me[, a sinner].". While some might compare it with a mantra, to use the Jesus Prayer in such a fashion is to violate its purpose. One is never to treat it as a string of syllables for which the "surface" meaning is secondary. Likewise, hollow repetition is considered to be worthless (or even spiritually damaging) in the hesychast tradition.

By "ignoring sensory input," it is meant to not succumb to the distractions and temptations of the flesh, as said numerous times throughout Scripture. We're to pay our fleshly wants and needs no heed, but are instead to focus on Godly things.

Romans 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

1 Peter 2:11 Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul,

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

Mark 14:38 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

 

[Open_Minded]

Whether the word is translated again or anew, the meaning is the same, one must be born of the Spirit (John 3:6-7), receive and believe in Jesus Christ to become children of God, born not of flesh, blood, or the will of man, but born of God (John 1:12-13)..... yada ... yada....

[FONT=&quot]You are missing the larger point (not that I am surprised – just saddened). You are so caught up in your Bible verses that you missed this man’s entire story:[/FONT]

But I didn’t make that choice until a conversation with my maternal grandmother, Masha. (Also known as Granny – well, to me anyway.) On my return visits home to Cape Town from college, our chats always circled back to the question of whether in heaven she would see my grandfather and her first-born child, who had died in infancy. I responded with: “Only if they are born again.”

It was a cruel pronouncement. One in which I presumed to be judge and guardian of truth.

The above is just ONE paragraph where he is describing a very important spiritual growing. He found himself telling his dear grandmother that she would be separated from her beloved husband and first-born child for eternity because they weren’t “born again”. Seriously – how do you feel about this????

Do you also believe that if a baby dies in infancy his/her mother will not know him/her in heaven? If you do – how deeply sad that is. And how about Granny’s departed husband? How could she ever truly be at peace in heaven if her husband and child were not with her simply because they were not “born again”??? Do you honestly believe that lovers for life would be separated in eternity if one were not “born again”????

You entirely missed that this dynamic was partly to blame for this man questioning the dubious theology he had been taught.

You also completely missed this point in his story:

The irony is that the apartheid system was enforced with a dubious theology, claiming that scripture justified its violent attempts at dehumanizing people based on race. I was gladly claiming my voice of opposition to proof texts used to propel an ideology of exclusion, death and judgment based on race. I believed that the proof text justifications of apartheid were spurious at best, and an affront to spiritual notions of love, mercy, justice and kindness.

Again – an example of the Bible being used by “born again” Christians to justify violence. You can dismiss it the same way you dismissed Bush’s using his understanding of God to invade Iraq, but your dismissal doesn’t make it any less real.

And what you are really missing is that Americans are leaving religion at higher rates than in the past. And maybe … InChrist … maybe the reason that “unaffiliated” Americans are on the rise is because they are watching the “Godly” born-again Christians who are so caught up in their Bible verses that they’ve forgotten simple compassion for other human beings (and for God’s creation).

The other thing that you are completely and totally missing is that the very same Bible verses are seen differently by this gentleman once he let’s go of the literalism and legalistic interpretation of the Bible. The very same Bible verses.

What you are missing is that you can quote all the Bible verses you want and will not make a nit-wits worth of difference to those of us who read those same Bible verses but read them from a contemplative (not legalistic) point of view. Your quoting Bible verses does not further your position here. Quite frankly – your quoting Bible verses and ignoring this man’s story entirely further alienates your position because it shows a lack of compassion.

I am interested in hearing about the THIS you call God?

After the way you ignored this man's story, why should I think you have any open-minded/open-hearted interest?

It is not a litmus test. The testimony that Jesus is the Savior who paid for the sins of the world is the message of the New Testament and has been the belief of Christians since the time of Christ. I don’t understand why you would find a question related to Jesus Christ as your Savior so astonishing if you claim the title of Christian.

Call it what you want. One more time you see in the Bible what you see. I see in the Bible what I see. Reading the Bible is a SUBJECTIVE Exercise - not OBJECTIVE. It is entirely possible for another human being to read the very same verses you read and see something entirely different. If it wasn't possible there would not be so many different sects of Christianity.

Should I say to you that when the Bible says "born anew" its talking about mystic union with God, and if a person hasn't had a mystic union with God than they can not be "born anew" they can not have eternal life. When I was "born anew" it was through my contemplative journey, why should my journey be any less valid than your journey simply because you can't relate to it??? Your position is arrogant, it lacks any ability to honestly be interested in another person's story. If you could so blithely ignore the most important points of this gentleman's story - why should I (even for a minute) think that you would treat me any differently?????

 

[Windwalker]

The only litmus test in the Bible is, "By their fruits you shall know them". Arrogance, isolationist, bitter, political wrangling, black and white dogmatic legalism, etc, is not the fruits of the spirit, it is the fruits of the flesh, according to the Bible.

Back when I was a Bible school student in my youth on my way into the ministry, as I earnestly sat taking in everything I could from my instructors about God, desiring with all my heart to know and please God by being true to Him through his Word, a war was waged within me that ripped me apart. It was the war of the Spirit within me, and the words spewed from the pulpits that had everyone in the world but this small group of so-called "Born again" Christians being sent to hell because they didn't read the "plain meaning of the Bible" as they did.

I had not yet learned to trust that Spirit in my heart which gently but persistently told me this was not right, and so I blocked it, since they would also preach that we cannot "trust" the subjective, that you have to rely on what is written on the pages of the Bible - which seems so clear to me - at least in how they so simply framed it (that was an illusion, to say the least!!). So, like that man in OM story, I too sold my soul to this "Truth!!!" they proclaimed holding the Bible high in their hands as they damned everyone, and had to tell my parents that they were going to go to hell.

To this day... so very many years later, I feel grief I could ever have said that to them, even though they are living saints and forgave me back then, knowing I was just an eager youth and sincerely believed it. It hurt them, not for what I said to them, but because they could see the ANGUISH! it created for me. That anguish was ugly. It was not a truth of God. It ripped my heart apart, but not just because of how it made me see not only my own parents, but every other beautiful soul on the planet, but mainly because of how it made me see God! This is not what that Spirit in my soul told me. This was not the God of infinite Grace and compassion that I knew in every fiber of my being.

That man's story, is my story. A shame that was glossed over and not dealt with in this discussion.


I want to add this. The mystical experience is what teaches you to hear and listen to that Spirit. Obviously, reading the "plain meaning of the Bible", leads people into unspiritual anguish (hell).

 

[Windwalker]

I believe God can speak back, but that He does so primarily through His word.

If you hear God speaking, this is the mystical experience. Meditation is what opens you more clearly into that. Just in case you have no idea what meditation, or contemplation is.

Often times when I am pray and seek answers from God a scriptures verse or passage will come to mind.

I cannot begin to tell you how many times a verse from the Bible bubbles up into my conscious mind when I am deep within meditation. Amazing, how all the times I had looked at it and thought I understood it, that it suddenly actually has real depth and meaning! Not the only right or correct or "true" meaning, but one that is open and glistening like a jewel in the sunlight. It takes that earlier "believer" understanding and makes it anemic, and actually besides the point and off looking in the wrong direction.

I guess trying to understand these things using the regular perceptual awareness we "normally" use doesn't give you the insight that a solid meditation practice gives you. That's my experience, to be sure.

I do not believe that God gives new revelation or answers that are in contradiction ti His already revealed word.

Only in contradiction to how you thought you understood them! And rightly so. If all you needed to see God was your plain old rational mind, then why any revelation at all? You should be able to know God without it. "And the invisible things of him through creation are clearly seen and made known". But yet you didn't see, right?

So let's go ahead and call the Bible God's revealed word, as you like. How, with the carnal mind can you possibly hear spiritual truth? You need to hear with the ears of Spirit. It doesn't matter if God put words on a page of a book with typeset letters. If you can't hear the revealed Word in nature, you can't see it on paper!

So how then do you open to the ears of Spirit, except through quieting the rational mind that is too busy listening to itself and its own thoughts to hear with the ears of Spirit? That's what meditation is for. And to dismiss it, is to hinder and block yourself from hearing.

BTW, did you know that prayer is a form of guided meditation? You are probably already meditating to some extent and don't know it, and then attacking others who do. Also, out of curiosity do you practice any of these gifts of the spirit that the charismatic Christians do?

If I have thought which I know in in variance with the scriptures, then I know that thought is ungodly and from the enemy.

But what if it is a correction to the error of understanding you thought was true in your dimly lit thoughts? Isn't it possible that what you are calling as "ungodly and from the enemy", might actually be the Holy Spirit you just shut out and called the devil? FEAR does this. Fear of trusting Spirit to open you to what you cannot, on your own, in your own thinking come to realize.

Maybe you put the face of the devil on God because it is your mind's manifestation of your own fear.

When we speak of being "born again", or "born anew", you have to realize something. In order to be born again, or anew, in both cases you have to die first. You have to come to an end of your trying to understand, giving everything over to God. Reading the pages of the Bible and telling yourself "I've got it! This is the truth, because I can trust what I read!", is not giving yourself over to God's mind. It's relying on your mind.

You clutch and cling to the words, hoping to find security in them. And that comes from fear of letting go and falling into that Abyss of unknowing. Falling into God. Trust me, being a "True Believer", in the sense of holding fast to the "plain meaning of the Bible", is you clinging to your own sense of control of the world. It is perfectly fine to find inner solace in what you read, but then don't in turn abuse that by shutting out what goes beyond how you think about these things, in shutting out God.

For example many people involved with contemplative prayer and meditation are receiving a common theme revealed in their meditative experiences that... God is one with all, that all religions are one at their mystical level, that all are God or need to realize their God nature, or similar such thoughts which are in direct contradiction to the scriptures.

Are they? "I pray Father that they may all be One, just as you are in me and I am in you." Yes, that's the mystic's realization. Oneness. How anti-scriptural is that! What is actually contradicted is your view of what the Bible says. Your view of what the Bible says, is your view.

Don't your views ever change on anything? Isn't it possible your views on the Bible can change as well as you mature and grow? If not, this must be a very fearful and stagnant experience of living.

 

[SageTree]

It's interesting to see the shift, how people open up to dialog when they are spoken to in a peaceful, respectful manner.

:namaste

 

[Open_Minded]

I saw this quote by Nelson Mandela

No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite.

Just like Robert Taylor from the Born again or born anew? story earlier in this thread, Nelson Mandela is from South Africa. As a black man he experienced hatred worse than any of us involved in this thread could probably imagine or relate to. And yet.... he found within himself the compassion and wisdom to understand hatred from his enemies was not their "natural" condition. Nelson Mandela truly knew what it meant to "Love his enemies".

LOVE is universal. It does not know the bounds of religion, politics, race, gender, sexual orientation, etc...

Hate is first defined by boundaries (who is in and who is out) ... to rise to LOVE - we must first release the human defined boundaries. Religion is one human defined boundary - this one boundary has been the architect of innumerable wars, hatred, and violence.

As a contemplative, I find that the discipline of meditation helps me to let go of human defined boundaries and connect with this universal and infinite LOVE that we are all born to seek.

When I read Nelson Mandela's quote it reminded me of this thread. So I am posting it here. Robert Taylor chose LOVE for his Granny over clinging to Bible verses. Robert Taylor chose LOVE of his fellow human beings being discriminated against, during apartheid, over clinging to Bible verses. It is this emphasis on LOVE that should guide us in all that we do, even in the way we read scripture.

1 John 7-21

God Is Love

Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love. God’s love was revealed among us in this way: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins. Beloved, since God loved us so much, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God lives in us, and his love is perfected in us.


By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world. God abides in those who confess that Jesus is the Son of God, and they abide in God. So we have known and believe the love that God has for us.


God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them. Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness on the day of judgment, because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love. We love because he first loved us. Those who say, “I love God,” and hate their brothers or sisters, are liars; for those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen, cannot love God whom they have not seen. The commandment we have from him is this: those who love God must love their brothers and sisters also.

The very same Bible verses can be "seen" or "read" differently by different people. But LOVE transcends our differences. We go to LOVE first. "everyone who loves is born of God and knows God"


Everyone ... everyone.... everyone....


It does not say "every Christian who loves ..... " it does not say "every 'born-again' Christian who loves...." it says EVERYONE.

 

[no-body]

The ultimate irony of course being that the OP utilizes mystical aspects to their religion but refuses to believe they are mystical in origin. Rather than take a bite of the apple you want to craft a duplicate made of wax and worship it instead.

 

[Windwalker]

The ultimate irony of course being that the OP utilizes mystical aspects to their religion but refuses to believe they are mystical in origin. Rather than take a bite of the apple you want to craft a duplicate made of wax and worship it instead.

That's the slight of hand, of course. They say that mystical insight is only for those who started their "orthodox" version of the religion, and nobody else has access to that anymore. They've sealed the cannon of scripture, and taken control of what it means in telling the masses their interpretation of truth as "God's word".

And people buy it. It's simpler to be told the truth, rather than discover it.

 

[InChrist]

The ultimate irony of course being that the OP utilizes mystical aspects to their religion but refuses to believe they are mystical in origin. Rather than take a bite of the apple you want to craft a duplicate made of wax and worship it instead.

Are you a believer in Jesus Christ?

The Same Faith Debates subforum is specifically for debate between members of the same faith. Members that are not part of a same faith debate thread's selected faith may not post at all in those threads.

 

[InChrist]

That's the slight of hand, of course. They say that mystical insight is only for those who started their "orthodox" version of the religion, and nobody else has access to that anymore. They've sealed the cannon of scripture, and taken control of what it means in telling the masses their interpretation of truth as "God's word".

And people buy it. It's simpler to be told the truth, rather than discover it.

I believe it is better to trust the revealed truths of God's word and test the spirits (Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.1 John 4;1) by God's standards, rather than depend on one's subjective, experiential feelings and be deceived by doctrines of demons ( Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons...1 Timothy 4:1)

 

[Shiranui117]

I believe it is better to trust the revealed truths of God's word and test the spirits (Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.1 John 4;1) by God's standards, rather than depend on one's subjective, experiential feelings and be deceived by doctrines of demons ( Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons...1 Timothy 4:1)

Agreed. And this is practiced in Christian mysticism.

 

[InChrist]

Agreed. And this is practiced in Christian mysticism.

It may be that you as an individual agree feelings and experiences should be tested by the scriptures, but I think there are many who believe their own personal experiences take priority.

 

[Windwalker]

I believe it is better to trust the revealed truths of God's word

Which of course is what a group of men sat down and decided should be for you. I don't personally buy the myth that these church councils were divinely inspired to choose what to include. It was deeply political and there were many heated disagreements among those what books to include and which not. The book of Revelation was one that barely made it in.

And then, we are once again back to your view that what you read on the page with your understanding actually understands the truth of it as valid for all other readers. So to say "trust the revealed truths", you are saying you shouldn't question anything you think when you read the words, that you are beyond possible error.

and test the spirits

And how does one test the spirit, except by subjective interpretation. It's not possible any other way.

by God's standards,

And what is that standard? What is the criteria? Isn't it what I brought up to you right from the very first post of mine in this thread? "By their fruits you shall know them". A good tree cannot produce evil fruit, nor can an evil tree produce good fruit.

Here's the thing InChrist, you many not really understand something, it may seem foreign and strange to you, but yet when you see fruits of the spirit being borne, are you going to then turn around and say "It's of the devil, because it doesn't fit my understanding, my reading of the Bible"? Wouldn't that be exactly like those religious folks who accused Jesus of casting out the devil by the power of the devil? And what was his response? "How can a house divided stand?"

Yes, how can the devil produce fruits of the spirit? How can Jesus cast out devils by the devil? How can a house divided stand?

What is the criteria, the standard? Fruits of the Spirit. "For by their fruits you shall know them". Not by the details of their doctrines, nor by how they practice their faith - like practicing mediation. By their fruits shall you know them.

What say you?

rather than depend on one's subjective, experiential feelings and be deceived by doctrines of demons

Now appears the truth of your complaint against meditation in Christianity. It opens you to your subjective self. That is precisely, exactly what God does to you, if we are willing to listen. It is freedom from the prison of fear of our minds into the liberty of spirit. And that liberty is experience only one way first - subjectively. "Make clean first the inside of the cup". The inside, the subjective is the focus of that liberty, or that salvation. And with that liberty comes what? Union with God.

That is entirely subjective first, and then the rest follows suit from the inside to the outside, from the subjective to the objective.

But facing that is fearful, and to say "I can't trust that", says to me someone can't trust the guidance of the Spirit to bring them into that liberty. They imagine the devil will trick them, decieve them. To that I answer, no. Not if you've learned to trust that which is inside. You know, through "testing the spirits", so to speak coming from that place. Meditation is practicing, exercising that ability to discern because it grounds you and centers you in Spirit. Rather than "leaning to your own understanding" as you read and think you interpret the words on the page correctly.

( Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons...1 Timothy 4:1)

And how will you know if you don't hear the voice of the Spirit within, and are somehow thinking you can figure it out by trusting those who tell you how to think and feel? That is making yourself ripe for the plucking. IMHO.